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Ethanol/methanol. Myth or fact

 
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thilo.kind(at)gmx.net
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 1:27 pm    Post subject: Ethanol/methanol. Myth or fact Reply with quote

Hi folks,

the Rotax won't indeed mind a little bit alcohol in the fuel. However,
there are two other issues:
- the fuel system itself, especially seals, pumps, etc.
- fuel with ethanol and / or methanol is much more volatile and thus more
prone to vapor lock.

Regards

Thilo Kind
---


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Roger Lee



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1461
Location: Tucson, Az.

PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 2:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Ethanol/methanol. Myth or fact Reply with quote

Hi Thilo,

Eric Tucker, of Kodiak/Rotax, stated that there is nothing in a Rotax for the alcohol to be an issue. No seals or parts that should get damaged. Other engines yes, but not a Rotax because of the way it is Mfg. It will only cost you some BTU's on the power side. He recommended that we use either a blend of 100LL with 91 oct. or 100LL above 8k' as a precaution to vapor lock.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 12:54 am    Post subject: Ethanol/methanol. Myth or fact Reply with quote

Thanks for passing along the great info, Roger.

Did Eric mention the need to change the oil more frequently
when using 100LL due to lead deposits? Seems like I've
heard that before... but I'm not certain.

While running ethanol through the Rotax might not cause any
trouble, running ethanol through the REST of our fuel system
components might... unless we plan for it.

I have a C150 that is STC'd for MOGAS (O-200) and ethanol
destroyed the rubber o-rings in my fuel tank sump drains.
This occurred over years of use, mind you, but it did
eventually occur.

These days "we" can replace those rubber o-rings with
"ethanol proof" elastomer and not worry any further (as long
as "we" are experimental, of course). My C150 sump drains
were replaced with certified parts... so the clock is
ticking 'til my next pair of replacements are needed.
Arrrgh! Wink

Thanks for the tip about running a Mogas/Avgas blend in the
Rotax 91X series, too. That's recommended on the O-200 by
old C150 drivers to avoid fouling the plugs with pure 100LL.
We currently run 93 octane in our 914 and it purrrrs like
a kitten. We'll have to try the MOGAS/100LL blend once we
start toying with higher altitudes.

Thanks again for sharing!

D


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Thom Riddle



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 4:22 am    Post subject: Ethanol/methanol. Myth or fact Reply with quote

If alcohol is not a problem for Rotax engine fuel systems, why does
Bing sell an optional carb. kit with alcohol tolerant seals and floats
etc for the Bing 64 carburetors?

Thom in Buffalo


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 5:00 am    Post subject: Ethanol/methanol. Myth or fact Reply with quote

For use on vehicles that don't come standard with those parts already fitted. Bing carbs are used on motorcycles too.

A couple airports in southeastern Wisconsin now sell 93 unleaded with the added bonus of no alcohol, but prior to that 95% of the fuel I used was premium pump gas in my 912ULS.

Dave
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Roger Lee



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1461
Location: Tucson, Az.

PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 2:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Ethanol/methanol. Myth or fact Reply with quote

Hi Thom,

I don't know about Bing carbs specifically, but only what Eric Tucker stated.
Bing is used on lots of other applications and maybe they are not set up like the 912's? I used 91 unl with ethanol for 3 years in my Kolb and never noticed any issues.

If you use 100LL more than 30% of the time then you are supposed to cut your oil changes down from 50 hrs. to 25 hrs. If you use 100LL more often or all the time then you have other maintenace issues you need to cover as your engine gets time on it. That's with synthetic oil because it does not suspend the lead like semi-synthetic. Eric did say to use either semi or full synthetic and not use dino oils. I'm sure a number of us use 100LL once in a while and on trips. If I went to 40% 100LL one time I don't think I would panic.

You can go online at Kodiak and download the Line Maint. and the Heavy maint. manuals. I would recommend this to all. You can download the parts manual also, but it is 232 pages of which about 50 are blank for later use. It still has some very useful info in it.
At my home airport I use 91 unl. octane without any ethanol. We have straight 91 unl down the street from the airport.


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Thom Riddle



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
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Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 4:25 am    Post subject: Ethanol/methanol. Myth or fact Reply with quote

Roger,

The maintenance documentation you reference says that when using 100LL
for more than 30% of the time that the oil changes should be increased
in frequency from 100 hours (no lead fuel) to 50 hours. It also states
that mineral oil or semi-synthetic motorcycle oil should be used when
running 100LL. Full synthetic motorcycle oil should be used only with
no lead fuel.

