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AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 5:55 pm Post subject: -10's for sale in quantity, available today

I do play one in real life.  And several friends who are current IAs are

giving it up due to insurance (>$8,000 per year).  At OSH, there was a

great seminar on financial liabilities of A & Ps touching kit built

aircraft.



Don't bet on having one help in a pinch.  Select one, cultivate a

relationship.  Share your knowledge.  Help. Learn. Fly Safe. Fly into

old age gracefully.  That Repairman Certificate evaporates when you stop

working on the exact aircraft it was issued on. It is non-transferable.

An A & P is only good while you maintain education, proficiency and have

the appropriate tools and manuals.



Seek guidance on the construction and maintenance of a great POH and

Conditional Maintenance Manual.  It can save big bucks down the road.



John Cox



--

AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 6:02 pm Post subject: -10's for sale in quantity, available today

Ask your insurance agent.  Required crew is listed in the Operations

Manual and is an ALWAYS kind of thing.  FAA Wavered Airspace (at OSH) is

a great example.  No GIB (guy in back) unless always required 100% of

the time and without exception - in writing.  Your pilot's certificate

does not empower you to interpret that rule.  Your Letter of

Authorization during Fly Off does from the DAR.

 

Your interpretation and that of your written voidable insurance policy

may well be at odds.



Don't bet on your assumption buying a get out of violation card.  A 250#

fool does not make for a proper ballast.  Oh and tongue in check, I am

down from 243# during Tim's Transitional training in N220RV to 230#.



John



--

Kellym

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1706
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 6:42 pm Post subject: -10's for sale in quantity, available today

What you say is a literal interpretation of the rules. While Part 43.13 

does not apply to amateur built experimental, any A&P that doesn't abide 

by it is leaving themselves wide open in terms of risk and liability. Do 

you really want a condition inspection done by an A&P that knows nothing 

about your airplane? Especially a plane used for aerobatics and inverted 

flight? An A&P used to inspecting flight school Cherokees and 172's 

won't have a clue what to look for and would be a fool to do an 

inspection on your aircraft. JMHO.



linn Walters wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I'm no A&P. nor do I play one on TV ...... but I do my own conditional 

 inspection on my Pitts since I am the builder.  It's been my experience 

 that the manufacturers manual and stuff applies only to certified 

 aircraft that have a type certificate to inspect to.  There is no such 

 'standard' to be applied to amateur built experimental aircraft, so none 

 is required.  Certified aircraft require signature by an AI for the 

 annual inspection.  An A&P, however, can sign off an experimental for 

 it's conditional inspection.

 Hope this muddies the water a little more.

 Linn

 do not archive

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD

pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 7:06 pm Post subject: -10's for sale in quantity, available today

Sorry Kelly, but I respectfully disagree.  If I was an A&P, I'd be 

rather put out with your characterization.  An airplane is an airplane, 

and the training that an A&P has applies to systems and construction no 

matter if it's assembled by an amateur or an airplane company.  I would 

expect that an A&P would apply the same basic inspection technique for a 

Piper 100 hr. or annual inspection to an experimental ...... which would 

check all the basic systems.  It's what he's trained to do.  It's what 

he's paid to do.  There are a lot of experimentals at my airport that 

aren't owned by the builder, and the A&Ps that inspect my certificated 

aircraft, also inspect those experimentals.  I don't think of them as 

ignorant, without a clue, or fools.  I think of them as professionals 

that they are, and am open minded enouth to learn from them.

Linn

do not archive

Kelly McMullen wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 What you say is a literal interpretation of the rules. While Part 

 43.13 does not apply to amateur built experimental, any A&P that 

 doesn't abide by it is leaving themselves wide open in terms of risk 

 and liability. Do you really want a condition inspection done by an 

 A&P that knows nothing about your airplane? Especially a plane used 

 for aerobatics and inverted flight? An A&P used to inspecting flight 

 school Cherokees and 172's won't have a clue what to look for and 

 would be a fool to do an inspection on your aircraft. JMHO.

 linn Walters wrote:

> 

> <pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.net>

>

> I'm no A&P. nor do I play one on TV ...... but I do my own 

> conditional inspection on my Pitts since I am the builder.  It's been 

> my experience that the manufacturers manual and stuff applies only to 

> certified aircraft that have a type certificate to inspect to.  There 

> is no such 'standard' to be applied to amateur built experimental 

> aircraft, so none is required.  Certified aircraft require signature 

> by an AI for the annual inspection.  An A&P, however, can sign off an 

> experimental for it's conditional inspection.

