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E-Bus Fuse Size

 
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user9253



Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1311
Location: Riley TWP Michigan

PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 4:35 pm    Post subject: E-Bus Fuse Size Reply with quote

A pilot recently experienced an instrument panel blackout at night. When he turned on the E-Bus switch, the panel briefly came back on, but soon went black again. Luckily the weather was good and he landed safely. You can read about it here.
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=165520
The E-Bus was protected by 15 amp fuses. Evidently the second and third owners of the aircraft connected more loads to the E-Ebus, eventually overloading it.
If two fuses are connected in series, even if one is bigger, either one or both could blow in case of hard ground fault.
Should the E-Bus have main fuses?
If so, then how much larger should the main fuse be than a branch circuit fuse?


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 6:20 am    Post subject: E-Bus Fuse Size Reply with quote

At 07:35 PM 10/31/2018, you wrote:
Quote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>

A pilot recently experienced an instrument panel blackout at night.

What was the failure that took down his main
bus?

Quote:
When he turned on the E-Bus switch, the panel briefly came back on, but soon went black again. Luckily the weather was good and he landed safely. You can read about it here.
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=165520
The E-Bus was protected by 15 amp fuses. Evidently the second and third owners of the aircraft connected more loads to the E-Ebus, eventually overloading it.

Yup . . . ignorance is your worst enemy . . .
sometimes the foundation for fatal mistakes.

Quote:
If two fuses are connected in series, even if one is bigger, either one or both could blow in case of hard ground fault.
Should the E-Bus have main fuses?
If so, then how much larger should the main fuse be than a branch circuit fuse?

The z-figures are too often treated as "the
way to set up my airplane" . . . they are
ARCHITECTURE drawings that consider options
for minimizing risk under various failure modes.

The values for wire and fuses are exemplar,
not necessarily applicable to any one builder's
project.

The very FIRST step in planning the ship's
final configuration is to do a LOAD ANALYSIS.
It's real simple. The web-page at

https://tinyurl.com/9rt6ymn

offers two type of tools. One based on paper-
pencil-pink-pearl technology. The other uses
Excel. Either method gets the job done. I prefer
the paper/pencil approach . . . it fits in the
3-ring binder of shop notes.

There is a form that can be downloaded from

http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Load_Analysis/Blank_Form.pdf

You need one page for EACH bus in the aircraft.
Just how many busses is driven by choice of
architecture. Devices fed by those busses
is driven by your "plan-b" analysis for dealing
with single failures of any electro-whizzie.

The sums of running loads for each bus are
critical to calculating ship's endurance mode
loads and sizing the battery to meet endurance
mode design goals.

These pages do another good thing. They
are the INDEX for a page-per-system wire book.
Each fuse/breaker on a bus gets sized, paired with
appropriate wire and tagged as to what page
that system's wiring details will be found.

Once the e-bus running loads are established,
ONLY THEN does one have sufficient information to
size the normal and alternate feed protection.
One COULD take the uber-conservative approach
and wire these paths with say 10AWG wire protected
with MAX40 fuses . . . or you can use data
described in the load-analysis to size the
wire/protection with at least 100% headroom
based on running loads.

Those are BUS feeders and need to be ROBUST with
respect to total running loads on the bus. The
original e-busses had typical running loads on
the order of 3-4 amps. But as endurance mode
support (SD-8 etc) got bigger, the constellation
of e-bus hardware went up too.

Had the original builder of this aircraft provided
such information with the sale of his project,
the future owners would at least possess information
necessary for well crafted modifications to
their aircraft. I've done my share of
b*#$$n and m(#$&g about the uber-regulated
TC aircraft environment but the hat-dance-
of-paperwork associated with this topic
in TC aircraft has solid foundation.

When modifying the airplane, tho shalt
not mess with the aerodynamics, bust
the edges of the envelope for weight/
balance. You will validate structural integrity
of the installed device -AND- it's
attach points. Lastly . . . revisit
the electrical load analysis for validation
of performance and FMEA.

I'm pleased that this incident didn't have
a sad outcome. It's a good thing that we
learn from his experience.

Feel free to cross post this narrative
to the Van's support forums.





Bob . . .


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user9253



Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1311
Location: Riley TWP Michigan

PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 9:09 am    Post subject: Re: E-Bus Fuse Size Reply with quote

Quote:
What was the failure that took down his main bus?

