Matronics Email Lists Forum Index Matronics Email Lists
BBS Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists
 
 Get Email Distribution Too!Get Email Distribution Too!    FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

New Z-figure

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> AeroElectric-List
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest





PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 10:48 am    Post subject: New Z-figure Reply with quote

Quote:
Quote:
The proposed new z-figure will offer all the advantages
of Z-12 (originally designed for TC aircraft) and
Z-13 combined.

What's the timeframe on this being published?

--Rick


I've been stirring that pot for several weeks and
I think I'm getting close. Here's revision 3
to the drawing . . .

http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z02P3_Preliminary.pdf

Critical review most welcome . . .



Bob . . .


- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
Back to top
markwheelermd(at)icloud.c
Guest





PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 11:46 am    Post subject: New Z-figure Reply with quote

Bob,Is it possible to obtain a software version of your electric symbols if we want to spin our own variant of your z-diagrams?
Mark

Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 18, 2018, at 11:47 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
The proposed new z-figure will offer all the advantages
of Z-12 (originally designed for TC aircraft) and
Z-13 combined.

What's the timeframe on this being published?

--Rick


I've been stirring that pot for several weeks and
I think I'm getting close. Here's revision 3
to the drawing . . .

http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z02P3_Preliminary.pdf

Critical review most welcome . . .



Bob . . .


- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
Back to top
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest





PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 12:32 pm    Post subject: New Z-figure Reply with quote

At 02:46 PM 10/18/2018, you wrote:
Quote:
Bob,
Is it possible to obtain a software version of your electric symbols if we want to spin our own variant of your z-diagrams?
Mark


https://tinyurl.com/og7ztjl




Bob . . .


- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
Back to top
markwheelermd(at)icloud.c
Guest





PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 1:22 pm    Post subject: New Z-figure Reply with quote

Thank you!!
Quote:
On Oct 18, 2018, at 1:31 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:
At 02:46 PM 10/18/2018, you wrote:
Quote:
Bob, Is it possible to obtain a software version of your electric symbols if we want to spin our own variant of your z-diagrams? Mark
https://tinyurl.com/og7ztjl
Bob . . .



- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
Back to top
ceengland7(at)gmail.com
Guest





PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 6:32 pm    Post subject: New Z-figure Reply with quote

On 10/18/2018 1:47 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:

Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
The proposed new z-figure will offer all the advantages
of Z-12 (originally designed for TC aircraft) and
Z-13 combined.

What's the timeframe on this being published?

--Rick


I've been stirring that pot for several weeks and
I think I'm getting close. Here's revision 3
to the drawing . . .

http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z02P3_Preliminary.pdf

Critical review most welcome . . .



Bob . . .
Assuming this the one for electronic injection electrically dependent engines, is there any merit in a separate bus for the engine? I'm trying to do this in my auto-conversion powered RV-7. My desire and logic (or what I hope is logic Smile ) is that the airframe can go dark and the engine will still run, with an alternator charging the battery. I'm trying to mimic what you see in a 'typical' airframe with a magneto ignition a/c engine, where the master can be flipped off and the engine still runs.

I have a high current 'engine master' switch that directly connects the battery to the engine bus, and a conventional looking master contactor that feeds the 'aircraft bus'. Only the starter is fed by the master contactor; all other engine functions are fed by the engine master switch. One alternator conventionally feeds the load side of the master contactor; the other (identical model) alternator feeds through its alternator contactor to the battery side of the master contactor. There is a high current crossfeed switch between the two buses, to cover the possibility of 'engine master' switch failure.

Am I overthinking it?

Charlie
Virus-free. www.avast.com [url=#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2] [/url]


- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
Back to top
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest





PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 8:00 pm    Post subject: New Z-figure Reply with quote

Quote:
I have a high current 'engine master' switch that directly connects the battery to the engine bus, and a conventional looking master contactor that feeds the 'aircraft bus'. Only the starter is fed by the master contactor; all other engine functions are fed by the engine master switch. One alternator conventionally feeds the load side of the master contactor; the other (identical model) alternator feeds through its alternator contactor to the battery side of the master contactor. There is a high current crossfeed switch between the two buses, to cover the possibility of 'engine master' switch failure.



