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wayne.e(at)grandecom.net
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 Posted: Sun Aug 27, 2006 6:34 pm Post subject: Access to tries for air |
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There has been discussions about our ability to pump air into the tires without removing the wheel fairings. I am researching the possibilty of getting access doors the same as some production planes have that allows you to open a small door to service the tire. If I have any luck I will pass it along. But someone gave me a suggestion that might eliminate the need for this. He said to fill the tires with nitrogen and the tires wont go down hardly ever. I think I'll probably give that a try also. Apparently this is done often. I'd never heard of it before.
Wayne Edgerton # 40336
[quote][b]
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k5wiv(at)amsat.org
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| Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 2:11 am Post subject: Access to tries for air |
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The main advantage to filling tires (and other things such as air/oil shocks, etc.) dry nitrogen rather than air is a much lower thermal expansion ratio so that pressure remains more constant with temperature changes. I suppose that being clean, dry and oxygen free it would result in less deterioration of the inner tube but most tires and tubes will be replaced before that becomes significant.
Jack & Cecilia Sargeant
1127 Patricia St.
Wichita, KS 67208-2642
316/683-5268 [quote] --
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coop85(at)bellsouth.net
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| Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 5:13 am Post subject: Access to tries for air |
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I know the high pressure tires use nitrogen from an explosive resistance standpoint as well (If I remember right it was well over 300 psi in the Hornet when ready for carrier landings), but I have 2 questions for practicality for GA airplanes. What is the availability of nitrogen at the standard airport? Also, is there any danger in mixing Nitrogen and regular compressed air if you do need to top it off a little and there’s no Nitrogen around?
Marcus
Do not archive
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jack Sargeant
Sent: Monday, August 28, 2006 6:10 AM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Access to tries for air
The main advantage to filling tires (and other things such as air/oil shocks, etc.) dry nitrogen rather than air is a much lower thermal expansion ratio so that pressure remains more constant with temperature changes. I suppose that being clean, dry and oxygen free it would result in less deterioration of the inner tube but most tires and tubes will be replaced before that becomes significant.
Jack & Cecilia Sargeant
1127 Patricia St.
Wichita, KS 67208-2642
316/683-5268 [quote]
--
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rvbuilder(at)sausen.net
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| Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 5:51 am Post subject: Access to tries for air |
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Considering regular air is already 78% nitrogen, I doubt there would be any problem adding compressed air to a nitrogen filled tire.
Michael Sausen
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Marcus Cooper
Sent: Monday, August 28, 2006 8:13 AM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Access to tries for air
I know the high pressure tires use nitrogen from an explosive resistance standpoint as well (If I remember right it was well over 300 psi in the Hornet when ready for carrier landings), but I have 2 questions for practicality for GA airplanes. What is the availability of nitrogen at the standard airport? Also, is there any danger in mixing Nitrogen and regular compressed air if you do need to top it off a little and there’s no Nitrogen around?
Marcus
Do not archive
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jack Sargeant
Sent: Monday, August 28, 2006 6:10 AM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Access to tries for air
The main advantage to filling tires (and other things such as air/oil shocks, etc.) dry nitrogen rather than air is a much lower thermal expansion ratio so that pressure remains more constant with temperature changes. I suppose that being clean, dry and oxygen free it would result in less deterioration of the inner tube but most tires and tubes will be replaced before that becomes significant.
Jack & Cecilia Sargeant
1127 Patricia St.
Wichita, KS 67208-2642
316/683-5268 | Quote: |
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Wayne Edgerton
Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2006 9:34 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Access to tries for air
There has been discussions about our ability to pump air into the tires without removing the wheel fairings. I am researching the possibilty of getting access doors the same as some production planes have that allows you to open a small door to service the tire. If I have any luck I will pass it along. But someone gave me a suggestion that might eliminate the need for this. He said to fill the tires with nitrogen and the tires wont go down hardly ever. I think I'll probably give that a try also. Apparently this is done often. I'd never heard of it before.
Wayne Edgerton # 40336
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rvmail(at)thelefflers.com
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| Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 6:33 am Post subject: Access to tries for air |
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Nitrogen should be available at most FBOs. Pipers use nitrogen to inflate the struts. I've not encountered a problem getting nitrogen for my Cherokee 180. Although, I admit my sampling is small.
