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Aera 660 Bare Wire Cradle Question

 
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farmrjohn



Joined: 31 Dec 2018
Posts: 19

PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 6:31 pm    Post subject: Aera 660 Bare Wire Cradle Question Reply with quote

NOOB question: I have a Garmin Aera 660 that I'd like to use their bare wire cradle to connect to aircraft power and utilize the 232 and audio outputs. Is the best way to do that is connect all nine wires in a D-sub connector to provide connections to the other devices? If so, would it be best to use a male of female connector? For now the planned distribution would be audio for warnings to Garmin GTR 200 and gps position information to the ELT. At some point the second 232 output would be for navigational display. This is in addition to the power and ground for the 660 itself. Thanks.

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user9253



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Location: Riley TWP Michigan

PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 6:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Aera 660 Bare Wire Cradle Question Reply with quote

If the GPS has a male connector and the aircraft wiring has the female connector, then there is less chance of accidentally shorting out the power wires.

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farmrjohn



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PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2019 12:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Aera 660 Bare Wire Cradle Question Reply with quote

user9253 wrote:
If the GPS has a male connector and the aircraft wiring has the female connector, then there is less chance of accidentally shorting out the power wires.


Thanks. Would connector shells be necessary as well?


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user9253



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PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2019 2:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Aera 660 Bare Wire Cradle Question Reply with quote

D-Sub Backshells support the wires and act as a strain relief to help prevent wires from breaking where they are crimped or soldered. I would use the backshells unless the wires are supported some other way.

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farmrjohn



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PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2019 1:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Aera 660 Bare Wire Cradle Question Reply with quote

Bare Wire Question, Part II. I asked Garmin about the AWG for the wires in the harness. Their reply 20AWG for power and ground, and 26AWG or 28AWG for the others. The pins I see online at Aircraft Spruce of Steinair only show 20-24AWG as the working range. Are pins for the smaller wires available, and will they work in a standard d-sub connector? I would use either 20 or 22 for the connections to the rest of the airplane.

Edit-I've looked at the Mouser and Digikey sites and found some pins for the smaller wires, but can't tell if they fit the same holes in the connector as the 20-24AWG pins.

Bare Wire Question, Part III. What I would like to do is have the d-sub at the end of the 660 cradle bare wires, and have the other wires distribute to power, ground, 232 to the elt, and audio the radio. That seems like 1 male, and 1 female d-sub plus a shell for each. How do you determine what connector/shell combination to get as well as the actual connecting bits to hold everything together?


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user9253



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PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2019 3:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Aera 660 Bare Wire Cradle Question Reply with quote

Digikey has D-Sub contacts made for 28 AWG wire. Mouser also has them but their search engine makes them hard to find unless you search for the manufacturer's part number. Be careful not to buy the high density contacts which will not fit in a regular density connector. An option is to buy all one size, 20-24, and, when using smaller wire, fill the void with a short piece of solid hookup wire. Or fold the small wire back on itself to make it twice as big.
Code:
https://www.digikey.com/products/en/connectors-interconnects/d-sub-d-shaped-connectors-contacts/332?FV=ffe0014c%2C13800b2%2C16040027%2C1f140000&quantity=0&ColumnSort=1000011&page=1&stock=1&k=D-Sub&pageSize=25&pkeyword=D-Sub


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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
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PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2019 10:18 am    Post subject: Aera 660 Bare Wire Cradle Question Reply with quote

At 04:02 PM 5/28/2019, you wrote:
Quote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "farmrjohn" <faithvineyard(at)yahoo.com>

Bare Wire Question, Part II. I asked Garmin about the AWG for the wires in the harness. Their reply 20AWG for power and ground, and 26AWG or 28AWG for the others. The pins I see online at Aircraft Spruce of Steinair only show 20-24AWG as the working range. Are pins for the smaller wires available, and will they work in a standard d-sub connector? I would use either 20 or 22 for the connections to the rest of the airplane.

22AWG is quite adequate for all the Garmin
wiring. That '20AWG power and ground" meme
has been around for decades . . . I have no
idea as to the rational behind it in small
appliances that draw small currents. I suppose
someone thought that it was a good thing to
minimize the resistance/reactance between
their electro-whizzy and the ship's power
supply . . . but to levy this as a requirement
suggests that their DO160 qualification testing
was sketchy . . . it makes no sense to me
whatsoever.


Bob . . .