> Hope this muddies the water a little more.

> Linn

> do not archive

 http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

 http://wiki.matronics.com

Kellym

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1706
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 7:06 pm Post subject: -10's for sale in quantity, available today

Yup, I won't sign for an aircraft other than my own, because I refuse to 

pay the $12,000 other IA's in the area are paying for liability insurance.

KM

A&P/IA



John W. Cox wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 I do play one in real life.  And several friends who are current IAs are

 giving it up due to insurance (>$8,000 per year).  At OSH, there was a

 great seminar on financial liabilities of A & Ps touching kit built

 aircraft.

 

 Don't bet on having one help in a pinch.  Select one, cultivate a

 relationship.  Share your knowledge.  Help. Learn. Fly Safe. Fly into

 old age gracefully.  That Repairman Certificate evaporates when you stop

 working on the exact aircraft it was issued on. It is non-transferable.

 An A & P is only good while you maintain education, proficiency and have

 the appropriate tools and manuals.

 

 Seek guidance on the construction and maintenance of a great POH and

 Conditional Maintenance Manual.  It can save big bucks down the road.

 

 John Cox

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD

Kellym

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1706
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 7:30 pm Post subject: -10's for sale in quantity, available today

I am in no way insulting their knowledge of aircraft. But there is no 

way in hell they can understand what the design stresses are on a 

one-off experimental aircraft, what the designer intended, and whether 

it has been properly maintained. A&P's have no training to evaluate your 

non-aviation grade hardware commonly found in many homebuilts, other 

than to think bad things about it. What looks perfectly normal and safe 

on a Cherokee can kill you on a Pitts. If you don't have the plans or 

equally good manual to reference, you have no way of judging whether 

something is good for -1.5Gs or -4.0 Gs. If you knew the level of 

instruction at Part147 schools and the content of A&P tests like I do, 

you wouldn't be so trusting. I didn't say what they are doing isn't 

legal, just that they are sticking their necks out so far they will need 

binoculars to see their shoulders. I doubt you will find many non-A&Ps 

that will have a clue on the risks, how repairs that missed 1 item or 1 

step come back to bite you real hard.

linn Walters wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 Sorry Kelly, but I respectfully disagree.  If I was an A&P, I'd be 

 rather put out with your characterization.  An airplane is an airplane, 

 and the training that an A&P has applies to systems and construction no 

 matter if it's assembled by an amateur or an airplane company.  I would 

 expect that an A&P would apply the same basic inspection technique for a 

 Piper 100 hr. or annual inspection to an experimental ...... which would 

 check all the basic systems.  It's what he's trained to do.  It's what 

 he's paid to do.  There are a lot of experimentals at my airport that 

 aren't owned by the builder, and the A&Ps that inspect my certificated 

 aircraft, also inspect those experimentals.  I don't think of them as 

 ignorant, without a clue, or fools.  I think of them as professionals 

 that they are, and am open minded enouth to learn from them.

 Linn

 do not archive

 Kelly McMullen wrote:

> 

>

> What you say is a literal interpretation of the rules. While Part 

> 43.13 does not apply to amateur built experimental, any A&P that 

> doesn't abide by it is leaving themselves wide open in terms of risk 

> and liability. Do you really want a condition inspection done by an 

> A&P that knows nothing about your airplane? Especially a plane used 

> for aerobatics and inverted flight? An A&P used to inspecting flight 

> school Cherokees and 172's won't have a clue what to look for and 

> would be a fool to do an inspection on your aircraft. JMHO.

