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Z-13/8 Failure Question

 
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BMC_Dave



Joined: 04 Jul 2018
Posts: 22

PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 2:00 pm    Post subject: Z-13/8 Failure Question Reply with quote

Been pouring through the forums recently, lots of great info and I've been able to answer most of my own questions so far. I'm curious about a particular failure since I'm designing for a SDS EI/EFI plane, perhaps I don't fully understand how the LR-3 module works.

In Z-13/8 if the battery contactor fails, exceedingly rare and probably with some warning prior to being critical, is there any notification that such a failure has occurred? Any indication the battery has been disconnected from the main ALT?

I'll be switching the SDS system off the main battery bus. So if what I'm thinking is true I won't get any indication I'm running the engine only off battery power until it stops. An unappealing prospect...

Also, looking at the reference figures online are these Z-figures the most recent? I ask because it seems the wiring for the main ALT in Z-13 doesn't include the LR-3 module, I have to look at Z-12 for that. Not hard to modify for the combined module, just wondering if there is a Z-13 version out there that includes this. Thanks!


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 2:17 pm    Post subject: Z-13/8 Failure Question Reply with quote

On Fri, Jul 6, 2018 at 5:01 PM, BMC_Dave <bmcdave85(at)gmail.com (bmcdave85(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "BMC_Dave" <bmcdave85(at)gmail.com (bmcdave85(at)gmail.com)>

Been pouring through the forums recently, lots of great info and I've been able to answer most of my own questions so far. I'm curious about a particular failure since I'm designing for a SDS EI/EFI plane, perhaps I don't fully understand how the LR-3 module works.

In Z-13/8 if the battery contactor fails, exceedingly rare and probably with some warning prior to being critical, is there any notification that such a failure has occurred? Any indication the battery has been disconnected from the main ALT?

I'll be switching the ECU and injectors off the main battery bus. So if what I'm thinking is true I won't get any indication I'm running the engine only off battery power until it stops. An unappealing prospect...

Also, looking at the reference figures online are these Z-figures the most recent? I ask because it seems the wiring for the main ALT in Z-13 doesn't include the LR-3 module, I have to look at Z-12 for that. Not hard to modify for the combined module, just wondering if there is a Z-13 version out there that includes this. Thanks!


z-13 is 'on a budget'. the Ford regulator is tens of dollars instead of hundreds of dollars. Smile  If you're going to use the LR-3, then just draw it and its accessories in place of the Ford regulator. If you're keeping the Ford regulator, just add an inexpensive low voltage detector/indicator to the battery bus. Or, if you have an EFIS and/or engine monitor, it should be able to announce undervoltage due to loss of alternator power (which is the actual concern, right?). 


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BMC_Dave



Joined: 04 Jul 2018
Posts: 22

PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 2:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Z-13/8 Failure Question Reply with quote

ceengland7(at)gmail.com wrote:
z-13 is 'on a budget'. the Ford regulator is tens of dollars instead of hundreds of dollars. Smile  If you're going to use the LR-3, then just draw it and its accessories in place of the Ford regulator. If you're keeping the Ford regulator, just add an inexpensive low voltage detector/indicator to the battery bus. Or, if you have an EFIS and/or engine monitor, it should be able to announce undervoltage due to loss of alternator power (which is the actual concern, right?). 


Ah, I get the schematic now. Though the B&C website "All Electric On A Budget" includes the LR-3... and a 60A main ALT.

Yeah I'll have dual EFISs but they'll be off the e-buss, well one will at least, and would be seeing the ALT voltage from there with the BAT contact open. I assume from their perspective nothing would change when the BAT is disconnected, though I'm likely misunderstanding.

ETA: Sorry, just to clarify the alternator failing isn't what I'm asking. I'm asking about a battery contact failure and whether I'd have any indication that battery, which is critical to keep the fan up front spinning, is being depleted. Looking at the LR-3 it seems to be sensing buss voltage on terminal 5/3, so I would think you could just move this to the battery bus and it would have the desired effect. This would now be independent of the battery contactor. I'm just starting to get into all this so I could just be plane wrong Smile


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user9253



Joined: 28 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Z-13/8 Failure Question Reply with quote

Many, if not most, alternators will keep working if the battery is disconnected. Electrical loads draw their current from the source with the highest voltage. Since the alternator puts out a higher voltage than the battery does, everything including the alternator field is powered by the alternator. If the battery is disconnected, then its stabilizing affect is lost. The voltage from the alternator might vary about plus or minus a volt. A symptom of battery contactor failure could be unstable voltage. If the E-Bus switch is normally turned on, then another symptom of contactor failure is a drop in voltage between 0.5 and 1 volt (across the diode).
If the E-Bus is still connected to the battery, then its voltage might remain stable. But the voltage on the main power bus could be unstable with the battery disconnected.
Battery contactors do not fail very often.


