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OT: IFR Training With Six-Pack or G1000?

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sean(at)stephensville.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 1:25 pm Post subject: OT: IFR Training With Six-Pack or G1000?

Soliciting a few opinions from list members...



I recently completed my BFR after a long time off flying.  I had the 

fortunate opportunity to get a G1000 signoff (school requires 3 hours 

training to rent a G1000 equipped plane) at the same time.  I really 

enjoyed flying behind the G1000 in a 2006 air conditioned 172SP.   It 

was my first EFIS experience.



While I am in buildus interuptus mode I am planning on getting my IFR 

ticket.  My question to the list is should I go through this with the 

G1000 or the standard six-pack?  The flight sim which the school uses 

has the standard six-pack.  And the King DVDs are geared around that 

also.  But, I can also get the King G1000 DVDs to fill in the gaps.



Has anyone on the list gone through their IFR training with a G1000 that 

can offer up advice?  How does the checkride differ as far as the 

Examiner is concerned?  Is it easier to just complete the IFR training 

with the six-pack, and then go through the procedures afterward with the 

G1000?



One of the reasons I'd like to do it via the G1000 is because the G1000 

planes available for rental have air conditioning also, which is a nice 

feature here in Phoenix, AZ. 



One thing that I realize is that I'm fortunate to have a G1000 plane 

available as I'm planning on having a glass panel in my -10.  I imagine 

that time behind a G1000 will help me either way if I go with a Chelton 

for example.



Thanks,



-Sean #40303 (plane in IL, me in AZ)

LloydDR(at)wernerco.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 5:13 pm Post subject: OT: IFR Training With Six-Pack or G1000?

Sean

I had the same questions when I started to get my IFR cert. I talked

long and hard with several instructors, and while they all told me the

same thing, the glass panel, GPS moving map, EFIS, and HITS that I will

have in the RV10 will make it as easy as possible to fly IFR, but I

still need to be able to fly the needles, in case I am in someone else's

plane, or I chose to sell the 10 and do something else. They told me it

is very easy to transition from standard gauges to glass, but very

difficult to transition from glass back to standard, if you never

learned it that way.

So long story short, I do not think glass or GPS is going away, I made

the decision to learn the harder way and transition to glass when the 10

was done. Besides, I bought a cheap Cherokee 140 to get my ticket in and

will sell it to get my engine when I am done. Rather than renting a high

end plane, buy a cheap, traditional IFR trainer, get your ticket, sell

it, and with the money you save you can put air in the 10.

Just my .02

Dan

RV10E (N289DT)



--

Tdawson(at)avidyne.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 5:31 pm Post subject: OT: IFR Training With Six-Pack or G1000?

Ditch the six-pack.  Go glass.

 

When I learned to drive, I did it in a car - I didn't bother to learn on a horse . . .

 

TDT

40025

do not archive

 



________________________________



From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of Sean Stephens

Sent: Wed 8/23/2006 5:24 PM

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: OT: IFR Training With Six-Pack or G1000?






Soliciting a few opinions from list members...



I recently completed my BFR after a long time off flying.  I had the

fortunate opportunity to get a G1000 signoff (school requires 3 hours

training to rent a G1000 equipped plane) at the same time.  I really

enjoyed flying behind the G1000 in a 2006 air conditioned 172SP.   It

was my first EFIS experience.



While I am in buildus interuptus mode I am planning on getting my IFR

ticket.  My question to the list is should I go through this with the

G1000 or the standard six-pack?  The flight sim which the school uses

has the standard six-pack.  And the King DVDs are geared around that

also.  But, I can also get the King G1000 DVDs to fill in the gaps.



Has anyone on the list gone through their IFR training with a G1000 that

can offer up advice?  How does the checkride differ as far as the

Examiner is concerned?  Is it easier to just complete the IFR training

with the six-pack, and then go through the procedures afterward with the

G1000?