>

> linn Walters wrote:

>

>> 

>> <pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.net>

>>

>> I'm no A&P. nor do I play one on TV ...... but I do my own 

>> conditional inspection on my Pitts since I am the builder.  It's been 

>> my experience that the manufacturers manual and stuff applies only to 

>> certified aircraft that have a type certificate to inspect to.  There 

>> is no such 'standard' to be applied to amateur built experimental 

>> aircraft, so none is required.  Certified aircraft require signature 

>> by an AI for the annual inspection.  An A&P, however, can sign off an 

>> experimental for it's conditional inspection.

>> Hope this muddies the water a little more.

>> Linn

>> do not archive

>

>

> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

> http://wiki.matronics.com

>

>

 http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

 http://wiki.matronics.com

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD

Tdawson(at)avidyne.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 7:53 pm Post subject: -10's for sale in quantity, available today

Choices for test pilot:

1) me, 260 hour pilot, instrument rating.  Only real experience in C-172 and Warrior.  Ten hours transition training in RV-10.

2) one of a few professional test pilots I know.  Hours in the thousands.  Types in the dozens.  Conceptually, zero hours in the RV-10.



The irony is that option 1) would be covered by our insurance.  Option 2) would not be covered, unless I pay the test pilot to fly down to TX and then pay for him to fly with Alex for 10 hours.  That's probably $2000 and having to fine someone who doesn't mind using one of their weekends to go to TX . . .



TDT

40025

--

KiloPapa

Joined: 24 May 2006
Posts: 142
Location: Pearblossom, CA

Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 8:24 pm Post subject: -10's for sale in quantity, available today

Respectfully:



It is not a perfect world and life is full of risks.  We would be nowhere if 

people throughout history had not taken risks and we are the beneficories

of those who did.  All this legalistic scrutiny of inspections, kit 

building, flying, etc. makes me think I should sell my kit (at a loss-don't 

start in again),

my tools, and wait in my bomb shelter for the world to end.



Maybe we could start up another forum on Matronics called "Kitbuilding Gloom 

and Doom".



Kevin

40494

afraid to continue my building

_________________
Kevin
40494

do not archive

pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 8:38 pm Post subject: -10's for sale in quantity, available today

Kevin, how much do you want for your kit???  Have you done more than 51% 

yet?  Do we need to make you MORE afraid??? 



Yeah, I agree.  Sometimes I feel that insurance companies and lawyers 

are taking all the fun out of life.  When I'm in the shop, concentrating 

on airplane stuff, or flying ..... I tend to forget about all that. 

 Aviation is my escape.  I'm addicted, and when the Gov't finds out 

.... there goes that too!

Linn

do not archive



KiloPapa wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Respectfully:



 It is not a perfect world and life is full of risks.  We would be 

 nowhere if people throughout history had not taken risks and we are 

 the beneficories

 of those who did.  All this legalistic scrutiny of inspections, kit 

 building, flying, etc. makes me think I should sell my kit (at a 

 loss-don't start in again),

 my tools, and wait in my bomb shelter for the world to end.



 Maybe we could start up another forum on Matronics called "Kitbuilding 

 Gloom and Doom".



 Kevin

 40494

 afraid to continue my building  





 http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

 http://wiki.matronics.com

jclarkmail(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 8:41 pm Post subject: -10's for sale in quantity, available today

Tim,



I think there is another option, slim though it may be at the moment.



Get another RV-10 pilot who DOES have time in type to do some or all of the testing. Over time there will be more people with RV-10 time and the insurance companies will be happy with them. You can get them covered **probably** without anyincrease in policy as it appears your time would be the guiding factor on the rate. 



Of course there would need to be an undersanding between the two of you .. "Save **my* SKIN, then *your* TIN".



 I have two instances where I did this for friends and was FULLY covered by their policies (by name). In one case I was much younger and the other I had much more experience in type, so the rate did not increase. 



Don't know how close you are to finishing or how close you are to someone who could/would do it. Nor do I have any idea as to whether this is something you would consider. I just wanted to note it for the record.

