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Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials
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jclarkmail(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 8:48 am Post subject: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials

Thanks for the detailed response Michael.



No, I don't have a Subie on order. I am flying behind a Lycoming now and my current project is a Lycoming (clone).



I simply didn't have the "history" you referenced and came across the message and wondered what motivated the style of comment. 



James

On 7/17/06, RV Builder (Michael Sausen) <rvbuilder(at)sausen.net (rvbuilder(at)sausen.net)> wrote: 	  Quote: 	
		                

  Oh boy do I have some history.  Jan booted me from his list for asking him to validate his ever changing HP numbers on his H6 for the -10.  One of his cheerleaders tried to publicly flog me and I responded with a very straightforward set of comments.  Jan then said he wouldn't allow one of his friends to be publically humiliated but he apparently had no problem with a potential customer being so.  And no, he will never give dyno numbers.  He doesn't feel it is necessary.  As far as non-delivery, do a search of websites of people that have his engines and you will find plenty of instances where he did not meet promised delivery dates.  One of his best supporters even received the supercharger well after the engine delivery (which was also late) pushing things out a year.  Oh and the "complete" firewall forward package apparently wasn't so complete either.  I'm sure Jan knows who this is and he hopefully won't threaten him to take down the site.  

   

  My comment below is no surprise to anyone who has done any type of due diligence on his offerings.  I made my decision to go with a Lycoming after spending a couple months talking to a dozen people flying Eggs engine and hanging around on his list.  Anytime someone spoke up on that list they were slammed back down.  I was contacted by several people off list to keep asking the hard questions because they had already ordered and were afraid they would be denied service for questioning the status quo.  

   

  I'm not anti-Eggenfeller as I still feel he has the best chance of producing an alternative engine package but it's time for him to grow up his business and start PROVING the capabilities he touts.  I am also not saying that his engine does not meet the performance he claims, after all no one has dyno numbers on any of his engines so there is no way to tell.  I will say that the recent RVator article helps to shed some light on things.  I have the full history of the email conversations in question and anyone who wants to contact me off list for a copy is welcome to do so.  

   

  James, I'm guessing you already ordered one of his engines?  If not, I strongly suggest you do some serious background research.  In reality the only thing you get from his package is an alternative engine package that can keep MP to altitude.  The cost isn't much different, the fuel flows won't be much different, and the performance won't be much different from a Lycoming.  What will be different is the resale value, expect it to be much less.   

   

  Oh ya, this dog hunts just fine.

  

   

Michael Sausen  

RV-10 #352 Working on Fuselage  

Do Not Archive  

 Recent RV-10 Build Activity  

  



From:  owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com  (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of James Clark

 Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 8:28 AM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)

 Subject: Re: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials  

  

   

Micheal,

 

 It seems from your post that you have an issue of some sort with Jan.

 

 For those that are considering his product, this post comes across as not being fair without some facts. It is as if you are accusing him of non-delivery. If that is the case why not just say what the facts are? 

 

 I am sure he is now motivated to give you the "dyno numbers" you request.

 

 James

 .. no dog in this hunt     

On 7/17/06, RV Builder (Michael Sausen) <rvbuilder(at)sausen.net (rvbuilder(at)sausen.net)> wrote:        

Wow, you are actually making engine delivery dates for once.  I'm shocked!  Oh wait, it says delivery in December, so probably not huh.  Now how about some dyno numbers?  

     

Michael Sausen  

RV-10 #352 Working on Fuselage  

Do Not Archive  

 Recent RV-10 Build Activity  

      

From:  owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com  (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of EAAINC(at)aol.com (EAAINC(at)aol.com)

 Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 7:00 AM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com) 

 Subject: Re: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials  

  

  

    

     

I have been asked to announce that Eggenfellner Does have turbocharged 220HP RV-10 engines and that they will be on sale at Oshkosh this year.  Deliveries are available for December with 50% deposits.  

    

   

    

Jan  

  

  

  

  

  



  

 -- 

 This is an alternate email. Please continue to email me at james(at)nextupventures.com  (james(at)nextupventures.com) .  



  

    

	


-- 

This is an alternate email. Please continue to email me at james(at)nextupventures.com (james(at)nextupventures.com) .

Tdawson(at)avidyne.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 8:51 am Post subject: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials

If you have a Subaru engine, does that make your airplane all-wheel drive?  : )  

   

I’m feeling a little punchy today . . . must be that Red Bull I had for breakfast!  

   

TDT  

Do not archive   

         

  

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder (Michael Sausen)

 Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 12:24 PM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials  

  

   

  Dan, I’m not tearing down anyone.  As you will see from all of my posts I think Jan does a good job.  I’m just stating facts.  The resale thing is pretty much a given.  You will have a smaller market reselling anything that is a one off and it is unlikely you will get the same value as what is considered standard.    I do find it interesting that below you say the performance numbers are right on for a Lycoming but then in the same paragraph you say that there are no performance numbers.  Hmmmm.  I whole heartedly expect someone to defend a purchase they made so I’m glad you and others are defending the package.  I went with a package that defends itself based on hundreds of thousands of running hours in aircraft.  Was it a good choice maybe, I would probably consider it a safe choice more than anything.  I’m not expecting any major unknowns which is what allows me to sleep well at night (pending any $*^&$#! AD’s).  For me the Egg Subie still had too many unknowns, not a bad thing if you really are behind experimenting, just not something I felt comfortable with when flying my family around.  

   

  Anyway, I am sincerely glad that 15 RV-10 builders have ordered his package and I anxiously await results and data from the first flying conversions.  This is the only way to get an alternative engine out there and I salute those willing to be true experimenters.  But in the mean time the only thing we can go by are the facts.  But get one thing straight, I am not slamming Jan as I don’t know the guy, I am not slamming his products as I do not own anything he has ever built.  I am questioning his business practices and his performance numbers.  You are right on the money with the other vendors having delivery problems.  The difference is they have much more product out there and their problems are the exception and not the rule.  

     

Michael Sausen  

RV-10 #352 Working on Fuselage  

Do Not Archive  

Recent RV-10 Build Activity  

      

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lloyd, Daniel R.

 Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 10:26 AM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials  

  

  

   

Here we go again....  

In all fairness to delivery dates, I can name every major vendor out there that has slipped dates. I have paid in full for my Chelton with harness and had the dates slipped on my harness from Direct to Avionics, and the last time I called they had not even finalized the package. Another one comes to mind is Tru-trak, I have had my servos on order before May, and have been told several times they would be shipped in the next few days, it is now July and I still do not have them. Does this make me mad? No, just disappointed, but I planned for the delays and in such I will get them and do not have to stress about it, and it will be the same with the engine.   

   

These small production numbers do not lend themselves well to predictable delivery times, and as such, we need to be tolerant of them and slips. One thing Jan has the ability to do well is communicate to his customers. He is forth coming with changes and allows us to be part of it. He has kept us informed of the steps along the way. It is an experimental engine, that is currently being designed, so yes, there will be delays. But all you have to do is call and he will give you his best guess, and that is what it is a guess at that time because unforeseen things come up, the PSRU change comes to mind. But these delays end up in a better product.   

     

As for the performance figures, they are right on with a Lycoming, and since this is being sold as a Lycoming replacement, I would say that it is living right up to expectations. Yes, the cost is the same in the beginning, but during a re-build, you will get a brand new engine, for less than it would cost to just do a top overhaul on a Lycoming.  

    

As for the RV10 the package is too new to tell on performance numbers, but once I am flying with it, I will have a FWF solution including a C/S speed prop, that in total costs significantly less than a New Lycoming FWF solution.   

    

   

    

I would like to know where you got your information on the resale numbers, because I am only aware of one sale with an E-Subaru, and that was for the same amount a standard would sell for. I am not aware on any other sales, but they could be out there.  