One of the reasons I'd like to do it via the G1000 is because the G1000

planes available for rental have air conditioning also, which is a nice

feature here in Phoenix, AZ. 



One thing that I realize is that I'm fortunate to have a G1000 plane

available as I'm planning on having a glass panel in my -10.  I imagine

that time behind a G1000 will help me either way if I go with a Chelton

for example.



Thanks,



-Sean #40303 (plane in IL, me in AZ)

Tim(at)MyRV10.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 6:34 pm Post subject: OT: IFR Training With Six-Pack or G1000?

Tough question.  I'd personally train in the six-pack and save

the cash. You're going to have to re-learn your own panel

anyway, so what will be valuable is to save some cash and

after you're done with your flyoff, hire a CFII for 5 or 10

hours to fly with you and shoot approaches using your own

gear.   But, I think you'd have more FUN flying the glass.

For what it's worth, the skills you learn using the old

stuff can give you some very useful background and may help

you to truly *understand* Instrument flying a bit better at

a core level...which will make flying glass just plain easy

later.



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

do not archive

Sean Stephens wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Soliciting a few opinions from list members...

 

 I recently completed my BFR after a long time off flying.  I had the 

 fortunate opportunity to get a G1000 signoff (school requires 3 hours 

 training to rent a G1000 equipped plane) at the same time.  I really 

 enjoyed flying behind the G1000 in a 2006 air conditioned 172SP.   It 

 was my first EFIS experience.

 

 While I am in buildus interuptus mode I am planning on getting my IFR 

 ticket.  My question to the list is should I go through this with the 

 G1000 or the standard six-pack?  The flight sim which the school uses 

 has the standard six-pack.  And the King DVDs are geared around that 

 also.  But, I can also get the King G1000 DVDs to fill in the gaps.

 

 Has anyone on the list gone through their IFR training with a G1000 that 

 can offer up advice?  How does the checkride differ as far as the 

 Examiner is concerned?  Is it easier to just complete the IFR training 

 with the six-pack, and then go through the procedures afterward with the 

 G1000?

 

 One of the reasons I'd like to do it via the G1000 is because the G1000 

 planes available for rental have air conditioning also, which is a nice 

 feature here in Phoenix, AZ. 

 

 One thing that I realize is that I'm fortunate to have a G1000 plane 

 available as I'm planning on having a glass panel in my -10.  I imagine 

 that time behind a G1000 will help me either way if I go with a Chelton 

 for example.

 

 Thanks,

 

 -Sean #40303 (plane in IL, me in AZ)

sean(at)stephensville.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 7:06 pm Post subject: OT: IFR Training With Six-Pack or G1000?

I thought about the price difference, but the difference between renting 

a good ole 172S six-pack and a 2006 172SP G1000 w/ac is $19/hour.   

So, price does not come into play for me all that much.



-Sean



Tim Olson wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Tough question.  I'd personally train in the six-pack and save

 the cash. You're going to have to re-learn your own panel

 anyway, so what will be valuable is to save some cash and

 after you're done with your flyoff, hire a CFII for 5 or 10

 hours to fly with you and shoot approaches using your own

 gear.   But, I think you'd have more FUN flying the glass.

 For what it's worth, the skills you learn using the old

 stuff can give you some very useful background and may help

 you to truly *understand* Instrument flying a bit better at

 a core level...which will make flying glass just plain easy

 later.



 Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

 do not archive

 Sean Stephens wrote:

> 

>

> Soliciting a few opinions from list members...

>

> I recently completed my BFR after a long time off flying.  I had the 

> fortunate opportunity to get a G1000 signoff (school requires 3 hours 

> training to rent a G1000 equipped plane) at the same time.  I really 

> enjoyed flying behind the G1000 in a 2006 air conditioned 172SP.   

> It was my first EFIS experience.

>

> While I am in buildus interuptus mode I am planning on getting my IFR 

> ticket.  My question to the list is should I go through this with the 

> G1000 or the standard six-pack?  The flight sim which the school uses 

> has the standard six-pack.  And the King DVDs are geared around that 

> also.  But, I can also get the King G1000 DVDs to fill in the gaps.