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BMC_Dave



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Z-13/8 Failure Question Reply with quote

user9253 wrote:
Many, if not most, alternators will keep working if the battery is disconnected. Electrical loads draw their current from the source with the highest voltage. Since the alternator puts out a higher voltage than the battery does, everything including the alternator field is powered by the alternator. If the battery is disconnected, then its stabilizing affect is lost. The voltage from the alternator might vary about plus or minus a volt. A symptom of battery contactor failure could be unstable voltage. If the E-Bus switch is normally turned on, then another symptom of contactor failure is a drop in voltage between 0.5 and 1 volt (across the diode).
If the E-Bus is still connected to the battery, then its voltage might remain stable. But the voltage on the main power bus could be unstable with the battery disconnected.
Battery contactors do not fail very often.


This is all consistent with my assumptions. So indeed it is possible to have the battery contactor fail, have nothing on the e-bus or main bus side notice, and keep chugging along until your engine suddenly quits (because your entire ignition and fuel delivery system is dependent on the battery bus). Is this correct?


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:58 pm    Post subject: Z-13/8 Failure Question Reply with quote

On 7/6/2018 6:35 PM, BMC_Dave wrote:
Quote:

user9253 wrote:
> Many, if not most, alternators will keep working if the battery is disconnected. Electrical loads draw their current from the source with the highest voltage. Since the alternator puts out a higher voltage than the battery does, everything including the alternator field is powered by the alternator. If the battery is disconnected, then its stabilizing affect is lost. The voltage from the alternator might vary about plus or minus a volt. A symptom of battery contactor failure could be unstable voltage. If the E-Bus switch is normally turned on, then another symptom of contactor failure is a drop in voltage between 0.5 and 1 volt (across the diode).
> If the E-Bus is still connected to the battery, then its voltage might remain stable. But the voltage on the main power bus could be unstable with the battery disconnected.
> Battery contactors do not fail very often.

This is all consistent with my assumptions. So indeed it is possible to have the battery contactor fail, have nothing on the e-buss or main buss side notice, and keep chugging along until your engine suddenly quits (because your entire ignition and fuel delivery system is dependent on the battery buss). Is this correct?
If you don't have anything on the battery bus that will detect loss of

alternator power, then just add low voltage detection to the battery
bus. Having said that, I believe that Ross has said SDS' new system,
still in development, will have low voltage annunciation and auto
switching to a backup battery. Have you asked about that feature?

Charlie

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user9253



Joined: 28 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 4:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Z-13/8 Failure Question Reply with quote

Not necessarily. Since you have two EFISs, monitor the E-Bus voltage with one and the main bus with the other. If the voltage drops by even 1/2 volt, then land. Lithium batteries are different than lead acid. Lithium batteries maintain their voltage until almost dead. If the engine is electrically dependent, then any abnormal voltage should be reason to land and troubleshoot on the ground.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 4:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Z-13/8 Failure Question Reply with quote

If you want to back up the battery contactor, the attached drawing is one way.
The small relay is disabled during engine cranking to prevent overloading its contacts.
I am not necessarily recommending this circuit, just offering it as an option.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 4:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Z-13/8 Failure Question Reply with quote

My 6-year-old Odyssey PC680 failed open while flying. The result was the same as if the battery contactor failed.

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BMC_Dave



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 4:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Z-13/8 Failure Question Reply with quote

Definitely not looking to add another contactor. I suppose you could set up the efis to monitor engine bus, but why not just hook the LR-3 to it instead? Then instead of just telling us the alternator is working it also tells us if it's charging the battery. Reduced part counts is always nice too...