    

   

    

The end result is this, in the alternative engine market Jan is the leader for RV's. The other two have fallen flat on their face or have gone out of business. I have been following this engine package for years, and like what I see, and the progress that has been made. More importantly, I trust Jan and his ability to deliver on the engine, and if there are issues I am confident in his ability to fix them. This is the alternative engine market, and something's have to be taken on faith and your trust in the person.   

    

   

    

We all jumped on the RV10 bandwagon, even before performance numbers were truly known, and this was because we trust in Vans Aircraft and their commitment to deliver a good product. Many of us ordered before the kits had even begun being designed, but that was because we trusted they would make it and make it right, and the delivery times might have slipped, even as large as Vans is, they did slip on time in the early kits. I imagine back in the early 80's, people were having the same discussions about Van's and their ability to deliver, we just did not have the internet to pontificate about it.  

    

   

    

So in all reality, [b]Mike get over it[/b], the engine is not for you, we all know it is not for you, but you do not have to tear down another persons business, to make yourself feel better about your decision. All of the vendors have suffered in delivery times, just get over it.  

    

   

    

Dan Lloyd  

    

40269 (N289DT)  

    

Fuselage  

    

   

    

   

      

  

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder (Michael Sausen)

 Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 10:17 AM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials  

  Oh boy do I have some history.  Jan booted me from his list for asking him to validate his ever changing HP numbers on his H6 for the -10.  One of his cheerleaders tried to publicly flog me and I responded with a very straightforward set of comments.  Jan then said he wouldn’t allow one of his friends to be publically humiliated but he apparently had no problem with a potential customer being so.  And no, he will never give dyno numbers.  He doesn’t feel it is necessary.  As far as non-delivery, do a search of websites of people that have his engines and you will find plenty of instances where he did not meet promised delivery dates.  One of his best supporters even received the supercharger well after the engine delivery (which was also late) pushing things out a year.  Oh and the “complete” firewall forward package apparently wasn’t so complete either.  I’m sure Jan knows who this is and he hopefully won’t threaten him to take down the site.  

   

  My comment below is no surprise to anyone who has done any type of due diligence on his offerings.  I made my decision to go with a Lycoming after spending a couple months talking to a dozen people flying Eggs engine and hanging around on his list.  Anytime someone spoke up on that list they were slammed back down.  I was contacted by several people off list to keep asking the hard questions because they had already ordered and were afraid they would be denied service for questioning the status quo.  

   

  I’m not anti-Eggenfeller as I still feel he has the best chance of producing an alternative engine package but it’s time for him to grow up his business and start PROVING the capabilities he touts.  I am also not saying that his engine does not meet the performance he claims, after all no one has dyno numbers on any of his engines so there is no way to tell.  I will say that the recent RVator article helps to shed some light on things.  I have the full history of the email conversations in question and anyone who wants to contact me off list for a copy is welcome to do so.  

   

  James, I’m guessing you already ordered one of his engines?  If not, I strongly suggest you do some serious background research.  In reality the only thing you get from his package is an alternative engine package that can keep MP to altitude.  The cost isn’t much different, the fuel flows won’t be much different, and the performance won’t be much different from a Lycoming.  What will be different is the resale value, expect it to be much less.   

   

  Oh ya, this dog hunts just fine.  

   

Michael Sausen  

RV-10 #352 Working on Fuselage  

Recent RV-10 Build Activity    

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of James Clark

 Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 8:28 AM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials  

  

   

Micheal,

 

 It seems from your post that you have an issue of some sort with Jan.

 

 For those that are considering his product, this post comes across as not being fair without some facts. It is as if you are accusing him of non-delivery. If that is the case why not just say what the facts are? 

 

 I am sure he is now motivated to give you the "dyno numbers" you request.

 

 James

 .. no dog in this hunt     

On 7/17/06, RV Builder (Michael Sausen) <rvbuilder(at)sausen.net (rvbuilder(at)sausen.net)> wrote:        

Wow, you are actually making engine delivery dates for once.  I'm shocked!  Oh wait, it says delivery in December, so probably not huh.  Now how about some dyno numbers?  

     

Michael Sausen  

RV-10 #352 Working on Fuselage  

Recent RV-10 Build Activity  

      

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com  (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of EAAINC(at)aol.com (EAAINC(at)aol.com)

 Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 7:00 AM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)

 Subject: Re: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials  

  

  

    

     

I have been asked to announce that Eggenfellner Does have turbocharged 220HP RV-10 engines and that they will be on sale at Oshkosh this year.  Deliveries are available for December with 50% deposits.  

    

   

    

Jan  

  

  

  

  

  



  

 -- 

 This is an alternate email. Please continue to email me at james(at)nextupventures.com (james(at)nextupventures.com) .

jjessen

Joined: 22 Apr 2006
Posts: 285
Location: OR

Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 8:53 am Post subject: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials

Well......I hesitate because my experience was limited and  long ago, but.....

  

 When I was researching an engine for the -7 that got turned  into a -10, I spent time on the Egg list, lurking.  Finally I, too, asked  questions about performance numbers.  I also asked when questions posed by  others were ever going to get a straight answer, for I had grown increasingly  uncomfortable with the lack thereof.  I got slammed by Jan, publicly  denounced for not having faith in the product.  Etc.  Etc.  "It  just works" is not a quote, but pretty close.  Given that I was researching  an engine that was going into an airplane, not a car, I figured that if I was  going to get that type of response, I'd leave it up to the true believers and  those with enough engineering background to do their own calculations.  I,  too, have been pulling for someone to make it successfully as an alternative,  but not with an attitude like I found on the Egg site.  His is a product  destined for an environment that deserves careful testing and honesty with  customers.  I have a certain amount of faith, shaken by the crank issues,  in current certified engine technology, but Jan got an F in the faith department  with his bludgeoning prose and public scorn for those who ask the correct  questions.  I don't know about delivery issues and other problems, and  those can be expected, but they need to be handled with openness.  We are a  forgiving bunch.  We know the problems that exist for small companies  trying to get a complex product out the door.  I guess if you're intent on  being an Egg customer, then you must be convinced that the engine is what it's  claimed to be by Egg.  In some areas of life, I do not feel I have  enough information and smarts to be an early adopter.  Good luck!  I  hope it all works out, because we do need alternatives.   

  

 John Jessen

   328



   From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lloyd, Daniel  R.

Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 8:26 AM

To:  rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: Oshkosh Subaru Engine  Specials

 

 Here we go again....

 In all fairness to delivery dates, I can name every major  vendor out there that has slipped dates. I have paid in full for my Chelton with  harness and had the dates slipped on my harness from Direct to Avionics, and the  last time I called they had not even finalized the package. Another one comes to  mind is Tru-trak, I have had my servos on order before May, and have been told  several times they would be shipped in the next few days, it is now July and I  still do not have them. Does this make me mad? No, just disappointed,  but I planned for the delays and in such I will get them and do not have to  stress about it, and it will be the same with the engine. 

  

 These small production numbers do not lend themselves well  to predictable delivery times, and as such, we need to be tolerant of them and  slips. One thing Jan has the ability to do well is communicate to his customers.  He is forth coming with changes and allows us to be part of it. He has kept us  informed of the steps along the way. It is an experimental engine, that is  currently being designed, so yes, there will be delays. But all you have to do  is call and he will give you his best guess, and that is what it is a guess at  that time because unforeseen things come up, the PSRU change comes to mind. But  these delays end up in a better product. 

  

 As for the performance figures, they are right on with a Lycoming, and since this is being sold as a Lycoming replacement, I would say that it is living right up to  expectations. Yes, the cost is the same in the beginning, but during a re-build, you will get a brand new engine, for less than it would cost to just do a top overhaul on a Lycoming.

 As for the RV10 the package is too new to  tell on performance numbers, but once I am flying with it, I will have a FWF  solution including a C/S speed prop, that in total costs significantly less than  a New Lycoming FWF solution. 