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From: "Marcus Cooper" <coop85(at)bellsouth.net>
Date: 2006/08/28 Mon AM 09:13:01 EDT
To: <rv10-list(at)matronics.com>
Subject: RE: Access to tries for air
practicality for GA airplanes. What is the availability of nitrogen at the
standard airport? Also, is there any danger in mixing Nitrogen and regular
compressed air if you do need to top it off a little and there's no Nitrogen
around?
|
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Tim(at)MyRV10.com
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| Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 8:39 am Post subject: Access to tries for air |
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Marcus, Air is 80% (roughly) Nitrogen to begin with. No, if you
have Nitrogen, that would be perfect, but if you add air to
it, there is just plain nothing that makes that bad. Now if
you were to say you wanted to add Oxygen, we'd be talking a
different story.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
Marcus Cooper wrote:
[quote] I know the high pressure tires use nitrogen from an explosive resistance
standpoint as well (If I remember right it was well over 300 psi in the
Hornet when ready for carrier landings), but I have 2 questions for
practicality for GA airplanes. What is the availability of nitrogen at
the standard airport? Also, is there any danger in mixing Nitrogen and
regular compressed air if you do need to top it off a little and there’s
no Nitrogen around?
Marcus
Do not archive
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:* owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Jack Sargeant
*Sent:* Monday, August 28, 2006 6:10 AM
*To:* rv10-list(at)matronics.com
*Subject:* RE: Access to tries for air
The main advantage to filling tires (and other things such as air/oil
shocks, etc.) dry nitrogen rather than air is a much lower thermal
expansion ratio so that pressure remains more constant with temperature
changes. I suppose that being clean, dry and oxygen free it
would result in less deterioration of the inner tube but most tires and
tubes will be replaced before that becomes significant.
Jack & Cecilia Sargeant
1127 Patricia St.
Wichita, KS 67208-2642
316/683-5268
--
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John Ackerman
Joined: 19 Jun 2006
Posts: 130
Location: Prescott, AZ
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| Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 9:02 am Post subject: Access to tries for air |
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| Quote: | The main advantage to filling tires... (with) dry nitrogen... is a
much lower thermal expansion ratio...
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_Gaseous_ air and nitrogen have very nearly identical thermal expansion
ratios. The physical description of this follows from the gas laws, so
that P1/P2 = T1/T2 where P is pressure and T is temperature on an
absolute scale like Kelvin or Rankine is a very good aproximation.
Worst case: If the "air" contains a mist of water droplets, this liquid
water might keep on collecting inside the tire/tube with repeated
fillings. If the the tire contains a heckuva lot of liquid water, and
if it were to heat up under hard braking to, say, 250 °F, the pressure
increase due to evaporation of that water would be an additional 30 psi
over that of a tire filled with "dry" (no liquid water) nitrogen or
air. The dry-gas filled tire in this case would have about an 80%
increase in pressure, assuming it were filled at 50 °F. If it "only"
heats to 180 °F, the pressure increase due to evaporation would be
about 8 psi. See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vapor_pressure#Water_vapor_pressure
or any chemical handbook, among many other sources.
The "dry" part could conceivably be some advantage in mitigating
corrosion of the wheels _internal_ to the tires, if the compressed air
source were saturated with water, as many are. Thing is, most 10s will
be using inner tubes, so the water may never see the metal parts
(except the valve stem). In the heavy airplane case, it's another story
entirely - higher temps would make all the difference, I think. Might
they also be tubeless?
No harm in using dry nitrogen, especially if the air you would
otherwise be using is of particularly poor quality - like from a
compressor that doesn't get drained periodically.
| Quote: | I suppose that being clean, dry and oxygen free it would result
in less deterioration of the inner tube but most tires and tubes will
be replaced before that becomes significant.
I agree. The thing is sitting in an air environment, after all.
|
John Ackerman 40458
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Kellym
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1706
Location: Sun Lakes AZ
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| Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 11:02 am Post subject: Access to tries for air |
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Also rather doubtful that it makes much difference in the thermal
expansion or leak rate of tires with normal 30-50psi inflation.
Probably the biggest advantage of compressed nitrogen is that it is
moisture free, which a lot of compressed air is not.
Quoting "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" <rvbuilder(at)sausen.net>:
| Quote: | Considering regular air is already 78% nitrogen, I doubt there would be
any problem adding compressed air to a nitrogen filled tire.
Michael Sausen
________________________________
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Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
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