>

> Has anyone on the list gone through their IFR training with a G1000 

> that can offer up advice?  How does the checkride differ as far as 

> the Examiner is concerned?  Is it easier to just complete the IFR 

> training with the six-pack, and then go through the procedures 

> afterward with the G1000?

>

> One of the reasons I'd like to do it via the G1000 is because the 

> G1000 planes available for rental have air conditioning also, which 

> is a nice feature here in Phoenix, AZ. 

>

> One thing that I realize is that I'm fortunate to have a G1000 plane 

> available as I'm planning on having a glass panel in my -10.  I 

> imagine that time behind a G1000 will help me either way if I go with 

> a Chelton for example.

>

> Thanks,

>

> -Sean #40303 (plane in IL, me in AZ)

>

Kellym

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1706
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 7:33 pm Post subject: OT: IFR Training With Six-Pack or G1000?

Sure, if you want to be incompetent at the partial panel when the glass 

panel goes black, which is 99.94% guaranteed to happen on a BFR, IPC, if 

not in real life. Learn with the traditional instruments, it gives you a 

far more thorough background. Besides, ATC isn't going to let you fly 

anything but airways as soon as you get east of the Miss. or west of the 

Sierras. GPS will be a very slow transition, given that the Garmin GPS 

100 came on the market 15 years ago, and there are still less than 5 

GPSs on the market that you can legally fly without traditional nav 

backup in the plane. How are you going to understand overlay approaches 

if you don't know how to fly the underlying approach?

Tim Dawson-Townsend wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Ditch the six-pack.  Go glass.

  

 When I learned to drive, I did it in a car - I didn't bother to learn on a horse . . .

  

 TDT

 40025

 do not archive

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD

Tdawson(at)avidyne.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 8:14 pm Post subject: OT: IFR Training With Six-Pack or G1000?

a.) Training on a G1000 or Avidyne Entegra would include "partial panel" work using the conventional "steam gauge" backup instruments.

b.) Using a G1000 or Avidyne Entegra, etc, does not mean radio navigation is abandoned for GPS.  Both systems feature VOR, LOC, and ILS capability, in addition to RNAV (GPS).

c.) In a parallel vein, training or lots of practice in effectively using your autopilot of choice in conjunction with whatever system of six-pack/EFIS/GPS/Nav you have is also important . . .

d). Like it or not, there are folks entering the training stream that are never going to fly without glass (except maybe VFR).

 

TDT

40025

 



________________________________



From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of Kelly McMullen

Sent: Wed 8/23/2006 11:32 PM

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: OT: IFR Training With Six-Pack or G1000?






Sure, if you want to be incompetent at the partial panel when the glass

panel goes black, which is 99.94% guaranteed to happen on a BFR, IPC, if

not in real life. Learn with the traditional instruments, it gives you a

far more thorough background. Besides, ATC isn't going to let you fly

anything but airways as soon as you get east of the Miss. or west of the

Sierras. GPS will be a very slow transition, given that the Garmin GPS

100 came on the market 15 years ago, and there are still less than 5

GPSs on the market that you can legally fly without traditional nav

backup in the plane. How are you going to understand overlay approaches

if you don't know how to fly the underlying approach?

Tim Dawson-Townsend wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Ditch the six-pack.  Go glass.

 

 When I learned to drive, I did it in a car - I didn't bother to learn on a horse . . .

 

 TDT

 40025

 do not archive

Tdawson(at)avidyne.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 8:16 pm Post subject: OT: IFR Training With Six-Pack or G1000?

The a/c might be worth that difference alone, in Arizona!

 

TDT

do not archive

 



________________________________



From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of Sean Stephens

Sent: Wed 8/23/2006 11:05 PM

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: OT: IFR Training With Six-Pack or G1000?






I thought about the price difference, but the difference between renting

a good ole 172S six-pack and a 2006 172SP G1000 w/ac is $19/hour.  