  

 I would like to know where you got your information on  the resale numbers, because I am only aware of one sale with an E-Subaru, and  that was for the same amount a standard would sell for. I am not aware on any  other sales, but they could be out there.

  

 The end result is this, in the alternative engine  market Jan is the leader for RV's. The other two have fallen flat on their  face or have gone out of business. I have been following this engine package for  years, and like what I see, and the progress that has been made. More  importantly, I trust Jan and his  ability to deliver on the engine, and if there are issues I am confident in his  ability to fix them. This is the alternative engine market, and something's have  to be taken on faith and your trust in the person.  

  

 We all jumped on the RV10 bandwagon, even before  performance numbers were truly known, and this was because we trust in Vans  Aircraft and their commitment to deliver a good product. Many of us ordered  before the kits had even begun being designed, but that was because we trusted  they would make it and make it right, and the delivery times might have slipped,  even as large as Vans is, they did slip on time in the early kits. I imagine  back in the early 80's, people were having the same discussions about Van's and  their ability to deliver, we just did not have the internet to pontificate about  it.

  

 So in all reality, Mike get over it,  the engine is not for you, we all know it is not for you, but you do not have to  tear down another persons business, to make yourself feel better about your  decision. All of the vendors have suffered in delivery times, just get over  it.

  

 Dan Lloyd

 40269  (N289DT)

 Fuselage



  

  

   From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder  (Michael Sausen)

Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 10:17 AM

To:  rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: Oshkosh Subaru Engine  Specials

 

  

   Oh boy do I have some history.  Jan booted me from his list for asking him  to validate his ever changing HP numbers on his H6 for the -10.  One of his  cheerleaders tried to publicly flog me and I responded with a very  straightforward set of comments.  Jan then said he wouldn’t allow one of  his friends to be publically humiliated but he apparently had no problem with a  potential customer being so.  And no, he will never give dyno  numbers.  He doesn’t feel it is necessary.  As far as non-delivery, do  a search of websites of people that have his engines and you will find plenty of  instances where he did not meet promised delivery dates.  One of his best  supporters even received the supercharger well after the engine delivery (which  was also late) pushing things out a year.  Oh and the “complete” firewall  forward package apparently wasn’t so complete either.  I’m sure Jan knows  who this is and he hopefully won’t threaten him to take down the  site. 

  

   My comment below is no surprise to anyone who has done any type of due diligence  on his offerings.  I made my decision to go with a Lycoming after spending  a couple months talking to a dozen people flying Eggs engine and hanging around  on his list.  Anytime someone spoke up on that list they were slammed back  down.  I was contacted by several people off list to keep asking the hard  questions because they had already ordered and were afraid they would be denied  service for questioning the status quo. 

  

   I’m not anti-Eggenfeller as I still feel he has the best chance of producing an  alternative engine package but it’s time for him to grow up his business and  start PROVING the capabilities he touts.  I am also not saying that his  engine does not meet the performance he claims, after all no one has dyno  numbers on any of his engines so there is no way to tell.  I will say that  the recent RVator article helps to shed some light on things.  I have the  full history of the email conversations in question and anyone who wants to  contact me off list for a copy is welcome to do so. 

  

   James, I’m guessing you already ordered one of his engines?  If not, I  strongly suggest you do some serious background research.  In reality the  only thing you get from his package is an alternative engine package that can  keep MP to altitude.  The cost isn’t much different, the fuel flows won’t  be much different, and the performance won’t be much different from a  Lycoming.  What will be different is the resale value, expect it to be much  less.  

  

   Oh ya, this dog hunts just fine. 

  

Michael  Sausen 

RV-10  #352 Working on Fuselage 

Do  Not Archive 

Recent RV-10 Build  Activity  

From:  owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of James  Clark

Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 8:28 AM

To:  rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Oshkosh Subaru Engine  Specials

 

  

Micheal,



It seems from  your post that you have an issue of some sort with Jan.



For those that  are considering his product, this post comes across as not being fair without  some facts. It is as if you are accusing him of non-delivery. If that is the  case why not just say what the facts are? 



I am sure he is now motivated  to give you the "dyno numbers" you request.



James

... no dog in this  hunt   

On 7/17/06, RV Builder (Michael  Sausen) <rvbuilder(at)sausen.net (rvbuilder(at)sausen.net)>  wrote:    

Wow, you are actually making  engine delivery dates for once.  I'm shocked!  Oh wait, it says  delivery in December, so probably not huh.  Now how about some dyno  numbers? 

   

Michael  Sausen 

RV-10 #352 Working on  Fuselage 

Do Not  Archive 

Recent RV-10 Build  Activity

   

From:  owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com  (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of EAAINC(at)aol.com (EAAINC(at)aol.com)

Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 7:00  AM

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)

Subject: Re: RV10-List:  Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials

  

   

I have been asked to announce  that Eggenfellner Does have turbocharged 220HP RV-10 engines and that they will  be on sale at Oshkosh this year.  Deliveries are available for December  with 50% deposits.

  

 

  

Jan





 

-- 

This is an alternate email.  Please continue to email me at james(at)nextupventures.com (james(at)nextupventures.com)  .

rvbuilder(at)sausen.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 9:03 am Post subject: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials

I’ll by the beer and you by the Tequila!  

     

Michael Sausen  

RV-10 #352 Working on Fuselage  

Do Not Archive  

Recent RV-10 Build Activity  

      

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lloyd, Daniel R.

 Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 11:01 AM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials  

  

  

   

See now, every time you post something bad you come back with one of these. Very fair assessment, and should have been included the first time...."GRIN"   

You and I will have to get a beer at Oshkosh and really hash it out!  

Dan  

       

  

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder (Michael Sausen)

 Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 11:24 AM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials  

  No, Jan does deliver his engines, eventually, and currently has the only viable alternative package out there.  He just tends to run things off the cuff from what I’ve seen.  He probably needs to get a good business manager as it seems like he is doing everything there.  Reminds me of another company that has awesome products but no development controls in place and delivery problems.  

   

  You have to keep in mind with his engines they are experimental and do not have any version control.  He makes changes to the design on the fly as he sees they are needed.  The engine he delivers one year are different from the next because he always uses the current model year engine.  This isn’t necessarily a bad thing but it does make it next to impossible to develop any type of fleet history.  

   

  I gave his engine serious consideration.  The decision to go with a Lycoming was based on a couple of things.  

   

1)      No one could give me actual performance numbers for the engine.  All HP was calculated.  

2)      There was enough private feedback for me to be cautious.  

3)      This was new engine package and a new redrive design.  

4)      Jan would not give me a straight answer to any of my questions.  

   

  I hope the package turns out to be a winner on the RV-10.  Right now there are not enough choices!  

     

Michael Sausen  

RV-10 #352 Working on Fuselage  

Do Not Archive  

Recent RV-10 Build Activity  

      

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of David McNeill

 Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 9:29 AM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials  

  

  

     

Sounds like the USA based version of Crossflow?  

   	  Quote: 	
		      

----- Original Message -----   

    

From: RV Builder (Michael Sausen) (rvbuilder(at)sausen.net)   

    

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)   

    

Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 7:16 AM  

    

Subject: RE: RV10-List: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials  

    

   

  

  Oh boy do I have some history.  Jan booted me from his list for asking him to validate his ever changing HP numbers on his H6 for the -10.  One of his cheerleaders tried to publicly flog me and I responded with a very straightforward set of comments.  Jan then said he wouldn’t allow one of his friends to be publically humiliated but he apparently had no problem with a potential customer being so.  And no, he will never give dyno numbers.  He doesn’t feel it is necessary.  As far as non-delivery, do a search of websites of people that have his engines and you will find plenty of instances where he did not meet promised delivery dates.  One of his best supporters even received the supercharger well after the engine delivery (which was also late) pushing things out a year.  Oh and the “complete” firewall forward package apparently wasn’t so complete either.  I’m sure Jan knows who this is and he hopefully won’t threaten him to take down the site.  