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ceengland7(at)gmail.com
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PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2019 11:01 am    Post subject: Aera 660 Bare Wire Cradle Question Reply with quote

Sent from BlueMail
On May 29, 2019, at 1:22 PM, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:
Quote:
At 04:02 PM 5/28/2019, you wrote:
Quote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "farmrjohn" <faithvineyard(at)yahoo.com>

Bare Wire Question, Part II. I asked Garmin about the AWG for the wires in the harness. Their reply 20AWG for power and ground, and 26AWG or 28AWG for the others. The pins I see online at Aircraft Spruce of Steinair only show 20-24AWG as the working range. Are pins for the smaller wires available, and will they work in a standard d-sub connector? I would use either 20 or 22 for the connections to the rest of the airplane.

22AWG is quite adequate for all the Garmin
wiring. That '20AWG power and ground" meme
has been around for decades . . . I have no
idea as to the rational behind it in small
appliances that draw small currents. I suppose
someone thought that it was a good thing to
minimize the resistance/reactance between
their electro-whizzy and the ship's power
supply . . . but to levy this as a requirement
suggests that their DO160 qualification testing
was sketchy . . . it makes no sense to me
whatsoever.


Bob . . . John,On the pin question, I'd just strip a 22 gauge wire and stick it in next to the 24 or 28 gauge wire in a standard pin, prior to crimping.


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farmrjohn



Joined: 31 Dec 2018
Posts: 19

PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2019 12:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Aera 660 Bare Wire Cradle Question Reply with quote

user9253 wrote:
Digikey has D-Sub contacts made for 28 AWG wire. Mouser also has them but their search engine makes them hard to find unless you search for the manufacturer's part number. Be careful not to buy the high density contacts which will not fit in a regular density connector. An option is to buy all one size, 20-24, and, when using smaller wire, fill the void with a short piece of solid hookup wire. Or fold the small wire back on itself to make it twice as big.
Code:
https://www.digikey.com/products/en/connectors-interconnects/d-sub-d-shaped-connectors-contacts/332?FV=ffe0014c%2C13800b2%2C16040027%2C1f140000&quantity=0&ColumnSort=1000011&page=1&stock=1&k=D-Sub&pageSize=25&pkeyword=D-Sub


Thanks for the link. I did manage to find some 22-28awg pins and sockets with the Digikey search, and that prompted my question about the socket size. It looks like the Digikey part A34501-ND will fit the male d-sub for the bare wire harness as previously suggested.


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farmrjohn



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Posts: 19

PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2019 12:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Aera 660 Bare Wire Cradle Question Reply with quote

ceengland7(at)gmail.com wrote:
Sent from BlueMail
On May 29, 2019, at 1:22 PM, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls> wrote:
Quote:
At 04:02 PM 5/28/2019, you wrote:
Quote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "farmrjohn" <faithvineyard>

Bare Wire Question, Part II. I asked Garmin about the AWG for the wires in the harness. Their reply 20AWG for power and ground, and 26AWG or 28AWG for the others. The pins I see online at Aircraft Spruce of Steinair only show 20-24AWG as the working range. Are pins for the smaller wires available, and will they work in a standard d-sub connector? I would use either 20 or 22 for the connections to the rest of the airplane.

Power and Ground are shown as 20 AWG. 
22AWG is quite adequate for all the Garmin
wiring. That '20AWG power and ground" meme
has been around for decades . . . I have no
idea as to the rational behind it in small
appliances that draw small currents. I suppose
someone thought that it was a good thing to
minimize the resistance/reactance between
their electro-whizzy and the ship's power
supply . . . but to levy this as a requirement
suggests that their DO160 qualification testing
was sketchy . . . it makes no sense to me
whatsoever.


Bob . . . John,On the pin question, I'd just strip a 22 gauge wire and stick it in next to the 24 or 28 gauge wire in a standard pin, prior to crimping.


The actual bare wires with the 660 cradle are different sizes with the ends pre-stripped. This is the response I received from Garmin when I asked what size the wires were:

"Thank you for contacting Garmin International. The AERA 660 wiring harness AWG are as follows:
Pins 1, 5 are 26AWG wire
All other pins are 28AWG

Power and Ground are shown as 20 AWG."

Their bare wire cradle has no pins specified, just the different functions and wire color, ie. RS-232 RX 1 Yellow, RS-232 TX 1 Blue. The red power wire does have a 3 amp inline fuse and holder spiced in just prior to the free end.

Bare Wire Question, Part IV. Would a crimper such as https://www.steinair.com/product/4-way-indent-crimper/ work with the 26-28awg pins or would using the "standard" 20-24awg pin with a second filler wire be a better option?