 



James



On 7/31/06, Tim Dawson-Townsend <Tdawson(at)avidyne.com (Tdawson(at)avidyne.com)> wrote: 	  Quote: 	
		   

Choices for test pilot:

1) me, 260 hour pilot, instrument rating.  Only real experience in C-172 and Warrior.  Ten hours transition training in RV-10.

2) one of a few professional test pilots I know.  Hours in the thousands.  Types in the dozens.  Conceptually, zero hours in the RV-10. 



The irony is that option 1) would be covered by our insurance.  Option 2) would not be covered, unless I pay the test pilot to fly down to TX and then pay for him to fly with Alex for 10 hours.  That's probably $2000 and having to fine someone who doesn't mind using one of their weekends to go to TX . . . 



TDT

40025

jhstarn(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 9:21 pm Post subject: -10's for sale in quantity, available today

Missed the point.  "I should sell MY kit, MY tools", "afraid to continue MY 

building"  .

If YOU are building YOUR kit with YOUR tools, YOUR hands, YOUR blood,YOUR 

sweat & tears YOU are part of the Solution.

The problem (IMNSHO) is the guy who pays someone else to spend time 

building, pays for the use of someone's else's tools, pay the hanger rent 

etc etc & then claims to have "built" it himself. I sure would not want to 

go back to that guy & have him do the conditional inspection.

Can a RV-10 be built in three months, SURE, throw enough money at it...start 

with a QB everything & a dozen or so hands (six-ten guys as needed for their 

specialty), a fully equipped shop & unlimited money. No problem.

The first P-51 (without engine) was built in 102 days and nothing was 

QuickBuilt, prepunched or ordered "off the shelf".

Old plumbers saying "With an 18" Ridged pipe wrench, a place to stand & a 

long enough cheater bar I can turn the world". Key word: "CHEATER". Do Not 

Achieve  KABONG HRII N561FS (GBA& GWB)



---

dav1111(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 1:12 am Post subject: -10's for sale in quantity, available today

I insured my RV-10 with AIG through NationAir, who has carried my insurance 

on various airplanes for over 10 years.  My insurance binder DID NOT require 

any RV-10 transition training and I added my buddy as a named pilot for no 

extra charge.  I have in excess of 1400 hours (254 in an RV-6A), Instrument 

Rating, High Performance, and Complex Aircraft signoffs.  I also have NO 

INSURANCE claims in my history.



My buddy is a CFI, aerobatics competitor flying a YAK, with 2400 plus hours. 

I added Randy as a named insured to allow him to do some of the flyoff 

hours.  Randy is a school teacher and provided me an extra pair of hands 

this summer while he was on break and not working a second job.



I insured N710RV for $200,000 hull value with $100.00 deductible and 1 Mil 

liability.  The premium is $3,710.00 per year.



If someone gets a quote from an agent who tells you all insurance companies 

REQUIRE transition training in the RV-10, without regards to the insured's 

prior experience, the agent isn't doing you a very good job in negotiating a 

deal with the insurance company.  An aviation insurance agent is your 

negotiator with the insurance company.  If he or she is doing you a good job 

they will shop the coverage and negotiate you a better deal.  The key is to 

start working with a good agent at least two months before you want the 

insurance coverage to allow them time to do their thing.  It not a lot 

different than buying a car, if you walk in say you want that car and you 

want it today you WILL PAY a much higher price.



Russ Daves

N710RV - RV-10 Flying

N65RV - RV-6A Sold



---

wayne.e(at)grandecom.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 4:16 am Post subject: -10's for sale in quantity, available today

I think they are building them, registering it in0 their name, flying off the time and then selling it. And the argument could be0 made that he built it, registered it and then decided to sell it, which is0 completely legal but I think not the intent of the reg.

  

 Wayne Edgerton #40336

  

 do nor archive

GRANSCOTT(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 6:27 am Post subject: -10's for sale in quantity, available today

Russ,

  

 When talking to my Falcon agent they said the premium will be based on0 several items, pilot experience (recent), ratings, hull value, and seat on0 board.  