That would render any low voltage warnings from SDS unnecessary.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 4:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Z-13/8 Failure Question Reply with quote

There was a recent discussion on VansAirforce about electrical architecture for EFI with lots of opinions and suggestions.
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=151435


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 4:50 pm    Post subject: Z-13/8 Failure Question Reply with quote

My 6-year-old Odyssey failed open while flying.  The result was the same as if the battery contactor failed.

--------
Joe Gores

              I believe that it would not be quite the same thing.  If you have an electrically dependent engine, in your case, the alternator power would back feed through the contactor to the battery bus and keep the engine running as long as you didn’t try to draw more current than the alternator can supply.

Roger


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 5:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Z-13/8 Failure Question Reply with quote

Right you are Roger. Luckily my Rotax 912ULS engine has its own independent ignition system and engine driven fuel pump.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 5:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Z-13/8 Failure Question Reply with quote

user9253 wrote:
There was a recent discussion on VansAirforce about electrical architecture for EFI with lots of opinions and suggestions.
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=151435


I appreciate that. I am still interested in the answer to my question about this specific architecture though.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 4:07 am    Post subject: Z-13/8 Failure Question Reply with quote

For my EFI with dual alternators configured similar to Z-14, I have both
alternators connected to the battery side of the contactors. Seemed
reasonable to me since each of my alts are disconnected when their
respective alternator switch is turned off. The main one via an
overvoltage disconnect contactor and the second smaller one via a 40 amp
relay. ie. they will both charge even if the "battery" contactor is off.

My EIS monitors the left battery buss and the EIS is itself powered by
the main distribution buss so immediate notification occurs if an alt
drops offline. If the battery contactor opens I do lose the EIS and the
warnings but then the dead EIS is the warning. The EIS is not essential
for me. Even if the main alternator stopped charging or the main battery
failed on the same flight I can run on the second alternator and battery
indefinitely albeit without the EIS. I have hand held nav and comm
backups and I have one switched cig lighter outlet powered from the
other battery buss. It can power handheld devices or I can plug in a $4.
voltmeter that is sold for monitoring automotive electrical systems. Now
that I no longer have any vacuum powered instruments I would have to
look at adding a second power source for the EIS and avionics if I still
did any IFR flying.

As others have said, you definitely need something that immediately
notifies you that the battery buss voltage is below normal charging
voltage. Mine trigger if the alternator is not maintaining it at greater
than 13.5 volts.

Ken

On 06/07/2018 6:01 PM, BMC_Dave wrote:
Quote:


Been pouring through the forums recently, lots of great info and I've been able to answer most of my own questions so far. I'm curious about a particular failure since I'm designing for a SDS EI/EFI plane, perhaps I don't fully understand how the LR-3 module works.

In Z-13/8 if the battery contactor fails, exceedingly rare and probably with some warning prior to being critical, is there any notification that such a failure has occurred? Any indication the battery has been disconnected from the main ALT?

I'll be switching the ECU and injectors off the main battery bus. So if what I'm thinking is true I won't get any indication I'm running the engine only off battery power until it stops. An unappealing prospect...

Also, looking at the reference figures online are these Z-figures the most recent? I ask because it seems the wiring for the main ALT in Z-13 doesn't include the LR-3 module, I have to look at Z-12 for that. Not hard to modify for the combined module, just wondering if there is a Z-13 version out there that includes this. Thanks!


Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=481447#481447

.



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PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 7:54 am    Post subject: Z-13/8 Failure Question Reply with quote

At 05:01 PM 7/6/2018, you wrote:
Quote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "BMC_Dave" <bmcdave85(at)gmail.com>

Been pouring through the forums recently, lots of great info and I've been able to answer most of my own questions so far. I'm curious about a particular failure since I'm designing for a SDS EI/EFI plane, perhaps I don't fully understand how the LR-3 module works.

The LR3C alternator controller is an adjustable
linear regulator combined with crowbar over voltage
protection and low voltage warning.


Quote:
In Z-13/8 if the battery contactor fails, exceedingly rare and probably with some warning prior to being critical, is there any notification that such a failure has occurred? Any indication the battery has been disconnected from the main ALT?

No. You probably won't be aware of a battery contactor
failure until you're on the ground and just happen
to shut alternator(s) down first . . . or attempt
a preflight for your next sortie.