Thanks, and sorry about not being able to combine and edit quotes in my messages..


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PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2019 7:36 am    Post subject: Aera 660 Bare Wire Cradle Question Reply with quote

Do you think we could get a petition to these manufacturers that think they're doing someone a favor by shipping products with these "whiskers pretending to be wires" sticking out? (I'm talking to YOU, Ray Allen). Is there any builder that doesn't first have to figure out how to strip those tiny wires without breaking the wires and then find the crimpers to attach a pin to shove into a DB-9 connector? Just stick a stupid female DB connector on the appliance case, because that is what every single person is going to have to do for a maintenance disconnect anyway. There would be so many fewer curse words in my lexicon if this was just standard practice.


On Wednesday, May 29, 2019, 3:01:58 PM EDT, Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> wrote:





Sent from BlueMail
On May 29, 2019, at 1:22 PM, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:
Quote:
At 04:02 PM 5/28/2019, you wrote:
Quote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "farmrjohn" <faithvineyard(at)yahoo.com>

Bare Wire Question, Part II. I asked Garmin about the AWG for the wires in the harness. Their reply 20AWG for power and ground, and 26AWG or 28AWG for the others. The pins I see online at Aircraft Spruce of Steinair only show 20-24AWG as the working range. Are pins for the smaller wires available, and will they work in a standard d-sub connector? I would use either 20 or 22 for the connections to the rest of the airplane.

22AWG is quite adequate for all the Garmin
wiring. That '20AWG power and ground" meme
has been around for decades . . . I have no
idea as to the rational behind it in small
appliances that draw small currents. I suppose
someone thought that it was a good thing to
minimize the resistance/reactance between
their electro-whizzy and the ship's power
supply . . . but to levy this as a requirement
suggests that their DO160 qualification testing
was sketchy . . . it makes no sense to me
whatsoever.


Bob . . . John,On the pin question, I'd just strip a 22 gauge wire and stick it in next to the 24 or 28 gauge wire in a standard pin, prior to crimping.


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PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2019 10:34 am    Post subject: Aera 660 Bare Wire Cradle Question Reply with quote

Quote:

> > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "farmrjohn"
> > >
> > > Bare Wire Question, Part II. I asked Garmin about the AWG for the wires in the harness. Their reply 20AWG for power and ground, and 26AWG or 28AWG for the others. The pins I see online at Aircraft Spruce of Steinair only show 20-24AWG as the working range. Are pins for the smaller wires available, and will they work in a standard d-sub connector? I would use either 20 or 22 for the connections to the rest of the airplane.
> >

If it were my airplane:

https://tinyurl.com/y5slt47b

The harness mod drawing above speaks
to a cleaner installation and no special
pins or tools.



Bob . . .


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PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2019 10:47 am    Post subject: Aera 660 Bare Wire Cradle Question Reply with quote

At 10:35 AM 5/30/2019, you wrote:
Quote:
Do you think we could get a petition to these manufacturers that think they're doing someone a favor by shipping products with these "whiskers pretending to be wires" sticking out? (I'm talking to YOU, Ray Allen). Is there any builder that doesn't first have to figure out how to strip those tiny wires without breaking the wires and then find the crimpers to attach a pin to shove into a DB-9 connector? Just stick a stupid female DB connector on the appliance case, because that is what every single person is going to have to do for a maintenance disconnect anyway. There would be so many fewer curse words in my lexicon if this was just standard practice.

Tried that . . . several times . . .
about 20 years. The RayAllen folks
in the booth at OSH just shrugged it
off, "Haven't had any complaints . . .
been do'n it this way for years."

Actually, they're very much AWARE
of the problems as illustrated on their
FAQs page:

[img]cid:.0[/img]
These paragraphs are illustrative of
their intransigence and why I crafted this
ShopNote.

https://tinyurl.com/cmq7epd




Bob . . .


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farmrjohn



Joined: 31 Dec 2018
Posts: 19

PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2019 12:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Aera 660 Bare Wire Cradle Question Reply with quote

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect wrote:
Quote:

> >

If it were my airplane:

https://tinyurl.com/y5slt47b

The harness mod drawing above speaks
to a cleaner installation and no special
pins or tools.



Bob . . .