   

  My comment below is no surprise to anyone who has done any type of due diligence on his offerings.  I made my decision to go with a Lycoming after spending a couple months talking to a dozen people flying Eggs engine and hanging around on his list.  Anytime someone spoke up on that list they were slammed back down.  I was contacted by several people off list to keep asking the hard questions because they had already ordered and were afraid they would be denied service for questioning the status quo.  

   

  I’m not anti-Eggenfeller as I still feel he has the best chance of producing an alternative engine package but it’s time for him to grow up his business and start PROVING the capabilities he touts.  I am also not saying that his engine does not meet the performance he claims, after all no one has dyno numbers on any of his engines so there is no way to tell.  I will say that the recent RVator article helps to shed some light on things.  I have the full history of the email conversations in question and anyone who wants to contact me off list for a copy is welcome to do so.  

   

  James, I’m guessing you already ordered one of his engines?  If not, I strongly suggest you do some serious background research.  In reality the only thing you get from his package is an alternative engine package that can keep MP to altitude.  The cost isn’t much different, the fuel flows won’t be much different, and the performance won’t be much different from a Lycoming.  What will be different is the resale value, expect it to be much less.   

   

  Oh ya, this dog hunts just fine.  

   

Michael Sausen  

RV-10 #352 Working on Fuselage  

Do Not Archive  

Recent RV-10 Build Activity    

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of James Clark

 Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 8:28 AM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials  

  

   

Micheal,

 

 It seems from your post that you have an issue of some sort with Jan.

 

 For those that are considering his product, this post comes across as not being fair without some facts. It is as if you are accusing him of non-delivery. If that is the case why not just say what the facts are? 

 

 I am sure he is now motivated to give you the "dyno numbers" you request.

 

 James

 .. no dog in this hunt     

On 7/17/06, RV Builder (Michael Sausen) <rvbuilder(at)sausen.net (rvbuilder(at)sausen.net)> wrote:        

Wow, you are actually making engine delivery dates for once.  I'm shocked!  Oh wait, it says delivery in December, so probably not huh.  Now how about some dyno numbers?  

     

Michael Sausen  

RV-10 #352 Working on Fuselage  

Do Not Archive  

Recent RV-10 Build Activity  

      

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com  (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of EAAINC(at)aol.com (EAAINC(at)aol.com)

 Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 7:00 AM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)

 Subject: Re: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials  

  

  

    

     

I have been asked to announce that Eggenfellner Does have turbocharged 220HP RV-10 engines and that they will be on sale at Oshkosh this year.  Deliveries are available for December with 50% deposits.  

    

   

    

Jan  

  

  

  

  

  



  

 -- 

 This is an alternate email. Please continue to email me at james(at)nextupventures.com (james(at)nextupventures.com) .

rvbuilder(at)sausen.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 9:03 am Post subject: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials

I think I heard he went out of business.  Not sure though



Michael Sausen



RV-10 #352 Working on Fuselage



Do Not Archive

--

effectus(at)rogers.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 9:38 am Post subject: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials

I'm the fellow from Ontario.



    I did a whole lot of research into the weight issues when looking to put 

a Corvette engine in my '10. Just couldn't make it work when all was said 

and done. At lease not without having to get into adding weight in the tail. 

Sexy motor for sure but, and I hate to say it TOO much horsepower and too 

big a temptation to utilize it. I'd still like to have my '10 powered by the 

'General'. The "Corvette" statement has been removed from the Wiki site for 

a while now.



    I am looking into an inline 4 cylinder solution that would produce 250 

hp and a geared PSRU that would be hydraulic prop compatible. Lots of work 

ahead in putting a reliable package together for RVs. Work is progressing.



    I'd like to chime in a little as well on the Egg subarus. I have been 

reading alternative engine forums for years now and I keep hearing the same 

thing time and again. We are all looking for an alternative to Lycoming 

(except for the purists) that will be accompanied by dyno data from the 

specific purchased engine and to receive the engine when promised. You would 

think that vendors would get that!



    You never know, there may be a new player on the block before long who 

has at heart the needs of builders just like the ones on this list.



Dave Hertner



"Under Promise and Over Deliver"

do not archive



---

Tdawson(at)avidyne.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 10:15 am Post subject: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials

I used to dream that my Yamaha-built V6 in my old Taurus SHO would work

in an airplane, but it's probably too heavy, too.  That engine was

bullet-proof.  Plus it sounded like a sweet motorcycle when you took it

to high revs . . .



TDT

do not archive



--

bsponcil(at)belinblank.or
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 10:57 am Post subject: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials

For those of us just starting, there may be a diesel option around when 

we're shopping for motors.



See: 

http://web.thielert.com/typo3/index.php?id=660&backPID=660&tt_news=625&L=1



As for the EGG-Subie, the main disadvantage is the relative expense. I can 

get a decent, albeit used, lycosaur (accessories included) for quite a bit 

less than Jan's offering.  Yes, overhauls are cheap but how long is it going 

to take to run the subaru out? I guess for me, if you're going to go 

alternative, the product needs to be compelling on either performance or 

price and I don't think the Subaru engine is significantly different on 

either.  IMHO, of course.

-Brian



#40497

N211BD

Iowa City, IA

---

rvbuilder(at)sausen.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 11:00 am Post subject: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials

James, thanks for calling BS on me BTW.  I’m always happy to have someone question a statement on the list as there is waaaay too much fluff thrown around on the net.  I TRY to have facts when I post as I don’t like it when people point to me and say he’s full of it.   Of course no one is perfect and I can always rely on John, Dan, and others to point out the errors of my ways and I will always be the first to stand up and say I’m wrong.  I just try to make sure it doesn’t happen very often.   

   

Michael Sausen  

RV-10 #352 Working on Fuselage  

Do Not Archive  

Recent RV-10 Build Activity    

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of James Clark

 Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 11:47 AM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials  

  

   

Thanks for the detailed response Michael.

 

 No, I don't have a Subie on order. I am flying behind a Lycoming now and my current project is a Lycoming (clone).

 

 I simply didn't have the "history" you referenced and came across the message and wondered what motivated the style of comment. 

 

 James

 

     

On 7/17/06, RV Builder (Michael Sausen) <rvbuilder(at)sausen.net (rvbuilder(at)sausen.net)> wrote:        

  Oh boy do I have some history.  Jan booted me from his list for asking him to validate his ever changing HP numbers on his H6 for the -10.  One of his cheerleaders tried to publicly flog me and I responded with a very straightforward set of comments.  Jan then said he wouldn't allow one of his friends to be publically humiliated but he apparently had no problem with a potential customer being so.  And no, he will never give dyno numbers.  He doesn't feel it is necessary.  As far as non-delivery, do a search of websites of people that have his engines and you will find plenty of instances where he did not meet promised delivery dates.  One of his best supporters even received the supercharger well after the engine delivery (which was also late) pushing things out a year.  Oh and the "complete" firewall forward package apparently wasn't so complete either.  I'm sure Jan knows who this is and he hopefully won't threaten him to take down the site.  

   

  My comment below is no surprise to anyone who has done any type of due diligence on his offerings.  I made my decision to go with a Lycoming after spending a couple months talking to a dozen people flying Eggs engine and hanging around on his list.  Anytime someone spoke up on that list they were slammed back down.  I was contacted by several people off list to keep asking the hard questions because they had already ordered and were afraid they would be denied service for questioning the status quo.  

   

  I'm not anti-Eggenfeller as I still feel he has the best chance of producing an alternative engine package but it's time for him to grow up his business and start PROVING the capabilities he touts.  I am also not saying that his engine does not meet the performance he claims, after all no one has dyno numbers on any of his engines so there is no way to tell.  I will say that the recent RVator article helps to shed some light on things.  I have the full history of the email conversations in question and anyone who wants to contact me off list for a copy is welcome to do so.  