So, price does not come into play for me all that much.



-Sean



Tim Olson wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Tough question.  I'd personally train in the six-pack and save

 the cash. You're going to have to re-learn your own panel

 anyway, so what will be valuable is to save some cash and

 after you're done with your flyoff, hire a CFII for 5 or 10

 hours to fly with you and shoot approaches using your own

 gear.   But, I think you'd have more FUN flying the glass.

 For what it's worth, the skills you learn using the old

 stuff can give you some very useful background and may help

 you to truly *understand* Instrument flying a bit better at

 a core level...which will make flying glass just plain easy

 later.



 Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

 do not archive

 Sean Stephens wrote:

> 

>

> Soliciting a few opinions from list members...

>

> I recently completed my BFR after a long time off flying.  I had the

> fortunate opportunity to get a G1000 signoff (school requires 3 hours

> training to rent a G1000 equipped plane) at the same time.  I really

> enjoyed flying behind the G1000 in a 2006 air conditioned 172SP.  

> It was my first EFIS experience.

>

> While I am in buildus interuptus mode I am planning on getting my IFR

> ticket.  My question to the list is should I go through this with the

> G1000 or the standard six-pack?  The flight sim which the school uses

> has the standard six-pack.  And the King DVDs are geared around that

> also.  But, I can also get the King G1000 DVDs to fill in the gaps.

>

> Has anyone on the list gone through their IFR training with a G1000

> that can offer up advice?  How does the checkride differ as far as

> the Examiner is concerned?  Is it easier to just complete the IFR

> training with the six-pack, and then go through the procedures

> afterward with the G1000?

>

> One of the reasons I'd like to do it via the G1000 is because the

> G1000 planes available for rental have air conditioning also, which

> is a nice feature here in Phoenix, AZ. 

>

> One thing that I realize is that I'm fortunate to have a G1000 plane

> available as I'm planning on having a glass panel in my -10.  I

> imagine that time behind a G1000 will help me either way if I go with

> a Chelton for example.

>

> Thanks,

>

> -Sean #40303 (plane in IL, me in AZ)

>

sean(at)stephensville.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 8:33 pm Post subject: OT: IFR Training With Six-Pack or G1000?

It's not just about GPS and GPS approaches.  That was the least of my 

worries.  You still fly all the normal approaches the same way with an 

EFIS like the G1000 that you do with a six-pack.  You're just using 

different "tools" to accomplish the same flightpath.  You still have to 

know how to tune the OBS and fly the course for example.  If it's on the 

G1000 or via the NAV and indicator, that's just a matter of knowing the 

"tool" to get the job done.

And that is the jist of my question.  You still have to learn all the 

procedures regardless of the tool.  If COST was not a factor (and it's a 

very small factor for me), which "tool" would you rather train on?

-Sean

Kelly McMullen wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 Sure, if you want to be incompetent at the partial panel when the 

 glass panel goes black, which is 99.94% guaranteed to happen on a BFR, 

 IPC, if not in real life. Learn with the traditional instruments, it 

 gives you a far more thorough background. Besides, ATC isn't going to 

 let you fly anything but airways as soon as you get east of the Miss. 

 or west of the Sierras. GPS will be a very slow transition, given that 

 the Garmin GPS 100 came on the market 15 years ago, and there are 

 still less than 5 GPSs on the market that you can legally fly without 

 traditional nav backup in the plane. How are you going to understand 

 overlay approaches if you don't know how to fly the underlying approach?

 Tim Dawson-Townsend wrote:

> Ditch the six-pack.  Go glass.

>  

> When I learned to drive, I did it in a car - I didn't bother to learn 

> on a horse . . .

>  

> TDT

> 40025

> do not archive

>  

>

Kellym

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1706
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 8:52 pm Post subject: OT: IFR Training With Six-Pack or G1000?

Tim Dawson-Townsend wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   a.) Training on a G1000 or Avidyne Entegra would include "partial panel" work using the conventional "steam gauge" backup instruments.

