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Diy AOA, anyone ?

 
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gilles.thesee(at)free.fr
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 7:16 pm    Post subject: Diy AOA, anyone ? Reply with quote

Hi all,

One of my building buddies just challenged me concerning the following
Pitot angle of attack (AOA) device

https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1121786

Of course 3D printing the device is the easiest part. But does anyone
here happen to have implemented, programmed, etc. an AOA indicator, and
with what success ?

BTW, some years ago I had the opportunity to make a study for such a
device based on differential pressure between upper and lower wing
surface. At the time the study involved a University wind tunnel,
hotwire profiles, several students, but nowadays my approach needs to be
much much "lower tech" as I no longer have access to such facilities.

Thanks for your inputs,

--
Best regards,
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
http://lapierre.skunkworks.free.fr


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andymeyer



Joined: 31 Mar 2015
Posts: 15
Location: SW MI

PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 4:34 am    Post subject: Re: Diy AOA, anyone ? Reply with quote

I am about to embark on such a device...
I do have a few sensors that I'm exploring -
https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/NXP/MPXV5004DP/?qs=r8OyiFxb6Rd0SEc8C8FTtQ%3D%3D&gclid=Cj0KCQjwqsHWBRDsARIsALPWMEPR9lBEDtFAgUCnJAyuzfox0BoKwWSAPuJzr-_TL6mzXtmxLWp3dcMaAjfiEALw_wcB
Looks pretty dang close for the pressure sensing. Do you know how much deltaP we are expecting at sub 200 knots indicated based on your previous work?

I've got to finish my airspeed sensing for my engine monitor / air data computer first, then on to AOA.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 5:15 am    Post subject: Diy AOA, anyone ? Reply with quote

Hi Andy:
I worked on an RV6A which had this AOA unit:
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/inpages/aoasportsystemaluminum.php?clickkey=5477

It required and used sensing holes on the top and bottom of the wing.  Maybe...  If you give them a call...  NOT ACS!  They maybe able to answer the question.
Barry
On Fri, Apr 13, 2018 at 8:34 AM, andymeyer <meyerkc135(at)gmail.com (meyerkc135(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "andymeyer" <meyerkc135(at)gmail.com (meyerkc135(at)gmail.com)>

I am about to embark on such a device...
I do have a few sensors that I'm exploring -
https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/NXP/MPXV5004DP/?qs=r8OyiFxb6Rd0SEc8C8FTtQ%3D%3D&gclid=Cj0KCQjwqsHWBRDsARIsALPWMEPR9lBEDtFAgUCnJAyuzfox0BoKwWSAPuJzr-_TL6mzXtmxLWp3dcMaAjfiEALw_wcB
Looks pretty dang close for the pressure sensing. Do you know how much deltaP we are expecting at sub 200 knots indicated based on your previous work?

I've got to finish my airspeed sensing for my engine monitor / air data computer first, then on to AOA.




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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 5:28 am    Post subject: Diy AOA, anyone ? Reply with quote

I cut the corner off a piece of 1/2" plate of aluminum. With it oriented so the 90 degree angle is at the top right, I drilled a 1/4" hole halfway through from the top, and a 1/16" hole from the left that intersected with the 1/4" hole. I got the "homebuilder's pitot/static" from ACS. It's the one with two pieces of 1/4" tube tack welded into a base. I drilled a 1/4" hole through the base behind the others, then ran a 8" or so length of 1/4" tube through it and into the top of the triangle. Situated it so that the triangle touched the bottom of the previous tubes, then buried the assembly in a peanut butter thick mix of micro. Let it set, sanded it to an "airfoilish" shape, and wrapped it in a 9oz layer of glass.
Works fine with my Dynon-100 AoA.

On Thursday, April 12, 2018 11:17 PM, GTH <gilles.thesee(at)free.fr> wrote:



--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: GTH <gilles.thesee(at)free.fr (gilles.thesee(at)free.fr)>

Hi all,

One of my building buddies just challenged me concerning the following

Pitot angle of attack (AOA) device

https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1121786

Of course 3D printing the device is the easiest part. But does anyone

here happen to have implemented, programmed, etc. an AOA indicator, and

with what success ?