   

  James, I'm guessing you already ordered one of his engines?  If not, I strongly suggest you do some serious background research.  In reality the only thing you get from his package is an alternative engine package that can keep MP to altitude.  The cost isn't much different, the fuel flows won't be much different, and the performance won't be much different from a Lycoming.  What will be different is the resale value, expect it to be much less.   

   

  Oh ya, this dog hunts just fine.  

    

   

Michael Sausen  

RV-10 #352 Working on Fuselage  

Do Not Archive  

Recent RV-10 Build Activity  

      

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com  (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of James Clark

 Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 8:28 AM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)

 Subject: Re: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials  

  

    

   

Micheal,

 

 It seems from your post that you have an issue of some sort with Jan.

 

 For those that are considering his product, this post comes across as not being fair without some facts. It is as if you are accusing him of non-delivery. If that is the case why not just say what the facts are? 

 

 I am sure he is now motivated to give you the "dyno numbers" you request.

 

 James

 .. no dog in this hunt     

On 7/17/06, RV Builder (Michael Sausen) <rvbuilder(at)sausen.net (rvbuilder(at)sausen.net)> wrote:        

Wow, you are actually making engine delivery dates for once.  I'm shocked!  Oh wait, it says delivery in December, so probably not huh.  Now how about some dyno numbers?  

     

Michael Sausen  

RV-10 #352 Working on Fuselage  

Do Not Archive  

Recent RV-10 Build Activity  

      

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com  (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of EAAINC(at)aol.com (EAAINC(at)aol.com)

 Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 7:00 AM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com) 

 Subject: Re: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials  

  

  

    

     

I have been asked to announce that Eggenfellner Does have turbocharged 220HP RV-10 engines and that they will be on sale at Oshkosh this year.  Deliveries are available for December with 50% deposits.  

    

   

    

Jan  

  

  

  

  

  



  

 -- 

 This is an alternate email. Please continue to email me at james(at)nextupventures.com  (james(at)nextupventures.com).  

  

  

  

  



  

 -- 

 This is an alternate email. Please continue to email me at james(at)nextupventures.com (james(at)nextupventures.com) .

CJohnston(at)popsound.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 12:18 pm Post subject: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials

I’ll just chime in with my .02…..I came to flying after a long love affair with drag racing.  I built my share of race engines, and saw the technology steadily improve over about a 10 year period.  Some engines were built to run hard and long and be bulletproof.  Some just for the occasional blast down the quarter mile only to possibly explode at the far end.  Anyway, fast forward to when I got to the systems part in private pilot training, and my jaw dropped.  I couldn’t believe what I had been flying behind.  Burns how much oil?  Don’t pull the power all the way back and shock cool the engine?   Plug fouling, leaky, looser tolerances, hard starting, low TBO, mixture knob…  you all know the drill.  And yes, I know there are nicer and not so nice aircraft engines, but remember, I’m new, so I get to rent what’s on the line at my local airfield, so it’s the beat up 172 with a hodge-podge of avionics, no door seals, and an intermittent fuel gauge.  I’m getting over the shock, and I haven’t yet had one quit on me, but when I started building, I resolved to go a better way.  I researched all the usual suspects for alternatives – rotary, turbine, H-opposed 6 (sube) – and the only one I could find with any sort of contiguous history was the Egg sube.  I have high hopes for this package, as the benefits are many…  electronically controlled spark and mixture, smoother running, low oil consumption, more main bearings that are more closely spaced, and also the fact that there’s not a big heavy thing bolted directly to the crank swinging around.  I know that sounds funny, but to me, building a nice, tight, balanced, harmonically controlled engine, then bolting a big, heavy variable to one end of the crank doesn’t sound like a good idea.  Also, that cool new 4 blade MT prop that they are working with will look super cool J!!  Having said all that, for me, the RV-10 package is just not quite far enough along.  I don’t want to make a career out of trying to power my airplane, I just want to finish and fly.  I kind of wish I had the balls to give it a try, but I’m just not sure I want to be that much of a test pilot.  I really respect and heartily support those who are going with the package, and I think it’s probably going to work pretty well.  I stay current on the Egg email list so that I can watch their progress, and it looks promising.  For me, (sigh)  I’m going to have to go the regular old IO-540 route and try to update it as much as possible with things like electronic ignition and WHOOPEE (sarcastic) roller lifters.  I’ll just keep hoping that someone will come out with a FADEC for the 540, and that will make it a bit better.  If I’m making the 540 sound dismal, it’s only because I know that engine technology is capable of so much better…  

   

cj  

#40410  

fuse  

   

--

LloydDR(at)wernerco.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 12:32 pm Post subject: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials

What I meant by the performance numbers, was directly  related to the article and the RV9 package, I also know that the RV7 package is  equal. What is still unknown is the 10 package as one has not been delivered  yet.

 Yes, the subbie has the unknowns, but you bought a plane  that had 1 flying at the time, so who is contradicting themselves? "GRIN"  granted Vans has a reputation for great 2 seaters, but the 4 seater is totally  different and he will tell you the same thing. So, yes as a product builds  popularity, there will be delivery pains, and those pains are directly  proportional to the size of the supply chain you have to support it. Vans was  able to quickly catch up because they have the resources to bring to bear, and  Jan does not have these resources. So as his popularity has built, as evidenced  by the numbers, production schedules do slip, and all you have to do is call  him, and he will give you a best estimate as of that time. 

 As for building hours, somebody has to fly those hours to  prove it, and that is underway by the 300 or so people that have made the  commitment, and they will continue to grow as more of us start to fly. It will  just be a game of wait and see, as the numbers build though I would expect more  converts. Also there was just a discussion on re-sale and what one could expect  to get out of it, and several people stated that we are not building for profit,  rather for enjoyment. I fall into the category of enjoyment and experimentation.  I want to be able to do anything I want with the plane, IE experimental, and if  I had more time to give, I would probably do my own conversion, but I do not  have enough knowledge right now to attempt that. So I am learning how to build  an airframe, and next time I will learn about the power plant, but it will be an  auto conversion, and it will be after my first plane is up and flying, and I can  take as long as necassary.

 The key to your last paragraph is all about the  little guy, somebody has to be there to support them, or there will not be any  advancements made. It is through the few of us that are willing to take a  chance, that the rest of the community will benefit, IE Dynon, GRT, Tru-Track,  Blue Mountain, etc. All of them had to start somewhere, and somebody had to be  the first customers. We need to support them and the people who trust them, as  this is how we all support progress. It might not be for everyone to be an  early adopter, but someone has to go first and we should all be thankful for  that someone, because if it was not for them, we would all be stuck flying SPAM  cans

  

 Dan Lloyd

 40269  (N289DT)

 Fuselage



   From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder  (Michael Sausen)

Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 12:24 PM

To:  rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: Oshkosh Subaru Engine  Specials

 

  

   Dan, I’m not tearing down anyone.  As you will see from all of my posts I  think Jan does a good job.  I’m just stating facts.  The resale thing  is pretty much a given.  You will have a smaller market reselling anything  that is a one off and it is unlikely you will get the same value as what is  considered standard.    I do find it interesting that below you  say the performance numbers are right on for a Lycoming but then in the same  paragraph you say that there are no performance numbers.  Hmmmm.  I  whole heartedly expect someone to defend a purchase they made so I’m glad you  and others are defending the package.  I went with a package that defends  itself based on hundreds of thousands of running hours in aircraft.  Was it  a good choice maybe, I would probably consider it a safe choice more than  anything.  I’m not expecting any major unknowns which is what allows me to  sleep well at night (pending any $*^&$#! AD’s).  For me the Egg Subie  still had too many unknowns, not a bad thing if you really are behind  experimenting, just not something I felt comfortable with when flying my family  around. 