Bob, thanks for your reply.
Sorry that I did not explain the failure well. It was not the main power bus that lost power. It was the E-Bus. The E-bus was wired per AeroElectric diagrams with two power inputs, one from the main bus and one from the battery. Both inputs had 15 amp fuses. The fuses blew because of builder error: too heavy of a load.
When two fuses are in series, what should the fuse ampacity ratio be to be sure that only the smaller fuse blows and not both? 2 to 1, or 5 to 1, or 10 to 1, or what?


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 5:53 pm    Post subject: E-Bus Fuse Size Reply with quote

At 12:09 PM 11/1/2018, you wrote:
Quote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>


> What was the failure that took down his main bus?

Bob, thanks for your reply.
Sorry that I did not explain the failure well. It was not the main power bus that lost power. It was the E-Bus. The E-bus was wired per AeroElectric diagrams with two power inputs, one from the main bus and one from the battery. Both inputs had 15 amp fuses. The fuses blew because of builder error: too heavy of a load.
When two fuses are in series, what should the fuse ampacity ratio be to be sure that only the smaller fuse blows and not both? 2 to 1, or 5 to 1, or 10 to 1, or what?

--------
Joe Gores

Joe, the complete answer will take a bit . . . but
I'll get to it. In the mean time, I've been massaging
the history of the e-bus. It is clear that the
spirit, design goals and intent for e-bus configuration
have evolved several generations over the past 30 years.

I'm considering an update to the idea that removes
all risks for not having considered the pesky details
of fuse physics. Let's graduate the e-bus up
to the same design philosophy as bus structures
in most other aircraft.

http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z36P1.pdf

The design cited above would support all practical
e-bus loads from a LongEz to any heavy-hauler in the
OBAM aviation world. While beefier than the Long-Ez
needs, weight penalty is small and besides, its
all in the nose where the canard pushers need
the ballast anyhow.

The bus is still crew controlled for crash safety
and protected by a current limiter that meets the
spirit and intent of protection for bus feeders
while being totally immune to nuisance tripping
by the opening of any subordinate protection.

Next pass through the z-figures will show this
configuration.

Comments welcome . . .


Bob . . .


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 5:55 pm    Post subject: E-Bus Fuse Size Reply with quote

If two fuses are really in series I would think the smaller one would almost always blow first and then the second wouldn't have power on it any more. In this incident, the fuses were really in parallel and he actively switched from the main feed to the alt feed. Since the load was still higher than 15 amps the second one blew as well. Had he turned some things off before switching he probably would have been just fine. A realization he has come to, btw. Along with the realization that he really needs to decipher the wiring and re-assign devices to the appropriate buss.
--Rick

On 11/1/2018 1:09 PM, user9253 wrote:

Quote:
Quote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> (fransew(at)gmail.com)
Quote:
What was the failure that took down his main bus?

Bob, thanks for your reply.
Sorry that I did not explain the failure well. It was not the main power bus that lost power. It was the E-Bus. The E-bus was wired per AeroElectric diagrams with two power inputs, one from the main bus and one from the battery. Both inputs had 15 amp fuses. The fuses blew because of builder error: too heavy of a load.
When two fuses are in series, what should the fuse ampacity ratio be to be sure that only the smaller fuse blows and not both? 2 to 1, or 5 to 1, or 10 to 1, or what?

--------
Joe Gores


Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=484227#484227



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user9253



Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1311
Location: Riley TWP Michigan

PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 7:11 pm    Post subject: Re: E-Bus Fuse Size Reply with quote

What I meant by being in series are the input fuse to the E-bus and one of the E-Bus loads. My concern is what will happen in case a load circuit shorts to ground. For a fraction of a second, the current arcing across a fuse will exceed the fuse value. That high arcing current could be enough to blow an upstream fuse, even if that upstream fuse has a higher current rating. Ever notice that circuit breakers in a home service entrance panel are labeled "10K Amps" even though the breaker size is 15 or 20 amps? The reason is that when the circuit breaker trips with a dead short, the current arcing across the opening contacts is only limited by the power company's ability to provide it. Thus the circuit breaker is capable of withstanding very high arcing current up to 10K amps for a fraction of a second without blowing itself apart.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 7:24 pm    Post subject: E-Bus Fuse Size Reply with quote

At 12:09 PM 11/1/2018, you wrote:
Quote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>


> What was the failure that took down his main bus?

