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DPDT Toggle switch for BAT and 2 Alternators?

 
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supik



Joined: 22 Aug 2018
Posts: 2

PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 8:49 am    Post subject: DPDT Toggle switch for BAT and 2 Alternators? Reply with quote

To keep things simple I was thinking about using the Honeywell DPDT on/on/on toggle switch for switching on BAT + Alternator 1 & Alternator 2 (aux alt) at the same time. The design would include one main battery and the IBBS standby bat.

Switch position logic:

1. BAT + ALT 1 & ALT 2
2. BAT
3. OFF

To manually switch of either ALT 1 or ALT 2 I would have to pull either ALT1 or ALT2 field CBs positioned after the main switch. I understand 2 possible design problems:

1. The wire going to the main switch feeding the ALT fields has no protection
2. The switch would be a single point of failure

-any other problems I am missing with this setup?

thanks!
https://www.steinair.com/product/locking-toggle-switch-dpdt-ononon/


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user9253



Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1289
Location: Riley TWP Michigan

PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 9:28 am    Post subject: Re: DPDT Toggle switch for BAT and 2 Alternators? Reply with quote

One overlooked problem is the $72 cost of the switch plus shipping. Smile

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John M Tipton



Joined: 07 Aug 2018
Posts: 3
Location: Devon - England

PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 1:52 pm    Post subject: DPDT Toggle switch for BAT and 2 Alternators? Reply with quote

Plenty on eBay: £10.00 or so

John

Sent from my iPad

----x--O--x----

Quote:
On 23 Aug 2018, at 6:28 pm, user9253 <fransew(at)gmail.com> wrote:



One overlooked problem is the $72 cost of the switch plus shipping. Smile

--------
Joe Gores




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ceengland7(at)gmail.com
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:15 am    Post subject: DPDT Toggle switch for BAT and 2 Alternators? Reply with quote

On Sun, Aug 26, 2018 at 1:51 AM, supik <bionicad(at)hotmail.com (bionicad(at)hotmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "supik" <bionicad(at)hotmail.com (bionicad(at)hotmail.com)>

[quote="nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect"]At 11:49 AM 8/23/2018, you wrote:

> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "supik"
>
>    Unless you've been doing this for a long time, there's
>    significant risk that 'simplifications' move your
>    risk factors in the wrong direction.
>


>    Bob . . .


Bob, that's the reason why I am asking here. I was looking at the Z figures, but haven't found a combo I was looking for:

1 Main bat
1 IBBS backup bat
2 Alternators

.and the option that none of the Alts can be selected ON unless the Bat is ON. With BAT ON, separate selection of Alternators shall be possible.

thanks,

--------
Igor

RV10 in progress




If that's a big deal to you, how about using a double pole single throw master switch. One side supplies the ground path to energize the battery contactor, as shown in the Z drawings. The other side feeds DC power from the main bus to the two alternator control switches. Wit master on, either alt can be selected; with master off, neither can be powered.
Charlie


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user9253



Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1289
Location: Riley TWP Michigan

PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2018 9:21 am    Post subject: Re: DPDT Toggle switch for BAT and 2 Alternators? Reply with quote

The battery should be connected whenever an alternator is operating because the battery stabilizes electrical system voltage. Without the battery, system voltage could vary plus or minus 1 volt or so. That voltage instability might cause the over-voltage protection device to activate.
It is OK to mix and match features from several of the Z wiring diagrams. If you draw your own schematic with the features that you want, post it on this forum for peer review. An easy free program for drawing schematics is ExpressSCH.
https://www.expresspcb.com/free-cad-software/


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 8:30 pm    Post subject: DPDT Toggle switch for BAT and 2 Alternators? Reply with quote