  

   Anyway, I am sincerely glad that 15 RV-10 builders have ordered his package and  I anxiously await results and data from the first flying conversions.  This  is the only way to get an alternative engine out there and I salute those  willing to be true experimenters.  But in the mean time the only thing we  can go by are the facts.  But get one thing straight, I am not slamming Jan  as I don’t know the guy, I am not slamming his products as I do not own anything  he has ever built.  I am questioning his business practices and his  performance numbers.  You are right on the money with the other vendors  having delivery problems.  The difference is they have much more product  out there and their problems are the exception and not the  rule. 

   

Michael  Sausen 

RV-10  #352 Working on Fuselage 

Do  Not Archive 

Recent RV-10 Build  Activity

   

From:  owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lloyd, Daniel  R.

Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 10:26 AM

To:  rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: Oshkosh Subaru Engine  Specials



 

  

Here we  go again.... 

In all  fairness to delivery dates, I can name every major vendor out there that has  slipped dates. I have paid in full for my Chelton with harness and had the dates  slipped on my harness from Direct to Avionics, and the last time I called they  had not even finalized the package. Another one comes to mind is Tru-trak, I  have had my servos on order before May, and have been told several times they  would be shipped in the next few days, it is now July and I still do not have  them. Does this make me mad? No, just disappointed, but I planned for the delays  and in such I will get them and do not have to stress about it, and it will be  the same with the engine.  

  

These  small production numbers do not lend themselves well to predictable delivery  times, and as such, we need to be tolerant of them and slips. One thing Jan has  the ability to do well is communicate to his customers. He is forth coming with  changes and allows us to be part of it. He has kept us informed of the steps  along the way. It is an experimental engine, that is currently being designed,  so yes, there will be delays. But all you have to do is call and he will give  you his best guess, and that is what it is a guess at that time because  unforeseen things come up, the PSRU change comes to mind. But these delays end  up in a better product.  

   

As for the performance figures, they are right on with a Lycoming, and since this is being sold as a Lycoming replacement, I would say that it is living right up to  expectations. Yes, the cost is the same in the beginning, but during a re-build, you will get a brand new engine, for less than it would cost to just do a top overhaul on a Lycoming.

  

As for  the RV10 the package is too new to tell on performance numbers, but once I am  flying with it, I will have a FWF solution including a C/S speed prop, that in  total costs significantly less than a New Lycoming FWF  solution. 

  

 

  

I would  like to know where you got your information on the resale numbers, because I am  only aware of one sale with an E-Subaru, and that was for the same amount a  standard would sell for. I am not aware on any other sales, but they could be  out there.

  

 

  

The end  result is this, in the alternative engine market Jan is the leader for  RV's. The other two have fallen flat on their face or have gone out of business.  I have been following this engine package for years, and like what I see, and  the progress that has been made. More importantly, I trust Jan and his ability  to deliver on the engine, and if there are issues I am confident in his ability  to fix them. This is the alternative engine market, and something's have to be  taken on faith and your trust in the person. 

  

 

  

We all  jumped on the RV10 bandwagon, even before performance numbers were truly known,  and this was because we trust in Vans Aircraft and their commitment to deliver a  good product. Many of us ordered before the kits had even begun being designed,  but that was because we trusted they would make it and make it right, and the  delivery times might have slipped, even as large as Vans is, they did slip on  time in the early kits. I imagine back in the early 80's, people were having the  same discussions about Van's and their ability to deliver, we just did not have  the internet to pontificate about it.

  

 

  

So in  all reality, Mike get  over it, the engine is not for you, we all know it is not for  you, but you do not have to tear down another persons business, to make yourself  feel better about your decision. All of the vendors have suffered in delivery  times, just get over it.

  

 

  

Dan  Lloyd

  

40269  (N289DT)

  

Fuselage

  

 

  

 

   

 

From:  owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder  (Michael Sausen)

Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 10:17 AM

To:  rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: Oshkosh Subaru Engine  Specials 

   Oh boy do I have some history.  Jan booted me from his list for asking him  to validate his ever changing HP numbers on his H6 for the -10.  One of his  cheerleaders tried to publicly flog me and I responded with a very  straightforward set of comments.  Jan then said he wouldn’t allow one of  his friends to be publically humiliated but he apparently had no problem with a  potential customer being so.  And no, he will never give dyno  numbers.  He doesn’t feel it is necessary.  As far as non-delivery, do  a search of websites of people that have his engines and you will find plenty of  instances where he did not meet promised delivery dates.  One of his best  supporters even received the supercharger well after the engine delivery (which  was also late) pushing things out a year.  Oh and the “complete” firewall  forward package apparently wasn’t so complete either.  I’m sure Jan knows  who this is and he hopefully won’t threaten him to take down the  site. 

  

   My comment below is no surprise to anyone who has done any type of due diligence  on his offerings.  I made my decision to go with a Lycoming after spending  a couple months talking to a dozen people flying Eggs engine and hanging around  on his list.  Anytime someone spoke up on that list they were slammed back  down.  I was contacted by several people off list to keep asking the hard  questions because they had already ordered and were afraid they would be denied  service for questioning the status quo. 

  

   I’m not anti-Eggenfeller as I still feel he has the best chance of producing an  alternative engine package but it’s time for him to grow up his business and  start PROVING the capabilities he touts.  I am also not saying that his  engine does not meet the performance he claims, after all no one has dyno  numbers on any of his engines so there is no way to tell.  I will say that  the recent RVator article helps to shed some light on things.  I have the  full history of the email conversations in question and anyone who wants to  contact me off list for a copy is welcome to do so. 

  

   James, I’m guessing you already ordered one of his engines?  If not, I  strongly suggest you do some serious background research.  In reality the  only thing you get from his package is an alternative engine package that can  keep MP to altitude.  The cost isn’t much different, the fuel flows won’t  be much different, and the performance won’t be much different from a  Lycoming.  What will be different is the resale value, expect it to be much  less.  

  

   Oh ya, this dog hunts just fine. 

  

Michael  Sausen 

RV-10  #352 Working on Fuselage 

Recent RV-10 Build  Activity  

From:  owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of James  Clark

Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 8:28 AM

To:  rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Oshkosh Subaru Engine  Specials

 

  

Micheal,



It seems from  your post that you have an issue of some sort with Jan.



For those that  are considering his product, this post comes across as not being fair without  some facts. It is as if you are accusing him of non-delivery. If that is the  case why not just say what the facts are? 



I am sure he is now motivated  to give you the "dyno numbers" you request.



James

... no dog in this  hunt   

On 7/17/06, RV Builder (Michael  Sausen) <rvbuilder(at)sausen.net (rvbuilder(at)sausen.net)>  wrote:    

Wow, you are actually making  engine delivery dates for once.  I'm shocked!  Oh wait, it says  delivery in December, so probably not huh.  Now how about some dyno  numbers? 

   

Michael  Sausen 

RV-10 #352 Working on  Fuselage 

Recent RV-10 Build  Activity

   

From:  owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com  (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of EAAINC(at)aol.com (EAAINC(at)aol.com)

Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 7:00  AM

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)

Subject: Re: RV10-List:  Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials

  

   

I have been asked to announce  that Eggenfellner Does have turbocharged 220HP RV-10 engines and that they will  be on sale at Oshkosh this year.  Deliveries are available for December  with 50% deposits.

  

 

  

Jan





 

-- 

This is an alternate email.  Please continue to email me at james(at)nextupventures.com (james(at)nextupventures.com)  .

indigoonlatigo(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 2:07 pm Post subject: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials

For those of your who are going to Osk, please pick the brains of the 

companies, Innodyne, Eggenfellner and AES.



Lets keep this list interesting and informative.  I'm sorry I will not be 

able to attent.



I am obviously looking for one of those alternatives.



John G.