Although it is rare for us to use 100LL in our 912UL we must when we
are flying x-country. We change our oil (Pennzoil Motorcycle
semi-synthetic) and filter (Rotax) every 50 hours because we like to do
a good engine inspection at that frequency anyway.

Thom in Buffalo
FAA Powerplant Mechanic


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NYTerminat(at)aol.com
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 6:55 am    Post subject: Ethanol/methanol. Myth or fact Reply with quote

Thom,

I have a 912uls and I am supposed to use premium unleaded, I was wondering on a cross country flight with an airport that has 100LL and 87 MoGas would it be alright to mix the two together and have enough octane but reduce the lead level? There seems to be few airports that have 91MoGas.

Bob Spudis
N701ZX/ CH-701/ 912S



In a message dated 2/21/2007 7:26:28 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, jtriddle(at)adelphia.net writes:
Quote:
--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: Thom Riddle <jtriddle(at)adelphia.net>

Roger,

The maintenance documentation you reference says that when using 100LL
for more than 30% of the time that the oil changes should be increased
in frequency from 100 hours (no lead fuel) to 50 hours. It also states
that mineral oil or semi-synthetic motorcycle oil should be used when
running 100LL. Full synthetic motorcycle oil should be used only with
no lead fuel.

Although it is rare for us to use 100LL in our 912UL we must when we
are flying x-country. We change our oil (Pennzoil Motorcycle
semi-synthetic) and filter (Rotax) every 50 hours because we like to do
a good engine inspection at that frequency anyway.

Thom in Buffalo
FAA Powerplant = Use lities Day --> - NEW MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
bsp; --> ======================





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jkuehn(at)mountaintime.my
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 8:04 am    Post subject: Ethanol/methanol. Myth or fact Reply with quote

The problem I ran into on a cross country from Western Montana to
Minnesota was that even if an airport had mogas, they are not allowed to
pump it into an airplane, regardless of what the engine requirements
are, because of insurance company rules. If you carry a gas can, you
can buy the gas and pour it yourself, but this is not so simple when
your plane is already full of stuff. I mixed auto gas and 100LL with no
problem, and I use synthetic fuel, but I changed the plugs and the oil
when I returned, which happened to be the time to change oil anyway.
The plugs showed plenty of lead on them, so there may be issues with
this over hundreds of hours of use. I also used the non-toxic lead
scavenger additive (forgot the name!). Just as an aside note, I use a
1/2 dose of Sta-bil in the auto gas in the winter when I fly less. This
makes for much quicker and smoother starting in cold weather, though I
keep the plane in a heated hangar.

Jack

NYTerminat(at)aol.com wrote:

Quote:
Thom,

I have a 912uls and I am supposed to use premium unleaded, I was
wondering on a cross country flight with an airport that has 100LL and
87 MoGas would it be alright to mix the two together and have enough
octane but reduce the lead level? There seems to be few airports that
have 91MoGas.

Bob Spudis
N701ZX/ CH-701/ 912S



In a message dated 2/21/2007 7:26:28 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
jtriddle(at)adelphia.net writes:


<jtriddle(at)adelphia.net>

Roger,

The maintenance documentation you reference says that when using
100LL
for more than 30% of the time that the oil changes should be
increased
in frequency from 100 hours (no lead fuel) to 50 hours. It also
states
that mineral oil or semi-synthetic motorcycle oil should be used when
running 100LL. Full synthetic motorcycle oil should be used only with
no lead fuel.

Although it is rare for us to use 100LL in our 912UL we must when we
are flying x-country. We change our oil (Pennzoil Motorcycle
semi-synthetic) and filter (Rotax) every 50 hours because we like
to do
a good engine inspection at that frequency anyway.

Thom in Buffalo
FAA Powerplant = Use lities Day --> - NEW MATRONICS
WEB FORUMS -
bsp; --> ======================



------------------------------------------------------------------------
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web, free AOL Mail and much more.

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Jack Kuehn
5565 Brady Lane
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(406) 273-6801
(406) 546-1086 (cell)
(406) 273-2563 (fax)


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lostpilot28



Joined: 26 Jul 2006
Posts: 7
Location: Southern California

PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 8:44 am    Post subject: Ethanol/methanol. Myth or fact Reply with quote

If I run my 912UL with 100LL, which is rare, I add Decalin. It's available from Aircraft Spruce for $20. It's safe to carry in the cockpit, too.

Regards,
Sonny W.
---


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oneniner



Joined: 08 Feb 2007
Posts: 4
Location: Montana

PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 9:00 am    Post subject: Ethanol/methanol. Myth or fact Reply with quote

Never heard of that one. I fly in Montana, Washington, Idaho, Wyoming, Dakotas, etc. There are several airports that have Mogas, and you pump it into your airplane. Arlington Washington has a nice credit card pump with mogas that gets a lot of use during the EAA fly in and year round.