BTW, some years ago I had the opportunity to make a study for such a

device based on differential pressure between upper and lower wing

surface. At the time the study involved a University wind tunnel,

hotwire profiles, several students, but nowadays my approach needs to be

much much "lower tech" as I no longer have access to such facilities.

Thanks for your inputs,

--

Best regards,

Gilles

http://contrails.free.fr

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user9253



Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1208
Location: Riley TWP Michigan

PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 6:10 am    Post subject: Re: Diy AOA, anyone ? Reply with quote

An AOA probe can be made using only a single pop rivet with the mandrel removed. Connect the rivet to the AOA sensor with Tygon tubing. The sensor will compare the pressure differential between the pitot tube and the AOA port (pop rivet). Vans Aircraft uses this rivet probe in the latest version (iS) of their RV-12. The picture shows where I located the AOA rivet port in my wing. I drilled the rivet hole at the point where the 30 degree line is tangent to the wing. Although Van's tested different locations and determined that the optimum location is slightly farther down and and aft. Exactly where, I do not know.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 6:24 am    Post subject: Diy AOA, anyone ? Reply with quote

Joe:
Guessing:  But, probably 3 hole diameters behind the high point (Max profile) of the wings profile.  Three diameters is a negative pressure point in open end resonance.
Barry

Quote:
 Although Van's tested different locations and determined that the optimum location is slightly farther down and and aft.  Exactly where, I do not know.

--------
Joe Gores




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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 6:45 am    Post subject: Diy AOA, anyone ? Reply with quote

How is “optimum” determined?
You would have to calibrate for different airspeed and AoAs and creative some kind of algorithm or lookup table, regardless of location, no?

On Apr 13, 2018, at 10:23, FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com (flyadive(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Joe:
Guessing: But, probably 3 hole diameters behind the high point (Max profile) of the wings profile. Three diameters is a negative pressure point in open end resonance.
Barry

Quote:
Although Van's tested different locations and determined that the optimum location is slightly farther down and and aft. Exactly where, I do not know.

--------
Joe Gores




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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 7:34 am    Post subject: Diy AOA, anyone ? Reply with quote

Hey Joe, 
Thanks for providing a KISS solution for a change!
No disrespect intended to any lister, but sometimes it seems (to this neophyte anyway) that the more complicated the solution, the better it is deemed?

Best...Bob Verwey

082 331 2727
[img]https://docs.google.com/uc?export=download&id=0B5d7rgAInTuTUUZsUjY4QmJsdVU&revid=0B5d7rgAInTuTdDJDaXRFZVh3b3lMa3FWL0s3MFdzc01YRlNvPQ[/img]



On 13 April 2018 at 16:10, user9253 <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)>

An AOA probe can be made using only a single pop rivet with the mandrel removed.  Connect the rivet to the AOA sensor with Tygon tubing.  The sensor will compare the pressure differential between the pitot tube and the AOA port (pop rivet).  Vans Aircraft uses this rivet probe in the latest version (iS) of their RV-12.  The picture shows where I located the AOA rivet port in my wing.  I drilled the rivet hole at the point where the 30 degree line is tangent to the wing.  Although Van's tested different locations and determined that the optimum location is slightly farther down and and aft.  Exactly where, I do not know.