If it were my airplane, I'd run engine critical loads
directly from the battery bus with each of those loads
enjoying it's own feeder protection and switch. This
keeps the engine running with all other switches off.
No relays or contactors in series with the feeders. The
Z02 battery bus enjoys THREE energy sources with minimal
sharing of hardware. All three sources are pre-flight
testable.`



Bob . . .


- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
Back to top
Av8rrob



Joined: 24 Mar 2017
Posts: 1

PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 3:42 am    Post subject: Re: New Z-figure Reply with quote

Bob, is is possible to change the switch configuration from off/bat/ bat+ pri alt , to off/batt/ batt +alt; then change the second switch to selecting either primary or secondary alternator? It would seem to be a bit easier operationaly that way. What do you think?

Rob


- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest





PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 4:28 am    Post subject: New Z-figure Reply with quote

At 06:42 AM 10/19/2018, you wrote:
Quote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Av8rrob" <av8rrob(at)gmail.com>

Bob, is is possible to change the switch configuration from off/bat/ bat+ pri alt , to off/batt/ batt +alt; then change the second switch to selecting either primary or secondary alternator? It would seem to be a bit easier operationaly that way. What do you think?

That 'mixes' controls between two systems which,
by legacy design goals, should be as independent
from each other as possible.



Bob . . .


- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
Back to top
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest





PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 4:29 am    Post subject: New Z-figure Reply with quote

At 10:59 PM 10/18/2018, you wrote:
Quote:
Quote:
I have a high current 'engine master' switch that directly connects the battery to the engine bus, and a conventional looking master contactor that feeds the 'aircraft bus'. Only the starter is fed by the master contactor; all other engine functions are fed by the engine master switch. One alternator conventionally feeds the load side of the master contactor; the other (identical model) alternator feeds through its alternator contactor to the battery side of the master contactor. There is a high current crossfeed switch between the two buses, to cover the possibility of 'engine master' switch failure.


If it were my airplane, I'd run engine critical loads
directly from the battery bus with each of those loads
enjoying it's own feeder protection and switch. This
keeps the engine running with all other switches off.
No relays or contactors in series with the feeders. The
Z02 battery bus enjoys THREE energy sources with minimal
sharing of hardware. All three sources are pre-flight
testable.`

Can you describe the engine's electrical
feeders?

Does the system have any redundant features
like pri/sec ECU, dual fuel pumps, etc?


Bob . . .


- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
Back to top
Tundra10



Joined: 14 Jun 2010
Posts: 90
Location: Scarborough, Ontario

PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 5:07 am    Post subject: New Z-figure Reply with quote

Bob,

I have always wondered why the feed to the main alternator field
breaker are different sizes on each side of the breaker. This is
unchanged from earlier versions.

I assume the Ebus brown out booster is significantly cheaper than the
TCW Intelligent Power Stabilizer ?
I don't know what the internal failure modes are, but their wiring
diagram shows it directly wired in at all times, rather than being
switched out with a relay.
The think the biggest advantage of the IPS is that it boosts the
voltage as the battery sags after an alternator failure, which doesn't
apply to this architecture, but it does supply a boost during starting.

Jeff Page
Dream Aircraft Tundra #10
Quote:
Time: 11:48:16 AM PST US
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: New Z-figure
>> The proposed new z-figure will offer all the advantages
>> of Z-12 (originally designed for TC aircraft) and
>> Z-13 combined.
>
> What's the timeframe on this being published?
>
> --Rick
I've been stirring that pot for several weeks and
I think I'm getting close. Here's revision 3
to the drawing . . .

http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z02P3_Preliminary.pdf

Critical review most welcome . . .
Bob . . .


- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
ceengland7(at)gmail.com
Guest





PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 5:38 am    Post subject: New Z-figure Reply with quote

On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 7:33 AM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:

Quote:
At 10:59 PM 10/18/2018, you wrote:
Quote:
Quote:
I have a high current  'engine master' switch that directly connects the battery to the engine bus, and a conventional looking master contactor that feeds the 'aircraft bus'. Only the starter is fed by the master contactor; all other engine functions are fed by the engine master switch. One alternator conventionally feeds the load side of the master contactor; the other (identical model) alternator feeds through its alternator contactor to the battery side of the master contactor.  There is a high current crossfeed switch between the two buses, to cover the possibility of 'engine master' switch failure.