Thanks, I hadn't considered cutting the 660 harness. For connections I'm planning on Red to power (from aux plug that the current plug in harness goes-no fancy GPS EFI installed), Black to ground, Blue RS-232 TX to ACK E-04 elt, Green Audio Common to GTR200 pin 31 audio in lo, and Brown Audio Left to GTR200 pin 32 audio in hi. The audio connections are per Garmin. I don't plan on connecting the data portion of the 660 to the GTR200. The 660 Pilot's Guide Appendix D does address the bare wire connections, but not the pins and connectors used.


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farmrjohn



Joined: 31 Dec 2018
Posts: 19

PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2019 12:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Aera 660 Bare Wire Cradle Question Reply with quote

Some confusion on wiring the RS-232 signal to the ELT has cropped up. There is no power out provision from the 660 cradle to provide power to the ELT which ACK requires (protected by 1 amp fuse/cb). The ACK Installation Advisory has the following:
"NOTE: 22 or 24 gage M27500 shielded 3 conductor cable or M22759 individual wires should be used for the cable assembly if using individual wires the RS 232 data line from the GPS should be shielded and grounded at both ends."

but the current installation manual, dated 6 months later, states:
"A three conductor shielded cable 24 AWG or heaver,
(Aircraft Spruce P/N 11-04478 or equivalent) should be used to connect the ELT RS 232 data and power to the aircraft systems…3.) Connect one conductor to pin 3 (Fig. 12.1) and connect to aircraft ground at the cockpit. connect the outer shield to ground, at the cockpit end only."

If using individual wires, should the shield be grounded at both ends or just at the aircraft ground as if using the three conductor cable? Also, if using the three conductor cable, what would be the best way to separate the 232 data wire from the power and ground wires? They will not be connecting at the same place since the power source is not coming via the 660 cradle harness.

Sorry for the NOOB questions.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2019 1:42 pm    Post subject: Aera 660 Bare Wire Cradle Question Reply with quote

Running power through a multi-conductor cable (M27500) simplifies a retrofit installation in that only the control cable and the power/data wire need to be run the length of the aircraft. Since that’s a big part of their market, that’s probably why it’s drawn that way. I simply splice the power wire in at the same point the data line is spliced in. How you do this is up to you (solder joint, butt splice, small connector, etc.).

A single conductor shielded wire for the data and a separate unshielded wire for power would work fine if that works better for the way you need/want to run the wires. In an all-metal aircraft I see no benefit to returning the ground back to the start point like what is in their drawing. A local ground near the data connector would be sufficient.

My general rule of thumb for data lines is to ground the shield at both ends. That seems to be standard practice in just about every install manual of recent vintage.

Have fun soldering that mini DIN connector - it’s very easy to overheat the pins and melt the plastic housing. Use a heat sink on the pin (locate it next to the housing), get on, solder, get off quickly.

Chuck

On Jun 9, 2019, at 3:29 PM, farmrjohn <faithvineyard(at)yahoo.com> wrote:



Some confusion on wiring the RS-232 signal to the ELT has cropped up. There is no power out provision from the 660 cradle to provide power to the ELT which ACK requires (protected by 1 amp fuse/cb). The ACK Installation Advisory has the following:
"NOTE: 22 or 24 gage M27500 shielded 3 conductor cable or M22759 individual wires should be used for the cable assembly if using individual wires the RS 232 data line from the GPS should be shielded and grounded at both ends."

but the current installation manual, dated 6 months later, states:
"A three conductor shielded cable 24 AWG or heaver,
(Aircraft Spruce P/N 11-04478 or equivalent) should be used to connect the ELT RS 232 data and power to the aircraft systems…3.) Connect one conductor to pin 3 (Fig. 12.1) and connect to aircraft ground at the cockpit. connect the outer shield to ground, at the cockpit end only."

If using individual wires, should the shield be grounded at both ends or just at the aircraft ground as if using the three conductor cable? Also, if using the three conductor cable, what would be the best way to separate the 232 data wire from the power and ground wires? They will not be connecting at the same place since the power source is not coming via the 660 cradle harness.

Sorry for the NOOB questions.


Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=489559#489559


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2019 7:02 am    Post subject: Aera 660 Bare Wire Cradle Question Reply with quote

Quote:

but the current installation manual, dated 6 months later, states:
"A three conductor shielded cable 24 AWG or heaver,

Hmmm . . . . Given the short runs and low
power levels it seems unlikely that
anyone experienced degraded performance
as a consequence of voltage drops. However
24 AWG is about the smallest practical
size for hand-assembled wiring and even
that was not well received on our production
lines at RAC/Beech. I've personally never
designed an airframe harnesses with smaller
than 22AWG wire . . . works good, lasts
a long time, easy to work with.