Do not archive

 	  Quote: 	
		  From: "Lloyd, Daniel R." <LloydDR(at)wernerco.com>

Reply-To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

To: <rv10-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: RE: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials

Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2006 16:31:25 -0400



What I meant by the performance numbers, was directly related to the

article and the RV9 package, I also know that the RV7 package is equal.

What is still unknown is the 10 package as one has not been delivered

yet.

Yes, the subbie has the unknowns, but you bought a plane that had 1

flying at the time, so who is contradicting themselves? "GRIN" granted

Vans has a reputation for great 2 seaters, but the 4 seater is totally

different and he will tell you the same thing. So, yes as a product

builds popularity, there will be delivery pains, and those pains are

directly proportional to the size of the supply chain you have to

support it. Vans was able to quickly catch up because they have the

resources to bring to bear, and Jan does not have these resources. So as

his popularity has built, as evidenced by the numbers, production

schedules do slip, and all you have to do is call him, and he will give

you a best estimate as of that time.

As for building hours, somebody has to fly those hours to prove it, and

that is underway by the 300 or so people that have made the commitment,

and they will continue to grow as more of us start to fly. It will just

be a game of wait and see, as the numbers build though I would expect

more converts. Also there was just a discussion on re-sale and what one

could expect to get out of it, and several people stated that we are not

building for profit, rather for enjoyment. I fall into the category of

enjoyment and experimentation. I want to be able to do anything I want

with the plane, IE experimental, and if I had more time to give, I would

probably do my own conversion, but I do not have enough knowledge right

now to attempt that. So I am learning how to build an airframe, and next

time I will learn about the power plant, but it will be an auto

conversion, and it will be after my first plane is up and flying, and I

can take as long as necassary.

The key to your last paragraph is all about the little guy, somebody has

to be there to support them, or there will not be any advancements made.

It is through the few of us that are willing to take a chance, that the

rest of the community will benefit, IE Dynon, GRT, Tru-Track, Blue

Mountain, etc. All of them had to start somewhere, and somebody had to

be the first customers. We need to support them and the people who trust

them, as this is how we all support progress. It might not be for

everyone to be an early adopter, but someone has to go first and we

should all be thankful for that someone, because if it was not for them,

we would all be stuck flying SPAM cans



Dan Lloyd

40269 (N289DT)

Fuselage



   _____



[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder

(Michael Sausen)

Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 12:24 PM



   Dan, I'm not tearing down anyone.  As you will see from all of my

posts I think Jan does a good job.  I'm just stating facts.  The resale

thing is pretty much a given.  You will have a smaller market reselling

anything that is a one off and it is unlikely you will get the same

value as what is considered standard.    I do find it interesting that

below you say the performance numbers are right on for a Lycoming but

then in the same paragraph you say that there are no performance

numbers.  Hmmmm.  I whole heartedly expect someone to defend a purchase

they made so I'm glad you and others are defending the package.  I went

with a package that defends itself based on hundreds of thousands of

running hours in aircraft.  Was it a good choice maybe, I would probably

consider it a safe choice more than anything.  I'm not expecting any

major unknowns which is what allows me to sleep well at night (pending

any $*^&$#! AD's).  For me the Egg Subie still had too many unknowns,

not a bad thing if you really are behind experimenting, just not

something I felt comfortable with when flying my family around.



   Anyway, I am sincerely glad that 15 RV-10 builders have ordered his

package and I anxiously await results and data from the first flying

conversions.  This is the only way to get an alternative engine out

there and I salute those willing to be true experimenters.  But in the

mean time the only thing we can go by are the facts.  But get one thing

straight, I am not slamming Jan as I don't know the guy, I am not

slamming his products as I do not own anything he has ever built.  I am

questioning his business practices and his performance numbers.  You are

right on the money with the other vendors having delivery problems.  The

difference is they have much more product out there and their problems

are the exception and not the rule.



Michael Sausen



RV-10 #352 Working on Fuselage



Do Not Archive



Recent RV-10 Build Activity

<http://www.mykitlog.com/display_project.php?project_id=22>



[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lloyd, Daniel

R.

Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 10:26 AM



Here we go again....



In all fairness to delivery dates, I can name every major vendor out

there that has slipped dates. I have paid in full for my Chelton with

harness and had the dates slipped on my harness from Direct to Avionics,

and the last time I called they had not even finalized the package.

Another one comes to mind is Tru-trak, I have had my servos on order

before May, and have been told several times they would be shipped in

the next few days, it is now July and I still do not have them. Does

this make me mad? No, just disappointed, but I planned for the delays

and in such I will get them and do not have to stress about it, and it

will be the same with the engine.



These small production numbers do not lend themselves well to

predictable delivery times, and as such, we need to be tolerant of them

and slips. One thing Jan has the ability to do well is communicate to

his customers. He is forth coming with changes and allows us to be part

of it. He has kept us informed of the steps along the way. It is an

experimental engine, that is currently being designed, so yes, there

will be delays. But all you have to do is call and he will give you his

best guess, and that is what it is a guess at that time because

unforeseen things come up, the PSRU change comes to mind. But these

delays end up in a better product.



As for the performance figures, they are right on with a Lycoming, and

since this is being sold as a Lycoming replacement, I would say that it

is living right up to expectations. Yes, the cost is the same in the

beginning, but during a re-build, you will get a brand new engine, for

less than it would cost to just do a top overhaul on a Lycoming.



As for the RV10 the package is too new to tell on performance numbers,

but once I am flying with it, I will have a FWF solution including a C/S

speed prop, that in total costs significantly less than a New Lycoming

FWF solution.



I would like to know where you got your information on the resale

numbers, because I am only aware of one sale with an E-Subaru, and that

was for the same amount a standard would sell for. I am not aware on any

other sales, but they could be out there.



The end result is this, in the alternative engine market Jan is the

leader for RV's. The other two have fallen flat on their face or have

gone out of business. I have been following this engine package for

years, and like what I see, and the progress that has been made. More

importantly, I trust Jan and his ability to deliver on the engine, and

if there are issues I am confident in his ability to fix them. This is

the alternative engine market, and something's have to be taken on faith

and your trust in the person.



We all jumped on the RV10 bandwagon, even before performance numbers

were truly known, and this was because we trust in Vans Aircraft and

their commitment to deliver a good product. Many of us ordered before

the kits had even begun being designed, but that was because we trusted

they would make it and make it right, and the delivery times might have

slipped, even as large as Vans is, they did slip on time in the early

kits. I imagine back in the early 80's, people were having the same

discussions about Van's and their ability to deliver, we just did not

have the internet to pontificate about it.



So in all reality, Mike get over it, the engine is not for you, we all

know it is not for you, but you do not have to tear down another persons

business, to make yourself feel better about your decision. All of the

vendors have suffered in delivery times, just get over it.



Dan Lloyd



40269 (N289DT)



Fuselage



   _____



[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder

(Michael Sausen)

Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 10:17 AM



   Oh boy do I have some history.  Jan booted me from his list for asking

him to validate his ever changing HP numbers on his H6 for the -10.  One

of his cheerleaders tried to publicly flog me and I responded with a

very straightforward set of comments.  Jan then said he wouldn't allow

one of his friends to be publically humiliated but he apparently had no

problem with a potential customer being so.  And no, he will never give

dyno numbers.  He doesn't feel it is necessary.  As far as non-delivery,

do a search of websites of people that have his engines and you will

find plenty of instances where he did not meet promised delivery dates.

One of his best supporters even received the supercharger well after the

engine delivery (which was also late) pushing things out a year.  Oh and

the "complete" firewall forward package apparently wasn't so complete

either.  I'm sure Jan knows who this is and he hopefully won't threaten

him to take down the site.