  

 In the RV 10 there are 4 seats in an experimental, Van's have a pretty0good0 safety record especially compared to a Cirrus but most other Van's have been VFR0 basic aircraft...most fatal accidents were due to pilot errors--like running out0 of gas etc.  Now that the RV 10 is flying that will mean that the group0 will be IFR, flying an aircraft that is moving a lot faster than many other040 seaters out there.  Cirrus was pretty high on the learning curve with a0 high initial rash of fatal accidents by low time, inexperienced pilots many0with0 freshly minted IFR ratings flying equipment they were barely familiar0 with.  

  

 Let's hope that by being a "true" builder, many RV 10 pilots will be much0 more familiar with their aircraft and avionics that will be a 200 hour freshly0 IFR Cirrus pilot.  But only time will tell the true safety record of0 building vs. buying.  

  

 In the next 10 years there will be more Van's flying than Cirrus and0 probably a lot of other companies planes built in the past 20 years.  Piper0 and Cessna are just barely building planes compared to historic numbers0 and Mooney, and the other boutique builders are building just enough planes0 to go from Chapter 11 to Chapter 11's.  Between the RV 6,7,8,9, 10 and012's0 there will be a huge fleet of Vans that insurance companies will be keenly0 interested in selling insurance.  But if the current owners begin crunching0 the experimentals with fatal accidents then the pool will get muddied quickly0 and rates will be horrific.

  

 As the RV 10 group grows there is an opportunity for a group to form of RV0 10 folks ala the MAPA group with transition training, and safety seminars that0 rotates about the US.  One can work with the insurance providers and get0 the seminar certified as an insurance rate reducing venture.

  

 I'm sure while Van's wants to continue growing, they want the group to0grow0 with them safely and that they have a group of individual builders and Van's0 probably does not want be a feed stock for a cottage industry skirting0the0 51% rule.  It would not be in there best interest having the FAA in Oregon0 dictating policy how they operate plus they would have additional liability0 knowing that they are a subcontractor to an aviation production company.

  

 Currently, the 51% rule and liability are somewhat in the hands of the0 Van's builders.  If one goes into a cottage industry, whether here or0 offshore, that will muddy the 51% rule even further.  Getting a group of0 "buyer" fake 51% rule pilots stepping up from a C 172 with low time and new0or0 no IFR rating will be a disaster for all Van's owners, IMHO.

  

 Patrick

  

 do not archive

jack.lockamy(at)navy.mil
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 7:02 am Post subject: -10's for sale in quantity, available today

The "buyer" can still do any/all of the maintenance on the airplane.  An A&P is NOT required for maintenance on the aircraft, however the buyer could elect to hire an A&P is he so desires or is not comfortable doing a particular maintenance task.  An A&P is only required to sign off the Annual Condition Inspection as the "buyer" does not hold the Repairman Certificate for that particular aircraft.  

Jack

AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 7:24 am Post subject: -10's for sale in quantity, available today

Linn, I respect your opinion and would just like to restate what should

become more obvious to kit build owners.  Each year and especially over

the next ten, a significant percentage of A & P mechanics with IA

designation are retiring.  Many are dropping out due to unreasonably

high insurance rates and increasing risk.



The FAA held a seminar on Aging Certified Aircraft at OSH. These risks

are increasing, the payment received is not. Homebuilts have a

statistically much higher chance of accident and fatalities.  When an

owner/builder/repairman sells his prized asset it is seldom with the

volumes of clear, concise instruction for the continued airworthiness of

a certificated production aircraft or with a trained, informed Customer

Service rep back at the factory (required by the FAA).  They are all One

of a Kind beauties in the eye of the seller.  Their documentation is

often a joke.



I think it is wonderful that you have such a mechanic.  Are you aware if

he/she might be operating without insurance.  Many are.  The statement

an airplane is an airplane is unfortunately naively vague.  Many

homebuilders gain needed information on continued airworthiness by word

of mouth not through factory guidance.  The documentation is frequently

woefully inadequate.  I have many close friends who own warbirds and

face such an extreme cost to maintain those great aged assets they look

for Pen 'N Ink Annual Inspections.



Keep up your optimism but my friends at work will enjoy reading about

your respect for their professionalism.  If the pay was commensurate,

more might stay.