 
If it were my airplane, I'd run engine critical loads
directly from the battery bus with each of those loads
enjoying it's own feeder protection and switch. This
keeps the engine running with all other switches off.
No relays or contactors in series with the feeders. The
Z02 battery bus enjoys THREE energy sources with minimal
sharing of hardware. All three sources are pre-flight
testable.`

  Can you describe the engine's electrical
  feeders?

  Does the system have any redundant features
  like pri/sec ECU, dual fuel pumps, etc?


  Bob . . .
Please forgive the rough looking drawing; I've never had time to learn a cad program, so I tweaked a z drawing with MS Paint to create the attached. Ignore the fused feeder values on the engine bus; most are artifacts from my cut & paste operation. Both alternators in the drawing are auto-style internally regulated; the engine comes with an IR alternator, and I just hung a 2nd where the air conditioner compressor used to reside. As yet unresolved in this draft is the fact that both OV modules can 'see' both alternators. My original intent was to run both alternators all the time, but I may modify that idea to primary/backup.
My controller (from Real World Solutions, specifically for Mazda rotary engines) does have primary/secondary controllers in one box, but a single power feed to the controllers. The RWS controllers have been set up this way for over 20 years. Over the years, multiple fliers have had controller issues requiring switching to the backup controller, but none have ever had a power supply failure to the box caused by an issue with one controller. If the controller box had separate power feeds to each controller, it would obviously beg for running one from the a/c bus, but I'm not sure that would be a good thing, from the standpoint of trying to keep the systems  similar (as possible) to old habit driven pilots. The controllers' control of the injectors & ignition coils is switched by an external control, which drives a bank of internal relays to do the switching (I believe this is how the ones for a/c engines do it, as well). Power to each injector & coil is individually fused; the controller switches the ground side of the injectors/coils.   There are dual Walbro high pressure fuel pumps, each with it's own fuse/switch. 
The choice to have an engine master was driven by the same logic mentioned earlier. Just as the airframe can go dark without affecting the engine, a typical a/c can shut off the engine by turning a key or flipping a pair of mag switches. The engine master switch is my 'mag switch'. But I'm not married to this, is there good reason to change?
If the above isn't clear, I can try to do a rough drawing of power flow to the engine's power feeders.
Charlie


- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List



2alt_draft.jpg
 Description:
 Filesize:  141.24 KB
 Viewed:  394 Time(s)

2alt_draft.jpg


Back to top
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest





PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 5:48 am    Post subject: New Z-figure Reply with quote

At 08:06 AM 10/19/2018, you wrote:
Quote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jeff Page <jpx(at)qenesis.com>

Bob,

I have always wondered why the feed to the main alternator field
breaker are different sizes on each side of the breaker. This is
unchanged from earlier versions.

Because the hot side is a bus extension with recommended
protection. 20AWG fuselinkwire is readily available now
so a 20GFLW followed by a 16AWG extension is called for
up to the breaker. After that, it's just alternator field
loads.

Quote:
I assume the Ebus brown out booster is significantly cheaper than the
TCW Intelligent Power Stabilizer

Yes . . . $10 vs. $hundreds$

Quote:
I don't know what the internal failure modes are, but their wiring
diagram shows it directly wired in at all times, rather than being
switched out with a relay.

? It's expected to funtion and powered only while
the starter button is depressed. Given that it functions
ONLY during cranking, then there are no significant
failure modes. It gets pre-flight tested but is not
needed in flight. If it craps, there are no safety
implications to the rest of the ship's electro-whizzies
or comfortable termination of flight.

Quote:
The think the biggest advantage of the IPS is that it boosts the
voltage as the battery sags after an alternator failure, which doesn't
apply to this architecture, but it does supply a boost during starting.

Yes . . . and why do you want to boost the voltage with
a dead alternator? Recall that the brown-out issue is
based on battery voltage sagging BELOW a brown-out threshold
of the electro-whizzy during starter inrush. Except while
cranking, the battery is expected to supply the legacy
adopted and understood supply voltage of 10-12 volts.

By the time a battery drops to 10.5 or thereabouts, it's
95% used up. All electro-whizzies qualified for aircraft
operate quite happily down to 10.5 and usually below . . .
so boosting bus voltage during alternator out conditions
only adds complexity and increased energy consumption.