Quote:
(Aircraft Spruce P/N 11-04478 or equivalent) should be used to connect
the ELT RS 232 data and power to the aircraft systems3.) Connect one
conductor to pin 3 (Fig. 12.1) and connect to aircraft ground at the
cockpit. connect the outer shield to ground, at the cockpit end only."

In what document does figure 12.1
appear? I'd like to look at it if
it's downloadable . . .

This is best practice . . . unless the
shield is a CONDUCTOR of data or power
by design. I.e. I used to build a lot
of RS232 runs from 22AWG shielded, twisted
pair where the shield was used as signal
ground for the TX/RX pair.

But if the shield is simply a prophylactic
against electro-static coupling of noise,
then a ground at one end will suffice and
avoid other potential difficulties with
ground loop currents on the shield (a
potential problem on large, all metal
aircraft . . . something I've never seen
but it was talked about in EMC class).

In any case, the best approach is to follow
the manufacture's installation instructions
unless you've been made aware of some error
on the part of the folks who wrote the
manual.

Quote:
If using individual wires, should the shield be grounded at both ends or just at the aircraft ground as if using the three conductor cable?

A you planning on building your own
shielded run of wires?

Quote:
Also, if using the three conductor cable, what would be the best
way to separate the 232 data wire from the power and ground wires?

Don't understand. One cable would carry
RS-232 . . . an independent cable would
carry power . . . no physical 'separation'
necesasry.

Quote:
They will not be connecting at the same place since the power
source is not coming via the 660 cradle harness.

Not a problem



Bob . . .


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farmrjohn



Joined: 31 Dec 2018
Posts: 19

PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:34 am    Post subject: Re: Aera 660 Bare Wire Cradle Question Reply with quote

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect wrote:
Quote:

but the current installation manual, dated 6 months later, states:
"A three conductor shielded cable 24 AWG or heaver,

Hmmm . . . . Given the short runs and low
power levels it seems unlikely that
anyone experienced degraded performance
as a consequence of voltage drops. However
24 AWG is about the smallest practical
size for hand-assembled wiring and even
that was not well received on our production
lines at RAC/Beech. I've personally never
designed an airframe harnesses with smaller
than 22AWG wire . . . works good, lasts
a long time, easy to work with.

Quote:
(Aircraft Spruce P/N 11-04478 or equivalent) should be used to connect
the ELT RS 232 data and power to the aircraft systems�3.) Connect one
conductor to pin 3 (Fig. 12.1) and connect to aircraft ground at the
cockpit. connect the outer shield to ground, at the cockpit end only."

In what document does figure 12.1
appear? I'd like to look at it if
it's downloadable . . .

This is best practice . . . unless the
shield is a CONDUCTOR of data or power
by design. I.e. I used to build a lot
of RS232 runs from 22AWG shielded, twisted
pair where the shield was used as signal
ground for the TX/RX pair.

But if the shield is simply a prophylactic
against electro-static coupling of noise,
then a ground at one end will suffice and
avoid other potential difficulties with
ground loop currents on the shield (a
potential problem on large, all metal
aircraft . . . something I've never seen
but it was talked about in EMC class).

In any case, the best approach is to follow
the manufacture's installation instructions
unless you've been made aware of some error
on the part of the folks who wrote the
manual.

Quote:
If using individual wires, should the shield be grounded at both ends or just at the aircraft ground as if using the three conductor cable?

A you planning on building your own
shielded run of wires?

Quote:
Also, if using the three conductor cable, what would be the best
way to separate the 232 data wire from the power and ground wires?

Don't understand. One cable would carry
RS-232 . . . an independent cable would
carry power . . . no physical 'separation'
necesasry.

Quote:
They will not be connecting at the same place since the power
source is not coming via the 660 cradle harness.

Not a problem



Bob . . .


Fig. 12.1 is from the ACK model E-04 installation operations manual and is downloadabl:. https://www.ackavionics.com/e-04-technical-information/

I would consider building my own run of wires using a shielded wire for the 232, and unshielded for power and ground. My question about separating the wires from the three conductor cable deals with getting the necessary length for the power and ground leads since they won't connect in the same location as the d-sub where the 232 wire does. A solder sleeve for the ground wire and shield will work to get the added length necessary to get to the ground point and I suppose splicing and additional length to the power wire would work. Or, I could try stripping off the outer insulation of the cable then cut back the 232 wire to length before connecting to the d-sub.


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