Bob,
The manufacture of Advanced Flight FFIS' recommends the IBBS system
and provides inputs to their systems for tje IBBS. For me it mainly a
brownout battery to keep the two EFIS alive during starting. The EFIS
system is the only source of oil pressure measurements. The re-boot
for the EFIS takes longer than the time I am willing to run the engine
without knowing the oil pressure. I have the z12 system minus the
battery buss and e bus. I noticed that the standby alternator is
connected to the starter contactor via a fusible link that uses a #16
wire as the fuse.The feed to that link is a #10 wire. I thought that
the normal design was to use a fuse link 4 sizes less than the feed.
Is it ok to use #14 wire or is the #16 there to protect the alternator
from putting out enough current to damage the alternator The B&C kit I
bought included a 40 amp anl which also makes me wonder about the #16
fuse link. Thanks in advance for any explanation.
On Mon, Aug 27, 2018 at 4:17 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III
<nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
Quote:

At 06:22 PM 8/26/2018, you wrote:



IBBS is a small Lithium battery.
http://www.tcwtech.com/ibbs_integrated_backup_battery_system_3ah_6ah.html

--------
Joe Gores
Okay, thanks. I just downloaded the patent on the
ibbs (8,189,305) along with 'related patents' citen
on their website. I wonder if the circuitry in their
patent truly represents the product . . . it's
REALLY busy! The patent is pretty long in the
tooth . . . and much simpler approaches
to a similar product are on the market.

Okay, installation instructions do include
YEARLY checks for continued air worthiness.
I presume one would check the chip's battery
at the same time . . . which means the operator
needs to develop his/her own airworthiness
verification protocols.

Igor, what size IBBS are you installing
and have you established your projected loads
and design goals for endurance?


Bob . . .


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user9253



Joined: 28 Mar 2008
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Location: Riley TWP Michigan

PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2018 3:29 am    Post subject: Re: DPDT Toggle switch for BAT and 2 Alternators? Reply with quote

In any circuit it is OK to use a smaller fuse than specified as long as it doesn't nuisance blow. Same is true for a fuselink as long as it doesn't get too hot or drop too much voltage. It should be OK to use a 14AWG fuselink. But why not use 16AWG? You could also use the ANL 40 instead of a fuselink. The purpose of a fuse or fuselink is not to protect the alternator, but to protect the battery and wires. An alternator does not need to be protected because it is self current limiting. It can not put out more current than it is capable of. The connected load determines the current. An alternator will only put out what the load demands.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2018 9:04 am    Post subject: DPDT Toggle switch for BAT and 2 Alternators? Reply with quote

Thanks Joe, I used to know that. I got fooled by the warning in the B&C manual that says the standby alternator must be kept below 30 amps to avoid damage. It is a 40 amp alternator de-rated to 30A.

On Wed, Aug 29, 2018, 04:34 user9253 <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

Quote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)>

In any circuit it is OK to use a smaller fuse than specified as long as it doesn't nuisance blow.  Same is true for a fuselink as long as it doesn't get too hot or drop too much voltage.  It should be OK to use a 14AWG fuselink.  But why not use 16AWG?  You could also use the ANL 40 instead of a fuselink.  The purpose of a fuse or fuselink is not to protect the alternator, but to protect the battery and wires.  An alternator does not need to be protected because it is self current limiting.   It can not put out more current than it is capable of.  The connected load determines the current.  An alternator will only put out what the load demands.

--------
Joe Gores




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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2018 3:02 pm    Post subject: Re: DPDT Toggle switch for BAT and 2 Alternators? Reply with quote

The danger to alternators is over heating when heavily loaded. A blast tube can help.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2018 4:10 pm    Post subject: DPDT Toggle switch for BAT and 2 Alternators? Reply with quote

Thanks. My load analysis has me below 20a at night vfr and also ifr. After some hot starts especially those that take longer than usual I have seen as high as 45a on my primary alt. Have flown this way for over 2 yrs. Do not see any real issues. Was just wondering why Bob picked 16awg instead of 14 on z12.

On Aug 29, 2018 16:09, "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)>

The danger to alternators is over heating when heavily loaded.  A blast tube can help.

--------
Joe Gores




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