Bob, thanks for your reply.
Sorry that I did not explain the failure well. It was not the main power bus that lost power. It was the E-Bus. The E-bus was wired per AeroElectric diagrams with two power inputs, one from the main bus and one from the battery. Both inputs had 15 amp fuses.

The normal feed path normally doesn't
have circuit protection. The e-bus and
main bus should be located adjacent to
each other and tied together through
the back-feed prevention diode with
SHORT leads as shown in Z-13/8. Loss
of bus due loss of feeder should never have
occurred.

The only time we need protection in the
alternate path is when the alternate feed
path control is a panel mounted switch.

Wire in the alternate feed path is relatively
small but protected with fuse that's pretty
stiff compared to the RUNNING loads on
the bus. I've shown 15A in most of the
drawings but upsized to 30A in Z02.

For the incident in question, any weakness
in the feeder protection should have been
rooted out with flight testing . . . an
activity that is MANDATED for one-off
mods in TC aircraft.

When you have an alternate feed path
relay, that path becomes a crew-controlled
inter-bus feeder. With the relay located
at the battery the feeder can be made cold
for crash safety, then we can upsize both
the feeder and it's protection.


Quote:
The fuses blew because of builder error: too heavy of a load.
When two fuses are in series, what should the fuse ampacity ratio be to be sure that only the smaller fuse blows and not both? 2 to 1, or 5 to 1, or 10 to 1, or what?

It's a bit more complicated than that. Fuses,
indeed ALL thermally actuated protective
devices, have an actuation time constant that
varies inversely as the square of current.

This is a rough figure of merit that lets
you compare fuses of the same 'rating' but
of different design philosophy. For example,
a 5A "slow blow' fuse has a higher fusing
constant than its 'fast blow' cousin of the
same 5A rating.

As a general rule we don't operate thermal
devices at more than 75% of their rating
so that pre-heating of the thermal element
is minimized. A thermal device may stay
closed at 80% of rating but since it's already
warmed up, response interval to a step rise
in current is much faster.

In the case of a fuse protected feeder to
an e-bus, normal e-bus loads WILL induce
some heating in the feeder protection thus
pushing the fusing response down the curve.
As I suggested earlier, operating with a
bus feeder fuse 2x the normal running loads
is probably sufficient but protecting with
an extra robust (3x) or LONG time constant
device (like a current limiter) is certainly
an option.

The short answer to your question is:
The ability of upstream protection
to hold against a downstream fault cleared
by lighter protection is a function of
fusing-time depression induced by pre-heating
due to normal running loads. You can
size by rules of thumb but VERIFY with
operational testing.

It was a failure to operationally test combined
with poorly thought out modifications to
recommended architecture that brought
down a nearly new LA4 and got some people
hurt.

See:

http://www.aeroelectric.com/Reference_Docs/Accidents/N811HB/02_N11HB_Configuration.wmv

http://www.aeroelectric.com/Reference_Docs/Accidents/N811HB/01_Fuse%20vs%20Breaker.wmv





Bob . . .


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:33 am    Post subject: E-Bus Fuse Size Reply with quote

Joe,
 . . . didn't you mean "parallel" instead of series. . . ??

On Wed, Oct 31, 2018 at 5:40 PM user9253 <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

Quote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)>

A pilot recently experienced an instrument panel blackout at night.  When he turned on the E-Bus switch, the panel briefly came back on, but soon went black again. Luckily the weather was good and he landed safely.  You can read about it here.
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=165520
The E-Bus was protected by 15 amp fuses.  Evidently the second and third owners of the aircraft connected more loads to the E-Ebus, eventually overloading it.
If two fuses are connected in series, even if one is bigger, either one or both could blow in case of hard ground fault.
 Should the E-Bus have main fuses?
If so, then how much larger should the main fuse be than a branch circuit fuse?

--------
Joe Gores




Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=484131#484131






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PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 8:16 am    Post subject: E-Bus Fuse Size Reply with quote

At 10:12 PM 11/1/2018, you wrote:
Quote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>

What I meant by being in series are the input fuse to the E-bus and one of the E-Bus loads. My concern is what will happen in case a load circuit shorts to ground. For a fraction of a second, the current arcing across a fuse will exceed the fuse value. That high arcing current could be enough to blow an upstream fuse, even if that upstream fuse has a higher current rating. Ever notice that circuit breakers in a home service entrance panel are labeled "10K Amps" even though the breaker size is 15 or 20 amps? The reason is that when the circuit breaker trips with a dead short, the current arcing across the opening contacts is only limited by the power company's ability to provide it. Thus the circuit breaker is capable of withstanding very high arcing current up to 10K amps for a fraction of a second without blowing itself apart.