--------
Joe Gores




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http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=479309#479309




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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 11:18 am    Post subject: Re: Diy AOA, anyone ? Reply with quote

Here is a link to the VansAirforce thread about AOA in the RV-12.
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=34040
I do not know where is the optimum point to measure air pressure. All I know is that I looked at the angle on Dynon's AOA probe and thought that 30 degrees looked about right. I drilled a hole and hooked up some tubing and it worked. Several other RV-12 builders followed my lead and they are all happy. When Van's came out with a new and improved version of the RV-12, they used my idea. But they did flight testing to determine the best location for the AOA port.
The AOA needs to be calibrated during flight by performing a series of stalls, with and without flaps. AOA is displayed on the EFIS screen. There is also an audio indication that starts out as tone pulses. As stall approaches, the tone pulses get closer and closer together until at stall, there is one solid tone.
A stall can occur at any airspeed depending on wing loading. A heavily load aircraft in a steep turn will stall at a much higher airspeed then when the plane is lightly loaded and flying straight. That is why many planes have stalled and crashed while in a traffic pattern. The pilot keeps the airspeed where he normally does, not taking into consideration the higher wing loading in a steep turn. A wing will always stall at the same AOA, regardless of wing loading. Now that I have AOA, I use that instead of airspeed. The FAA should mandate AOA and eliminate the requirement for airspeed indicators.
OK, I am ready to be flamed. LOL
For aircraft without an EFIS, a Dwyer Minihelic II 2-5002 Differential Pressure Gauge, Range 0-2.0"WC might work for a display, although I have never tried it. I would also add an audio pulsing tone.
To andymeyer, I think the pressure differential for AOA is about 2" of water. 0.57psi converts to 15.7 inches of water.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 1:19 pm    Post subject: Diy AOA, anyone ? Reply with quote

i use the airspeed indicator as an AoA indicator - you just have to mentally adjust the scale for weight and load factor. A bit like those airspeed indicators that have a sliding scale for true airspeed. My airspeed indicator has a sliding scale (in my head) for AoA.

On Apr 13, 2018, at 15:18, user9253 <fransew(at)gmail.com> wrote:



Here is a link to the VansAirforce thread about AOA in the RV-12.
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=34040
I do not know where is the optimum point to measure air pressure. All I know is that I looked at the angle on Dynon's AOA probe and thought that 30 degrees looked about right. I drilled a hole and hooked up some tubing and it worked. Several other RV-12 builders followed my lead and they are all happy. When Van's came out with a new and improved version of the RV-12, they used my idea. But they did flight testing to determine the best location for the AOA port.
The AOA needs to be calibrated during flight by performing a series of stalls, with and without flaps. AOA is displayed on the EFIS screen. There is also an audio indication that starts out as tone pulses. As stall approaches, the tone pulses get closer and closer together until at stall, there is one solid tone.
A stall can occur at any airspeed depending on wing loading. A heavily load aircraft in a steep turn will stall at a much higher airspeed then when the plane is lightly loaded and flying straight. That is why many planes have stalled and crashed while in a traffic pattern. The pilot keeps the airspeed where he normally does, not taking into consideration the higher wing loading in a steep turn. A wing will always stall at the same AOA, regardless of wing loading. Now that I have AOA, I use that instead of airspeed. The FAA should mandate AOA and eliminate the requirement for airspeed indicators.
OK, I am ready to be flamed. LOL
For aircraft without an EFIS, a Dwyer Minihelic II 2-5002 Differential Pressure Gauge, Range 0-2.0"WC might work for a display, although I have never tried it. I would also add an audio pulsing tone.
To andymeyer, I think the pressure differential for AOA is about 2" of water. 0.57psi converts to 15.7 inches of water.

--------
Joe Gores


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http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=479319#479319


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rickofudall



Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1314
Location: Udall, KS, USA

PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 3:02 pm    Post subject: Diy AOA, anyone ? Reply with quote

Here's an article one of the members of EAA Chapter 88 wrote for our newsletter a few years ago. Seems to be the same idea y'all are talking about.

Rick Girard
On Fri, Apr 13, 2018 at 4:18 PM, Alec Myers <alec(at)alecmyers.com (alec(at)alecmyers.com)> wrote:
Quote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Alec Myers <alec(at)alecmyers.com (alec(at)alecmyers.com)>

i use the airspeed indicator as an AoA indicator - you just have to mentally adjust the scale for weight and load factor. A bit like those airspeed indicators that have a sliding scale for true airspeed. My airspeed indicator has a sliding scale (in my head) for AoA.