Gary

Jack Kuehn wrote: [quote]--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: Jack Kuehn <jkuehn(at)mountaintime.myrf.net> (jkuehn(at)mountaintime.myrf.net)

The problem I ran into on a cross country from Western Montana to Minnesota was that even if an airport had mogas, they are not allowed to pump it into an airplane, regardless of what the engine requirements are, because of insurance company rules. If you carry a gas can, you can buy the gas and pour it yourself, but this is not so simple when your plane is already full of stuff. I mixed auto gas and 100LL with no problem, and I use synthetic fuel, but I changed the plugs and the oil when I returned, which happened to be the time to change oil anyway. The plugs showed plenty of lead on them, so there may be issues with this over hundreds of hours of use. I also used the non-toxic lead scavenger additive (forgot the name!). Just as an aside note, I use a 1/2 dose of Sta-bil in the auto gas in the winter when I fly less. This makes for much quicker and smoother starting in cold weather, though I keep the plane in a heated hangar.
Jack

NYTerminat(at)aol.com (NYTerminat(at)aol.com) wrote:

Quote:
Thom,

I have a 912uls and I am supposed to use premium unleaded, I was wondering on a cross country flight with an airport that has 100LL and 87 MoGas would it be alright to mix the two together and have enough octane but reduce the lead level? There seems to be few airports that have 91MoGas.

Bob Spudis
N701ZX/ CH-701/ 912S


[b]


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thilo.kind(at)gmx.net
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 1:34 pm    Post subject: Ethanol/methanol. Myth or fact Reply with quote

Hi Roger,

I meant the seals, hoses, etc. of the fuel system from the tanks to the
engine. I agree, that the engine itself should not have any trouble.

Did Kodiak say anything about the ratio of the blend with 100 LL?

Regards

Thilo Kind

Regarding
---


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 2:36 pm    Post subject: Ethanol/methanol. Myth or fact Reply with quote

MSDS for Decalin...I would not carry in my cockpit area the baggage lockers
will work though.
http://www.sciencestuff.com/msds/C1662.html

--


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Roger Lee



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1461
Location: Tucson, Az.

PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 4:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Ethanol/methanol. Myth or fact Reply with quote

Hi Guys,

Decalin is a safer, less corrosive and less volitile product to use over TCP.
As far as ethanol on hoses and the such. Most of us around the country drive cars, motorcycles, ATV's, snowmobiles ect.. with ethanol/metanol and have no ill effects on hoses and seals. Nothing special about our hoses in the Rotax or our cars/motorcycles. When was the last time any of us had to overhaul our hoses and seals in our vehicles.

Eric Tucker stated that they want oil changed every 50 hrs. with 91 Oct. and 25 hrs with 100LL. He also stated that they want plugs changed every 100 hrs and not at the 200 hr mark with 91 oct. and even less time with 100LL. Don't go by the book on these two items. I think there is a bulletin out on this, but I may be wrong here. I will research it and get back to you.These are the blood and heart of your engine why take a chance of long term issues or and type of an engine issue for the sake of $20-$30 every few months. Just the fact they we are on this forum asking questions means we care about our engines and our hides.

You can use synthetic oil up to that 30%, but should be semi-synthetic if any more than that. If you know you have cross country's coming up then use semi-synthetic at the oil change. You can mix 100LL with 91 Oct. without any issues.
I believe Eric said that he would like a 50/50 blend above 8k'.

I am sure you could blend 87 with 100LL, but you would have no way of knowing what the out come octane would be. I would shy away from this blend not being able to really know. Then when you add fuel again it would change the octane. Better to stick with 91 and/or 100LL.


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Light Sport Repairman
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 7:45 am    Post subject: Ethanol/methanol. Myth or fact Reply with quote

I flew into Billings MT after calling the FBO there to confirm they had
mogas. WHen I got there they gave me the story about liability...they
had mogas but could not even pump it into my can. All the small
airports across Montana, Soutn Dakota and Minnesota with self serve have
only 100LL except Mobridge on the Missouri River in South Dakota.
Friendly little FBO there has a pump you can taxi up to, and the owner
told me his insurance company told him not to pump auto gas into
airplanes, but he does it anyway! At Missoula Montana near where I live
they will fill your can but not your plane. Silly and very
inconvenient. I'm glad that west of here the story is better. WHen will
the insurance companies get real?