John Cox



--

billderou(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 8:42 am Post subject: -10's for sale in quantity, available today

I have 1100 hours SEL private pilot with instrument rating. Most of my hours were in Cessna & Piper Archer class aircraft. Occasionally rented and have high performance and complex signoff.

   

  I took 6 hours of transitional training in an RV-10 and it will eliminate the biggest risk on my first flight -> ME. It was a big step from an Archer to the RV-10, and I believe the training to be very valuable. I can focus on the aircraft during the first flight and not attempt on-the-job training as well.

   

   

  Bill DeRouchey

  N939SB, Kit 40029

  billderou(at)yahoo.com

  do not archive

  



Russell Daves <dav1111(at)cox.net> wrote:

  



I insured my RV-10 with AIG through NationAir, who has carried my insurance 

on various airplanes for over 10 years. My insurance binder DID NOT require 

any RV-10 transition training and I added my buddy as a named pilot for no 

extra charge. I have in excess of 1400 hours (254 in an RV-6A), Instrument 

Rating, High Performance, and Complex Aircraft signoffs. I also have NO 

INSURANCE claims in my history.



My buddy is a CFI, aerobatics competitor flying a YAK, with 2400 plus hours. 

I added Randy as a named insured to allow him to do some of the flyoff 

hours. Randy is a school teacher and provided me an extra pair of hands 

this summer while he was on break and not working a second job.



I insured N710RV for $200,000 hull value with $100.00 deductible and 1 Mil 

liability. The premium is $3,710.00 per year.



If someone gets a quote from an agent who tells you all insurance companies 

REQUIRE transition training in the RV-10, without regards to the insured's 

prior experience, the agent isn't doing you a very good job in negotiating a 

deal with the insurance company. An aviation insurance agent is your 

negotiator with the insurance company. If he or she is doing you a good job 

they will shop the coverage and negotiate you a better deal. The key is to 

start working with a good agent at least two months before you want the 

insurance coverage to allow them time to do their thing. It not a lot 

different than buying a car, if you walk in say you want that car and you 

want it today you WILL PAY a much higher price.



Russ Daves

N710RV - RV-10 Flying

N65RV - RV-6A Sold



---

k5wiv(at)amsat.org
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 4:00 pm Post subject: -10's for sale in quantity, available today

Correct!  Unless, or course, I can't read or understand the0 FARs.

  

 

Jack & Cecilia Sargeant 

1127 Patricia St. 

Wichita,0 KS 67208-2642 

316/683-5268  [quote]   --

BSchroeder(at)uta.cog.ut.
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 7:45 am Post subject: -10's for sale in quantity, available today

John, don’t get me wrong. I can’t afford to do that either. As a matter of fact I sold my RV10 and got an RV6A solely because I can’t afford to build the 10. Still, I guess that I don’t really see the problem. It seems that if there is going to be a market for our homebuilt aircraft, (I hope, because I won’t be able to fly forever) then it’s one of the things that we have to put up with. Would someone please quote the 51% rule verbatim, here, as I still am under the belief that ii don’t have to build 51% of an airplane to own and fly it. It only matters for the repairman’s certificate. At least that’s my understanding. Bill Cosby in one of his comedy albums accused his brother of being the “big Jello sheriff of the house” for pointing out to their father that he had already had 2 helpings of Jello earlier. From my point of view, people building planes for hire don’t bother me and might possibly make the market better. I have seen many homebuilt aircraft that I wouldn’t to be anywhere around, and if someone wants to buy an experimental aircraft then he/she needs to spend some time verifying that the plane that they are buying is a good one, be it me, that built it for my personal “education and enjoyment” or from someone that wants to make money on it. I hope that when it comes time to sell mine I can make some money (in fifteen years). I’m just saying that putting the spot light on the situation for “big brother” to stick his nose under the edge of the tent as it were, is just asking for rules designed for the lowest common denominator in people have an adverse affect on the rest of us that play by the rules.   