   My comment below is no surprise to anyone who has done any type of due

diligence on his offerings.  I made my decision to go with a Lycoming

after spending a couple months talking to a dozen people flying Eggs

engine and hanging around on his list.  Anytime someone spoke up on that

list they were slammed back down.  I was contacted by several people off

list to keep asking the hard questions because they had already ordered

and were afraid they would be denied service for questioning the status

quo.



   I'm not anti-Eggenfeller as I still feel he has the best chance of

producing an alternative engine package but it's time for him to grow up

his business and start PROVING the capabilities he touts.  I am also not

saying that his engine does not meet the performance he claims, after

all no one has dyno numbers on any of his engines so there is no way to

tell.  I will say that the recent RVator article helps to shed some

light on things.  I have the full history of the email conversations in

question and anyone who wants to contact me off list for a copy is

welcome to do so.



   James, I'm guessing you already ordered one of his engines?  If not, I

strongly suggest you do some serious background research.  In reality

the only thing you get from his package is an alternative engine package

that can keep MP to altitude.  The cost isn't much different, the fuel

flows won't be much different, and the performance won't be much

different from a Lycoming.  What will be different is the resale value,

expect it to be much less.



   Oh ya, this dog hunts just fine.



Michael Sausen



RV-10 #352 Working on Fuselage



Recent RV-10 Build Activity

<http://www.mykitlog.com/display_project.php?project_id=22>



[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of James Clark

Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 8:28 AM



Micheal,



It seems from your post that you have an issue of some sort with Jan.



For those that are considering his product, this post comes across as

not being fair without some facts. It is as if you are accusing him of

non-delivery. If that is the case why not just say what the facts are?



I am sure he is now motivated to give you the "dyno numbers" you

request.



James

... no dog in this hunt



On 7/17/06, RV Builder (Michael Sausen) <rvbuilder(at)sausen.net> wrote:



Wow, you are actually making engine delivery dates for once.  I'm

shocked!  Oh wait, it says delivery in December, so probably not huh.

Now how about some dyno numbers?



Michael Sausen



RV-10 #352 Working on Fuselage



Recent RV-10 Build Activity

<http://www.mykitlog.com/display_project.php?project_id=22>



[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com ] On Behalf Of

EAAINC(at)aol.com

Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 7:00 AM



I have been asked to announce that Eggenfellner Does have turbocharged

220HP RV-10 engines and that they will be on sale at Oshkosh this year.

Deliveries are available for December with 50% deposits.



Jan





--

This is an alternate email. Please continue to email me at

james(at)nextupventures.com .

seipel(at)seznam.cz
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 2:09 pm Post subject: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials

The only problem is you'd have to convince Van's to support it since 

they only sell to OEM's.  Maybe we'll get lucky and the engine will be 

good enough that Van would be willing to try it.



PJ

#40032



Brian Sponcil wrote:

[quote] 

 <bsponcil(at)belinblank.org>

 For those of us just starting, there may be a diesel option around 

 when we're shopping for motors.



 See: 

 http://web.thielert.com/typo3/index.php?id=660&backPID=660&tt_news=625&L=1 

 As for the EGG-Subie, the main disadvantage is the relative expense. I 

 can get a decent, albeit used, lycosaur (accessories included) for 

 quite a bit less than Jan's offering.  Yes, overhauls are cheap but 

 how long is it going to take to run the subaru out? I guess for me, if 

 you're going to go alternative, the product needs to be compelling on 

 either performance or price and I don't think the Subaru engine is 

 significantly different on either.  IMHO, of course.

 -Brian



 #40497

 N211BD

 Iowa City, IA

 ---

AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 3:46 pm Post subject: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials

Two years ago, a Subie alternative seemed viable, so did the Innodyne

turbine(except for Lancair's embarrassing display of a twin Innodyne at

OSH '05), so did an alternative four stroke automotive and a European

diesel.



As of today, the offers remain without viability, more time is

necessary.  Too few are flying prototypes and their record is not

blazing major pressure against the two Dinosaurs.  I invested my time

attending the seminars by Mr. Atkins and listening to his story of his

lost engine in-flight.  I like the passion of those trying something

new.  I think many will be pleasantly surprised when Dave comes to

market next year with his alternative powerplant.



Having been involved in some of the planning, discussion and carrying

the desire to see a viable alternative, it is clear I may need to wait

another two years and watch the dust settle from the more major issues

of the Middle East. At this point my endorsement goes to Aerosport or

Barrett and the boringly conservative choice to be patient.



Good luck to you Bleeding Edge Innovators.  100LL and a dinosaur is my

only endorsement... Damn it. I won't MOGAS my future.



John - $00.02

Do not Archive



--

AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 4:53 pm Post subject: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials

An effective aircraft powerplant needs reliability.  You should see the

size and weight of our PSRU on the PW123 and PW150.  They weigh as much

as any forged steel crank ever would.  Only difference is the 17:1

reduction to bring those turbine speeds down to manageable prop

swinging.  Oh, and they are way out front to balance the lighter

powerplant.



I have a friend who has built Subies for the Auto Race circuit.  Love

the power, hate the noise, can't tolerate the seal replacement

frequency.  His clients have the money and trailer it home when it needs

servicing. Thanks, I am calcifying into a dinosaur as we read.

John

Do not Archive



--

Tdawson(at)avidyne.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 5:03 pm Post subject: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials

Thielert looks like a good future alternative.  They have built up good support, it seems, and are now part of Superior, so they have a US presence now, too.  Diamond is/will be delivering airplanes with Thielert, so there's a base, too.  When my 540 reaches TBO . . .



TDT

40025

--

Tdawson(at)avidyne.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 5:08 pm Post subject: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials

Any life from Mistral, the Europeans building Mazda-based rotaries for airplanes?



TDT

40025



--

AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 5:22 pm Post subject: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials

The only Thielert problem is owner/builders and certificated A & Ps

can't work on them.  They must all go back to the approved service

centers. They are downright miserly on the diesel consumption rate for

the DA-42 I am looking at.  The new engine holds much operator (Pilot)

promise.  Less for wrenches.



John Cox

Do not Archive



--

bob.kaufmann(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 5:53 pm Post subject: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials

Can't say a lot because in the building stage instead of the flying stage

but I looked at all the options before I made my decision on which direction

for an engine I would go.  



I spent a lot of time researching the Inodyne, talked with Deltahawk about

the diesel and Subaru.  I ended up going with a tried but not popular engine

from Mazda.  A Cosmo 20 B.  I am in the process of a complete overhaul and I

do mean complete.  All the parts will cost me less than $2000.00.  I will

easily get 280 horsepower from the engine and will burn a little more gas.

I'll burn .50 lbs per horsepower instead on .42.  That sounds bad until you

realize that I'm burning mogas at 3.05 instead of 100LL at $4.60.  All of a

sudden my MPDollar is not bad at all.  When I'm done I will have close to

$7500 into a zero time overhaul that should last well beyond 2000 hours.  I

believe that is less than the cost of a crankshaft replacement for a

Lycoming.



There is enough support out there for the Cosmo that I have very little fear

in the engine.  



Tracy Crook and Conversion Concepts have led the way and Vari-Pitch Props

have sealed the deal.  Imagine a prop that is hydraulic for a lot less than

Hartzell.  It's up to Larry at Vari-pitch to tell you how much but I'm going

to be into a flying RV-10 for under $75,000 and that includes GRT dual

displays.  



Go ahead, buy the lycasaurus, but some of us won't and it may take a few

weeks longer to work out the wrinkles, but if we didn't want to do that we

would have bought a used Beech V Tail and just  been like the rest of the

crowd.



Bob K

Finishing kit and Cosmo 20B 

PS:  See you at OSHKOSH.

dvanwinkle(at)royell.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 6:21 pm Post subject: Oshkosh Subaru Engine Specials

Tim



Mistral will be at Oshkosh near Van's location. Check with them for their 

latest progress.



Dean Van Winkle

RV-9A Finish  Mazda 13B NA, Mistral Intake Manifold



---

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