That's not a concern.

Consider the ac power distribution in your house.

A hand-held appliance may have some small protective
device inside it . . . then you move up the chain to
a breaker in your entry box. There may be a mains
breaker upstream in the same box. There are probably
fuses in the transformer behind your house. The
neighborhood distribution system has yet more upstream
fuses. From there on up the chain, fuses are generally
replaced with circuit breakers all the way back to
the power plant.

Any one of those protective devices can be faulted
without opening the upstream protection . . .
IN SPITE of whatever pre-heating may be present
due to other running loads sharing the same
feeder.

You can be sure that the I(squared)t fusing
constant for every device is much greater than
any downstream device, much less than any upstream
device.

The protection architecture behaves gracefully
irrespective of the system's source impedance . . .
which sets the maximum, instantaneous fault
current.

The thing that made our fuse choices more critical
was the fact some devices were fed by upstream
devices of the same class . . . i.e. plastic
automotive fuses. This is not inherently a bad
thing but it does take some careful design
combined with verification testing.

I slipped up in not evolving the protection
philosophy along with step with expanded design
goals for the e-bus. This placed the uninformed
builder at risk for the 'Dark E-bus Syndrome'.

Going foreward with Z36 should eliminate that
risk.



Bob . . .


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 9:18 am    Post subject: Re: E-Bus Fuse Size Reply with quote

Quote:
Joe, . . . didn't you mean "parallel" instead of series. . . ??

No, I meant series. There is a fuse protecting the E-Bus and there are individual loads on the E-Bus each protected by a fuse. The fuse for the whole E-bus and a load fuse are in series. The fuse protecting the whole E-Bus needs to be chosen so that a hard short to ground on an individual load does not blow both the load fuse and the main E-Bus fuse. Bob has addressed this issue with his proposed Z-36 using a MANL30 protecting a heavy duty E-Bus. Builders keep adding more and more loads to an E-bus that was originally designed for minimum loads.
A person I know was working on an apartment kitchen range outlet. He stuck a screwdriver in where it should not have been and tripped not only the circuit breaker for the range, but also the main breaker for the whole building. He had to get the apartment manager to unlock the utility room and reset the building main breaker.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 9:51 am    Post subject: E-Bus Fuse Size Reply with quote

Quote:
A person I know was working on an apartment kitchen range outlet. He stuck a screwdriver in where it should not have been and tripped not only the circuit breaker for the range, but also the main breaker for the whole building. He had to get the apartment manager to unlock the utility room and reset the building main breaker.

Defective or mis-applied breaker . . . it's
a fundamental design REQUIREMENT to prevent fault
effects from propagating outward or upward
in a complex system.


Bob . . .


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 12:12 pm    Post subject: E-Bus Fuse Size Reply with quote

. . . you are certainly right; I didn't consider that you were talking about "branches".
My email gets staged with the earlier first and I did not see your follow-up until I had already stepped on my xxx with a reply. "Must remember to read the entire thread. . .🙄 "

On Fri, Nov 2, 2018 at 10:25 AM user9253 <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

Quote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)>


> Joe,  . . . didn't you mean "parallel" instead of series. . . ??

No, I meant series.  There is a fuse protecting the E-Bus and there are individual loads on the E-Bus each protected by a fuse.  The fuse for the whole E-bus and a load fuse are in series.  The fuse protecting the whole E-Bus needs to be chosen so that a hard short to ground on an individual load does not blow both the load fuse and the main E-Bus fuse.  Bob has addressed this issue with his proposed Z-36 using a MANL30 protecting a heavy duty E-Bus.  Builders keep adding more and more loads to an E-bus that was originally designed for minimum loads.
  A person I know was working on an apartment kitchen range outlet.  He stuck a screwdriver in where it should not have been and tripped not only the circuit breaker for the range, but also the main breaker for the whole building.  He had to get the apartment manager to unlock the utility room and reset the building main breaker.

--------
Joe Gores




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http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=484248#484248






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