   

--

AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 8:58 am Post subject: -10's for sale in quantity, available today

Bob, let me pipe in for Mr. Lenhardt.  Anyone purchasing or considering purchase of a Kitplane should have the passage memorized to heart and understand the journey (which should be unending – education).  The build rule has never been 51% of the work.  It is 51% of the appropriate tasks. Yes, you can hire your neighbor or the kids at Home Depot to help with much of the work. The Task Force is reviewing which build tasks are appropriate for compliance as a result of builders installing glass cockpits, faster speeds, higher performance, advanced build materials and improved build techniques.  The Fast Build concept was not even in existence when the rule was originally adopted.  The FAA has waived powerplant, interior, exterior topcoat paint, aircraft wiring, firewall forward and a bunch of stuff as tasks.  Example:  Wood ribs, fabric covering and other build tasks not appropriate to aluminum riveted or composite construction.  Now add Stir Welding to the pot along with 1250 shp turboprop powerplants and they need to update the tasks quickly.  

   

Fast Build is predicated on the builder still having to demonstrate knowledge and skill at those tasks which are Appropriate. Van took some of the mundane, repetitive tasks and agreed with the FAA to allow foreign nationals to do the repetition. The Amateur built Kitplane was never intended to allow individuals or businesses to go into production for the intent to repetitive resell.  The FAA has always allowed the sale of a homebuilt aircraft to a single non-builder.  The glaring spot light last year was on the advanced technology and the lack of tasks on Rick Schrameck’s Epic LT (which by the way is going into kit form with twin turbine jet engines).  Maybe now you see the technology dilemma. And Rick has been clear he is headed the same path as Lance Neuberger into a Certified Production Certificate (Columbia) here in Bend, OR.  The Task Force will have to deal with the sticky situation of individuals who build two, three or ten aircraft under the Amateur Built Rule with the clear intent to mask and avoid compliance with a Certified Part 23 Production aircraft process.  Education is either not their goal or they are really slow learners.  

   

Big Brother allowed this homebuilt rule, it is the errant builders who have lifted the rock of secrecy and shed light on what is a lucrative side business of fraudulent kit-build operations.  Many of us will have to wait and see if the few become hurt the many.  I for one have been attracted by the technology advances in avionics and systems as a result of innovation, hard work and individual desire.  Kit build is here to stay.  Whether the production shops can avoid what happened to Dr. Cadwell is another thing.  Lets get a series of DARs who actually test the applicant on the skills and knowledge acquired before issuing the certificate.  Let the process find the crooked DARS who willfully issue Airworthiness Certificates for the third, four and more identical aircraft… they are the ones hurting the kit-build community.  

   

John Cox – KUAO  

Do not Archive – cause this subject has been beat ad nauseum  

         

  

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Schroeder, Bob (Parts Clerk)

 Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2006 8:42 AM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: -10's for sale in quantity, available today  

  

   

John, don’t get me wrong. I can’t afford to do that either. As a matter of fact I sold my RV10 and got an RV6A solely because I can’t afford to build the 10. Still, I guess that I don’t really see the problem. It seems that if there is going to be a market for our homebuilt aircraft, (I hope, because I won’t be able to fly forever) then it’s one of the things that we have to put up with. Would someone please quote the 51% rule verbatim, here, as I still am under the belief that ii don’t have to build 51% of an airplane to own and fly it. It only matters for the repairman’s certificate. At least that’s my understanding. Bill Cosby in one of his comedy albums accused his brother of being the “big Jello sheriff of the house” for pointing out to their father that he had already had 2 helpings of Jello earlier. From my point of view, people building planes for hire don’t bother me and might possibly make the market better. I have seen many homebuilt aircraft that I wouldn’t to be anywhere around, and if someone wants to buy an experimental aircraft then he/she needs to spend some time verifying that the plane that they are buying is a good one, be it me, that built it for my personal “education and enjoyment” or from someone that wants to make money on it. I hope that when it comes time to sell mine I can make some money (in fifteen years). I’m just saying that putting the spot light on the situation for “big brother” to stick his nose under the edge of the tent as it were, is just asking for rules designed for the lowest common denominator in people have an adverse affect on the rest of us that play by the rules.   

   

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