Quote:
I'll be switching the ECU and injectors off the main battery bus. So if what I'm thinking is true I won't get any indication I'm running the engine only off battery power until it stops. An unappealing prospect...

Add lv warning to the battery bus . . .

https://goo.gl/sNBCja

You would hook such a gizmo to the downstream
side of one of the engine accessory switches
such that the lv warn gets powered down with
the engine.

Quote:
Also, looking at the reference figures online are these Z-figures the most recent? I ask because it seems the wiring for the main ALT in Z-13 doesn't include the LR-3 module, I have to look at Z-12 for that. Not hard to modify for the combined module, just wondering if there is a Z-13 version out there that includes this. Thanks!

The Z figures are ARCHITECTURE drawings, not wire books
nor are they intended to drive decisions for selection of specific
components. One might use any combination of ov/lv/regulator
in lieu of the LR3 and vise-versa.

Battery contactor failure in flight is exceedingly rare.
They nearly always annunciate impending failure during
an engine start. But be attentive to the FIRST signs
of fussiness . . . I had a renter on 1K1 that would
go rap on his Cherokee battery contactor with the handle
of a screwdriver with the master switch ON . . . seems
that this shade tree mechanic's move gave him better
starts. We moved off the airport before the contactor
went TU so I don't know how long the work-around serviced
his intentions to go flying.

Contactors I've replaced had been in service years . . .
sometimes decades. Teardown inspections showed that
the devices were pretty beat up. Whisky barrel contactors
are best mounted cap down . . . with a small vent/drain
hole added to the hi-point of the cap.

Works good . . . lasts a long time . . .



Bob . . .


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BMC_Dave



Joined: 04 Jul 2018
Posts: 22

PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 8:29 am    Post subject: Re: Z-13/8 Failure Question Reply with quote

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect wrote:
At 05:01 PM 7/6/2018, you wrote:
Quote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "BMC_Dave" <bmcdave85>

Been pouring through the forums recently, lots of great info and I've been able to answer most of my own questions so far. I'm curious about a particular failure since I'm designing for a SDS EI/EFI plane, perhaps I don't fully understand how the LR-3 module works.

The LR3C alternator controller is an adjustable
linear regulator combined with crowbar over voltage
protection and low voltage warning.


Quote:
In Z-13/8 if the battery contactor fails, exceedingly rare and probably with some warning prior to being critical, is there any notification that such a failure has occurred? Any indication the battery has been disconnected from the main ALT?

No. You probably won't be aware of a battery contactor
failure until you're on the ground and just happen
to shut alternator(s) down first . . . or attempt
a preflight for your next sortie.


Quote:
I'll be switching the ECU and injectors off the main battery bus. So if what I'm thinking is true I won't get any indication I'm running the engine only off battery power until it stops. An unappealing prospect...

Add lv warning to the battery bus . . .

https://goo.gl/sNBCja

You would hook such a gizmo to the downstream
side of one of the engine accessory switches
such that the lv warn gets powered down with
the engine.

Quote:
Also, looking at the reference figures online are these Z-figures the most recent? I ask because it seems the wiring for the main ALT in Z-13 doesn't include the LR-3 module, I have to look at Z-12 for that. Not hard to modify for the combined module, just wondering if there is a Z-13 version out there that includes this. Thanks!

The Z figures are ARCHITECTURE drawings, not wire books
nor are they intended to drive decisions for selection of specific
components. One might use any combination of ov/lv/regulator
in lieu of the LR3 and vise-versa.

Battery contactor failure in flight is exceedingly rare.
They nearly always annunciate impending failure during
an engine start. But be attentive to the FIRST signs
of fussiness . . . I had a renter on 1K1 that would
go rap on his Cherokee battery contactor with the handle
of a screwdriver with the master switch ON . . . seems
that this shade tree mechanic's move gave him better
starts. We moved off the airport before the contactor
went TU so I don't know how long the work-around serviced
his intentions to go flying.

Contactors I've replaced had been in service years . . .
sometimes decades. Teardown inspections showed that
the devices were pretty beat up. Whisky barrel contactors
are best mounted cap down . . . with a small vent/drain
hole added to the hi-point of the cap.

Works good . . . lasts a long time . . .



Bob . . .


Awesome, that about covers my concerns. Thanks!


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