Yep, but not likely to the same level of competence, because it will be 
	


using a totally different set of instruments than what they fly every 

day, requiring much bigger adjustment.

 	  Quote: 	
		   b.) Using a G1000 or Avidyne Entegra, etc, does not mean radio navigation is abandoned for GPS.  Both systems feature VOR, LOC, and ILS capability, in addition to RNAV (GPS).

Yes, but no NDB.  Also, minimal use of unaided radio navigation...how 
	


well do they track without a moving map?

 	  Quote: 	
		   c.) In a parallel vein, training or lots of practice in effectively using your autopilot of choice in conjunction with whatever system of six-pack/EFIS/GPS/Nav you have is also important . . .

Traditional training planes are not too likely to have working 
	


autopilots, especially the Cessnas of the late '70s. Better to learn to 

handle it all hand flying before you let Otto do it all.

 	  Quote: 	
		   d). Like it or not, there are folks entering the training stream that are never going to fly without glass (except maybe VFR).

Also true, and they will have some hard lessons before the kinks are 
	


ironed out. Has happened with every advance in technology.

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD

Kellym

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1706
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 8:59 pm Post subject: OT: IFR Training With Six-Pack or G1000?

I'd still train with the traditional setup. It actually is much easier 

to fly, knobs and settings are far easier, but you have to learn to 

mentally picture where you are, instead of seeing it on a moving map. A 

very valuable skill. When you don't have the EFIS, do you still have an 

OBS and a VOR/ILS you can tune, when the circuit breaker for that EFIS 

breaks? Can you fly it and the backup steam gauges effectively, when 75% 

of your training is with the EFIS. IMHO, you would be far better off 

saving the 8 grand, learning the traditional stuff, then, as Tim 

suggested, getting some dual in your RV10 with what avionics you 

install, to add those skills.

For example, I recently heard of a pilot trained on 430/530 equipment 

who received a present position direct to a fix, then got off course, 

couldn't understand why he shouldn't just push direct-direct again to 

change his course line. If he had a better understanding of the 

limitations of the ATC system and ground based nav, he would have 

understood the problem.

Sean Stephens wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 It's not just about GPS and GPS approaches.  That was the least of my 

 worries.  You still fly all the normal approaches the same way with an 

 EFIS like the G1000 that you do with a six-pack.  You're just using 

 different "tools" to accomplish the same flightpath.  You still have to 

 know how to tune the OBS and fly the course for example.  If it's on the 

 G1000 or via the NAV and indicator, that's just a matter of knowing the 

 "tool" to get the job done.

 And that is the jist of my question.  You still have to learn all the 

 procedures regardless of the tool.  If COST was not a factor (and it's a 

 very small factor for me), which "tool" would you rather train on?

 -Sean

 Kelly McMullen wrote:

> 

>

> Sure, if you want to be incompetent at the partial panel when the 

> glass panel goes black, which is 99.94% guaranteed to happen on a BFR, 

> IPC, if not in real life. Learn with the traditional instruments, it 

> gives you a far more thorough background. Besides, ATC isn't going to 

> let you fly anything but airways as soon as you get east of the Miss. 

> or west of the Sierras. GPS will be a very slow transition, given that 

> the Garmin GPS 100 came on the market 15 years ago, and there are 

> still less than 5 GPSs on the market that you can legally fly without 

> traditional nav backup in the plane. How are you going to understand 

> overlay approaches if you don't know how to fly the underlying approach?

> Tim Dawson-Townsend wrote:

>> Ditch the six-pack.  Go glass.

>>  

>> When I learned to drive, I did it in a car - I didn't bother to learn 

>> on a horse . . .

>>  

>> TDT

>> 40025

>> do not archive

>>  

>>

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD

GRANSCOTT(at)AOL.COM
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 4:28 am Post subject: OT: IFR Training With Six-Pack or G1000?