On Apr 13, 2018, at 15:18, user9253 <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)>

Here is a link to the VansAirforce thread about AOA in the RV-12.
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=34040
I do not know where is the optimum point to measure air pressure.  All I know is that I looked at the angle on Dynon's AOA probe and thought that 30 degrees looked about right.  I drilled a hole and hooked up some tubing and it worked.  Several other RV-12 builders followed my lead and they are all happy.  When Van's came out with a new and improved version of the RV-12, they used my idea.  But they did flight testing to determine the best location for the AOA port. 
The AOA needs to be calibrated during flight by performing a series of stalls, with and without flaps.  AOA is displayed on the EFIS screen.  There is also an audio indication that starts out as tone pulses.  As stall approaches, the tone pulses get closer and closer together until at stall, there is one solid tone.
 A stall can occur at any airspeed depending on wing loading.  A heavily load aircraft in a steep turn will stall at a much higher airspeed then when the plane is lightly loaded and flying straight.  That is why many planes have stalled and crashed while in a traffic pattern.  The pilot keeps the airspeed where he normally does, not taking into consideration the higher wing loading in a steep turn.  A wing will always stall at the same AOA, regardless of wing loading.  Now that I have AOA, I use that instead of airspeed.  The FAA should mandate AOA and eliminate the requirement for airspeed indicators.
 OK, I am ready to be flamed.  LOL
For aircraft without an EFIS, a Dwyer Minihelic II 2-5002 Differential Pressure Gauge, Range 0-2.0"WC might work for a display, although I have never tried it.  I would also add an audio pulsing tone.
 To andymeyer, I think the pressure differential for AOA is about 2" of water.  0.57psi converts to 15.7 inches of water.

--------
Joe Gores




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http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=479319#479319











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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 3:01 pm    Post subject: Diy AOA, anyone ? Reply with quote

At 08:52 AM 4/12/2018, you wrote:
Quote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: GTH <gilles.thesee(at)free.fr>

Hi all,

One of my building buddies just challenged me concerning the following Pitot angle of attack (AOA) device

https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1121786

Of course 3D printing the device is the easiest part. But does anyone here happen to have implemented, programmed, etc. an AOA indicator, and with what success ?

BTW, some years ago I had the opportunity to make a study for such a device based on differential pressure between upper and lower wing surface. At the time the study involved a University wind tunnel, hotwire profiles, several students, but nowadays my approach needs to be much much "lower tech" as I no longer have access to such facilities.

Thanks for your inputs,

We had some discussions here on the List about
various AOA sensor/display options about 15 years
ago. During and since that time I'd collected some
articles on the topic which I posted here

https://goo.gl/5XdU1y

One of the articles cloned a sensor mast that
was popular with Piper as I recall. Don't recall
the manufacturer off hand.

[img]cid:7.1.0.9.0.20180415175131.0642aaa8(at)aeroelectric.com.0[/img]

This probe was mounted under a wing on an inspection
plate. Pretty easy to build. I recall that I offered to carve
one out for a builder . . . but he never took me up on it.

Something I've found quite useful before launching
on any new development effort is to explore history
of the practice. Patents are a useful place to lay foundations
for refining the next generation . . .





Bob . . .


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:04 am    Post subject: Diy AOA, anyone ? Reply with quote

Le 16/04/2018 01:01, Robert L. Nuckolls, III a crit:
Quote:

We had some discussions here on the List about
various AOA sensor/display options about 15 years
ago. During and since that time I'd collected some
articles on the topic which I posted here

https://goo.gl/5XdU1y

One of the articles cloned a sensor mast that
was popular with Piper as I recall. Don't recall
the manufacturer off hand.

Hi Bob and all,

A big thank you for your inputs, docs etc. !
We now have to do our homework. Nevertheless the project is still at the
initial build stage, and we are still in the process of (slowly)
reducing drag on our present 4-seater, so it may be some time til we are
ready for the AOA flight tests.

Thank you everyone !

--
Best regards,
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
http://lapierre.skunkworks.free.fr


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