When the brown-out issue first reared its ugly head
about 10 years ago, the energy budget for preventing
brown-out reset was small. The resourceful Eric Jones
crafted an array of super-caps that would grunt loads
to the victimized devices for the few milliseconds that
the battery was suffering starter-sag.

But it seems that more and more devices are being
offered to the OBAM aviation community that suffer
the same short coming. So assuming the builder objects
to brown-out resets. then its left to us to craft
a band-aid to accomplish a design goal that should
have been built into the electro-whizzy in the first
place. The capacitor array is less practical and
more expensive than the architecture proposed in
Z02. MUCH less expensive than the TCW approach.


Bob . . .


- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
Back to top
ceengland7(at)gmail.com
Guest





PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 5:51 am    Post subject: New Z-figure Reply with quote

Jeff, that 'after alternator failure' voltage boost might buy you a few seconds (as in less than 10) longer operation beyond typical low voltage shutdown. When the energy is depleted from the battery, it's gone. Using a 'switcher' on a virtually dead battery when it's down to 9 or 10 volts will just drive it down to low single digit volts almost instantly.
On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 8:13 AM Jeff Page <jpx(at)qenesis.com (jpx(at)qenesis.com)> wrote:

Quote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jeff Page <jpx(at)qenesis.com (jpx(at)qenesis.com)>

Bob,

I have always wondered why the feed to the main alternator field 
breaker are different sizes on each side of the breaker.  This is 
unchanged from earlier versions.

I assume the Ebus brown out booster is significantly cheaper than the 
TCW Intelligent Power Stabilizer ?
I don't know what the internal failure modes are, but their wiring 
diagram shows it directly wired in at all times, rather than being 
switched out with a relay.
The think the biggest advantage of the IPS is that it boosts the 
voltage as the battery sags after an alternator failure, which doesn't 
apply to this architecture, but it does supply a boost during starting.

Jeff Page
Dream Aircraft Tundra #10


> Time: 11:48:16 AM PST US
> From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)>
> Subject: New Z-figure
>
>
>>>   The proposed new z-figure will offer all the advantages
>>>   of Z-12 (originally designed for TC aircraft) and
>>>   Z-13 combined.
>>
>> What's the timeframe on this being published?
>>
>> --Rick
>
>
>    I've been stirring that pot for several weeks and
>    I think I'm getting close. Here's revision 3
>    to the drawing . . .
>
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z02P3_Preliminary.pdf
>
>    Critical review most welcome . . .
>
>
>    Bob . . .


===========
-
Electric-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
===========
FORUMS -
eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
===========
WIKI -
errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
===========
b Site -
          -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===========





- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
Back to top
user9253



Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1311
Location: Riley TWP Michigan

PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 7:19 am    Post subject: Re: New Z-figure Reply with quote

Charlie,
I suggest that the bus tie-switch be replaced by a DPDT switch.
Connect the N.C. second half of the switch in series with the start push
button. Doing that will disable the starter if the bus-tie switch is turned on.
The purpose is to prevent starter current from taking a parallel path from
the battery to the engine bus to the main bus to the starter.


- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List

_________________
Joe Gores


Last edited by user9253 on Fri Oct 19, 2018 7:36 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
user9253



Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1311
Location: Riley TWP Michigan

PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 7:35 am    Post subject: Re: New Z-figure Reply with quote

Jeff, the brownout booster (DC-DC converter) is only energized while the relay
is energized (except for milliseconds through diode). The relay is only
energized while the start button is pressed (except for milliseconds dropout delay).


- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List

_________________
Joe Gores
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ceengland7(at)gmail.com
Guest





PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 8:40 am    Post subject: New Z-figure Reply with quote

On 10/19/2018 10:19 AM, user9253 wrote:
Quote:


Charlie,
I suggest that the bus tie-switch be replaced by a DPDT switch. Connect the N.C. second half of the switch in series with the start push button. Doing that will disable the starter if the bus-tie switch is turned on. The purpose is to prevent starter current from taking a parallel path from the battery to the engine bus to the main bus to the starter.

--------
Joe Gores
Hi Joe,


Good idea. I think we may have discussed that issue in the past; I just
haven't revised the rough draft. The -7 project has been stagnant for
several months while I dealt with family illnesses and built a hangar door.

Thanks,

Charlie

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus


- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
Back to top
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> AeroElectric-List All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group