Gary wrote:

Quote:
Never heard of that one. I fly in Montana, Washington, Idaho,
Wyoming, Dakotas, etc. There are several airports that have Mogas,
and you pump it into your airplane. Arlington Washington has a nice
credit card pump with mogas that gets a lot of use during the EAA fly
in and year round.

Gary

Jack Kuehn wrote:

>
> <jkuehn(at)mountaintime.myrf.net>
>
> The problem I ran into on a cross country from Western Montana to
> Minnesota was that even if an airport had mogas, they are not allowed
> to pump it into an airplane, regardless of what the engine
> requirements are, because of insurance company rules. If you carry a
> gas can, you can buy the gas and pour it yourself, but this is not so
> simple when your plane is already full of stuff. I mixed auto gas
> and 100LL with no problem, and I use synthetic fuel, but I changed
> the plugs and the oil when I returned, which happened to be the time
> to change oil anyway. The plugs showed plenty of lead on them, so
> there may be issues with this over hundreds of hours of use. I also
> used the non-toxic lead scavenger additive (forgot the name!). Just
> as an aside note, I use a 1/2 dose of Sta-bil in the auto gas in the
> winter when I fly less. This makes for much quicker and smoother
> starting in cold weather, though I keep the plane in a heated hangar.
> Jack
>
> NYTerminat(at)aol.com wrote:
>
>> Thom,
>>
>> I have a 912uls and I am supposed to use premium unleaded, I was
>> wondering on a cross country flight with an airport that has 100LL
>> and 87 MoGas would it be alright to mix the two together and have
>> enough octane but reduce the lead level? There seems to be few
>> airports that have 91MoGas.
>>
>> Bob Spudis
>> N701ZX/ CH-701/ 912S
>>
*
*


--
Jack Kuehn
5565 Brady Lane
Lolo, MT 59847

(406) 273-6801
(406) 546-1086 (cell)
(406) 273-2563 (fax)


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oneniner



Joined: 08 Feb 2007
Posts: 4
Location: Montana

PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 8:02 am    Post subject: Ethanol/methanol. Myth or fact Reply with quote

Hi, Jack. Yes, pretty ridiculous. The main problem I've had is finding Mogas at airports.

You are located in Missoula? I am near Great Falls. What kind of plane are you flying? Maybe I can contact you off list.

Gary

Jack Kuehn wrote: [quote]--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: Jack Kuehn <jkuehn(at)mountaintime.myrf.net> (jkuehn(at)mountaintime.myrf.net)

I flew into Billings MT after calling the FBO there to confirm they had mogas. WHen I got there they gave me the story about liability...they had mogas but could not even pump it into my can. All the small airports across Montana, Soutn Dakota and Minnesota with self serve have only 100LL except Mobridge on the Missouri River in South Dakota. Friendly little FBO there has a pump you can taxi up to, and the owner told me his insurance company told him not to pump auto gas into airplanes, but he does it anyway! At Missoula Montana near where I live they will fill your can but not your plane. Silly and very inconvenient. I'm glad that west of here the story is better. WHen will the insurance companies get real?

Gary wrote:

Quote:
Never heard of that one. I fly in Montana, Washington, Idaho, Wyoming, Dakotas, etc. There are several airports that have Mogas, and you pump it into your airplane. Arlington Washington has a nice credit card pump with mogas that gets a lot of use during the EAA fly in and year round.

Gary

Jack Kuehn wrote:

Quote:
--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: Jack Kuehn <jkuehn(at)mountaintime.myrf.net> (jkuehn(at)mountaintime.myrf.net)

The problem I ran into on a cross country from Western Montana to Minnesota was that even if an airport had mogas, they are not allowed to pump it into an airplane, regardless of what the engine requirements are, because of insurance company rules. If you carry a gas can, you can buy the gas and pour it yourself, but this is not so simple when your plane is already full of stuff. I mixed auto gas and 100LL with no problem, and I use synthetic fuel, but I changed the plugs and the oil when I returned, which happened to be the time to change oil anyway. The plugs showed plenty of lead on them, so there may be issues with this over hundreds of hours of use. I also used the non-toxic lead scavenger additive (forgot the name!). Just as an aside note, I use a 1/2 dose of Sta-bil in the auto gas in the winter when I fly less. This makes for much quicker and smoother starting in cold weather, though I keep the plane in a heated hangar.
Jack

NYTerminat(at)aol.com (NYTerminat(at)aol.com) wrote:

Quote:
Thom,

I have a 912uls and I am supposed to use premium unleaded, I was wondering on a cross country flight with an airport that has 100LL and 87 MoGas would it be alright to mix the two together and have enough octane but reduce the lead level? There seems to be few airports that have 91MoGas.

Bob Spudis
N701ZX/ CH-701/ 912S



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