Sean I've got about 75 hours flying behind a G 1000, the only thing I would  say is that if you learn and take the test on the EFIS style products I don't  believe you'll be the greatest if you ever go to the basic 6 pack to fly  instruments as the pilot will need to see the route in their minds as compared  to having the route/app's layed out on the screen.  I believe it will be  very easy for a good 6 pack pilot to adapt to screen but not the other way  around...but that's just my opinion.

  

 Patrick

  

 do not archive

  [quote][b]

sean(at)stephensville.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 6:25 am Post subject: OT: IFR Training With Six-Pack or G1000?

Thanks for the comments everyone.   They've been helpful.  I just need 

to make a decision.



-Sean



Kelly McMullen wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I'd still train with the traditional setup. It actually is much easier 

 to fly, knobs and settings are far easier, but you have to learn to 

 mentally picture where you are, instead of seeing it on a moving map. 

 A very valuable skill. When you don't have the EFIS, do you still have 

 an OBS and a VOR/ILS you can tune, when the circuit breaker for that 

 EFIS breaks? Can you fly it and the backup steam gauges effectively, 

 when 75% of your training is with the EFIS. IMHO, you would be far 

 better off saving the 8 grand, learning the traditional stuff, then, 

 as Tim suggested, getting some dual in your RV10 with what avionics 

 you install, to add those skills.

 For example, I recently heard of a pilot trained on 430/530 equipment 

 who received a present position direct to a fix, then got off course, 

 couldn't understand why he shouldn't just push direct-direct again to 

 change his course line. If he had a better understanding of the 

 limitations of the ATC system and ground based nav, he would have 

 understood the problem.



 Sean Stephens wrote:

> 

>

> It's not just about GPS and GPS approaches.  That was the least of my 

> worries.  You still fly all the normal approaches the same way with 

> an EFIS like the G1000 that you do with a six-pack.  You're just 

> using different "tools" to accomplish the same flightpath.  You still 

> have to know how to tune the OBS and fly the course for example.  If 

> it's on the G1000 or via the NAV and indicator, that's just a matter 

> of knowing the "tool" to get the job done.

>

> And that is the jist of my question.  You still have to learn all the 

> procedures regardless of the tool.  If COST was not a factor (and 

> it's a very small factor for me), which "tool" would you rather train 

> on?

>

> -Sean

>

> Kelly McMullen wrote:

>> 

>>

>> Sure, if you want to be incompetent at the partial panel when the 

>> glass panel goes black, which is 99.94% guaranteed to happen on a 

>> BFR, IPC, if not in real life. Learn with the traditional 

>> instruments, it gives you a far more thorough background. Besides, 

>> ATC isn't going to let you fly anything but airways as soon as you 

>> get east of the Miss. or west of the Sierras. GPS will be a very 

>> slow transition, given that the Garmin GPS 100 came on the market 15 

>> years ago, and there are still less than 5 GPSs on the market that 

>> you can legally fly without traditional nav backup in the plane. How 

>> are you going to understand overlay approaches if you don't know how 

>> to fly the underlying approach?

>>

>>

>> Tim Dawson-Townsend wrote:

>>> Ditch the six-pack.  Go glass.

>>>  

>>> When I learned to drive, I did it in a car - I didn't bother to 

>>> learn on a horse . . .

>>>  

>>> TDT

>>> 40025

>>> do not archive

>>>

Tim(at)MyRV10.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 7:27 am Post subject: OT: IFR Training With Six-Pack or G1000?

Sean,  I'm pretty much with Kelly and Patrick on the one concept they

both brought up.  I was thinking about it myself before I read their

emails.   The EFIS is great, and you'll absolutely like flying it

more than anything else.  The thing is, it is just plain a good

skill to learn to learn the regular instruments well, and especially

get used to visualizing where you are WITHOUT a moving map.  Before

I had gone into my Intrument Training, my airline buddy pushed my

buttons a bit when he asked how I would get down and land without

an instrument rating.  I thought I could easily do it with a

handheld GPS to get at least near an airport and land.  He laughed

and said I won't have TIME for a handheld GPS when flying instruments

until I get a bunch of skills built.  He was very right...despite

having a moving map GPS in the cockpit, it was all I could do to

just keep the play flying level on course for a while, and then

adding the approaches solidified it for me.  I didn't end up

using the GPS at all until I was completely done, and it actually

felt good to be able to tune the OBS and know where you were in

relation to the approach chart.  I really think there's some value

there.   The rudimentary skills are very nice to have.  I'm not

at all knocking the EFIS's, of course, because hey, I'm sold on

those....G1000, Avidyne, Chelton, whatever.   And after you have

the rating, it will be easier to effectively use the additional

tools you get with those systems.  As far as having an EFIS

for the rating help with your future EFIS use, yeah, maybe it

would help a little, but unless you're actually going to buy

the G900/1000, you'll find too many differences between them

to really have it matter that much.  There will be a day when

nobody even has the opportunity to learn on steam gauges

anymore, but for now, consider that it may have some actual

value to it.  You KNOW you'll be flying an EFIS some day, so you

may as well take the opportunity to learn the other side now.

Mind-expanding experiences can be very good things.



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

do not archive

Kelly McMullen wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 I'd still train with the traditional setup. It actually is much easier 

 to fly, knobs and settings are far easier, but you have to learn to 

 mentally picture where you are, instead of seeing it on a moving map. A 

 very valuable skill. When you don't have the EFIS, do you still have an 

 OBS and a VOR/ILS you can tune, when the circuit breaker for that EFIS 

 breaks? Can you fly it and the backup steam gauges effectively, when 75% 

 of your training is with the EFIS. IMHO, you would be far better off 

 saving the 8 grand, learning the traditional stuff, then, as Tim 

 suggested, getting some dual in your RV10 with what avionics you 

 install, to add those skills.

 For example, I recently heard of a pilot trained on 430/530 equipment 

 who received a present position direct to a fix, then got off course, 

 couldn't understand why he shouldn't just push direct-direct again to 

 change his course line. If he had a better understanding of the 

 limitations of the ATC system and ground based nav, he would have 

 understood the problem.

 

 Sean Stephens wrote:

> 

>

> It's not just about GPS and GPS approaches.  That was the least of my 

> worries.  You still fly all the normal approaches the same way with an 

> EFIS like the G1000 that you do with a six-pack.  You're just using 

> different "tools" to accomplish the same flightpath.  You still have 

> to know how to tune the OBS and fly the course for example.  If it's 

> on the G1000 or via the NAV and indicator, that's just a matter of 

> knowing the "tool" to get the job done.

>

> And that is the jist of my question.  You still have to learn all the 

> procedures regardless of the tool.  If COST was not a factor (and it's 

> a very small factor for me), which "tool" would you rather train on?

>

> -Sean

>

> Kelly McMullen wrote:

>> 

>>

>> Sure, if you want to be incompetent at the partial panel when the 

>> glass panel goes black, which is 99.94% guaranteed to happen on a 

>> BFR, IPC, if not in real life. Learn with the traditional 

>> instruments, it gives you a far more thorough background. Besides, 

>> ATC isn't going to let you fly anything but airways as soon as you 

>> get east of the Miss. or west of the Sierras. GPS will be a very slow 

>> transition, given that the Garmin GPS 100 came on the market 15 years 

>> ago, and there are still less than 5 GPSs on the market that you can 

>> legally fly without traditional nav backup in the plane. How are you 

>> going to understand overlay approaches if you don't know how to fly 

>> the underlying approach?

>>

>>

>> Tim Dawson-Townsend wrote:

>>> Ditch the six-pack.  Go glass.

>>>  

>>> When I learned to drive, I did it in a car - I didn't bother to 

>>> learn on a horse . . .

>>>  

>>> TDT

>>> 40025

>>> do not archive

>>>  

>>>

>

>

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