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Regulator set point

 
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echristley(at)att.net
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 5:41 pm    Post subject: Regulator set point Reply with quote

I've switched to using a LiFePO battery. I accept the limited power reserve it has in the case of a generator issue, because I'm not a big fan of really long flight legs and the weight benefit for my Corvair equipped 601XL is exceptional. That being said, more reserve is a good thing. My Kubota regulator for the PM generator is set at 13.8V. There was some talk a few years ago of modifying the regulator to a higher set point. How would this feat be accomplished? I'd like to set it between 14.3 and 14.5.

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Location: Riley TWP Michigan

PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 9:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Regulator set point Reply with quote

The easy way is to replace the regulator. Search eBay for part number AM101406. I think that the only difference between the search results is the price.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 7:43 am    Post subject: Regulator set point Reply with quote

Thanks Joe, but how are you able to tell that these regulators have a higher set point?


On Tuesday, March 20, 2018 1:43 AM, user9253 <fransew(at)gmail.com> wrote:



--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)>

The easy way is to replace the regulator. Search eBay for part number AM101406. I think that the only difference between the search results is the price.

--------

Joe Gores

Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=478752#478752

http://www.matron===================

http://wiki.matronic=======================
</; &nb -->


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user9253



Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1206
Location: Riley TWP Michigan

PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 8:54 am    Post subject: Re: Regulator set point Reply with quote

I have a John Deere regulator in my RV-12. The system voltage is now a half volt higher than when using the Ducati regulator. Not saying the regulator that you buy will have a higher voltage, but for $25 it is worth a try. The Ducati regulators fail so often that some pilots carry a spare. The important thing is to mount them with heat conductive paste to help carry the heat away. Heat is the enemy of electronics.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:00 am    Post subject: Regulator set point Reply with quote

I've had two of those PM rectifier regulators consistently put out 14.4
volts (+/- 0.1)
Mine were purchased directly from John Deere although I doubt that
matters other than doubling or tripling the price.
Ken

On 20/03/2018 11:42 AM, Ernest Christlike wrote:
Quote:
Thanks Joe, but how are you able to tell that these regulators have a
higher set point?


On Tuesday, March 20, 2018 1:43 AM, user9253 <fransew(at)gmail.com> wrote:

<mailto:fransew(at)gmail.com>>

The easy way is to replace the regulator. Search eBay for part number
AM101406. I think that the only difference between the search results
is the price.

--------
Joe Gores


Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=478752#478752

http://www.matron===================
http://wiki.matronic=======================



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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 4:28 pm    Post subject: Regulator set point Reply with quote

At 08:40 PM 3/19/2018, you wrote:
Quote:
I've switched to using a LiFePO battery. I accept the limited power reserve it has in the case of a generator issue, because I'm not a big fan of really long flight legs and the weight benefit for my Corvair equipped 601XL is exceptional. That being said, more reserve is a good thing. My Kubota regulator for the PM generator is set at 13.8V. There was some talk a few years ago of modifying the regulator to a higher set point. How would this feat be accomplished? I'd like to set it between 14.3 and 14.5.


If it's a potted assembly, like many small pm rectifier/
regulators are, then adjusting the setpoint is not practical
and pretty much impossible. If it can be disassembled and
the parts are accessible, it MAY be possible to make
some adjustment to the voltage control circuits.

Actually, you might consider leaving it at 13.8 . . . if
indeed it really runs at that value or a tad higher.
See https://goo.gl/vCd59M

Note that the LiFePO4 cells will achieve 100% charge
or very close to it with a charging level of 3.4v per
cell (13.6 volts on the bus). But as the experiment
shows, there is a tipping point at about 3.3 volts
per cell that severely limits energy replacement
in the LiFePO4 cells. So if you're running 13.8, you
can probably leave it alone.



Bob . . .


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echristley(at)att.net
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:39 am    Post subject: Regulator set point Reply with quote

That's some powerful information, Bob.

I'm not in a position to experiment on this point, but these tests would indicate that a lead-acid and LiiFePO battery could live together. The CG challenged builder could put a small (less than $100) LiFePO on the firewall to get cranking amps, and then locate an AGM in the tail for endurance loads. With the necessity to carry cranking loads removed, a 14 to 16 AWG wire could replace the 00 AWG starter cable running the entire length of the airframe.
Mixing battery chemistries is generally discouraged for good reason, but this mix could be beneficial to a lot of builders.

On Tuesday, March 20, 2018 8:29 PM, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:



At 08:40 PM 3/19/2018, you wrote:
Quote:
I've switched to using a LiFePO battery. I accept the limited power reserve it has in the case of a generator issue, because I'm not a big fan of really long flight legs and the weight benefit for my Corvair equipped 601XL is exceptional. That being said, more reserve is a good thing. My Kubota regulator for the PM generator is set at 13.8V. There was some talk a few years ago of modifying the regulator to a higher set point. How would this feat be accomplished? I'd like to set it between 14.3 and 14.5.

If it's a potted assembly, like many small pm rectifier/ regulators are, then adjusting the setpoint is not practical and pretty much impossible. If it can be disassembled and the parts are accessible, it MAY be possible to make some adjustment to the voltage control circuits. Actually, you might consider leaving it at 13.8 . . . if indeed it really runs at that value or a tad higher. See https://goo.gl/vCd59M Note that the LiFePO4 cells will achieve 100% charge or very close to it with a charging level of 3.4v per cell (13.6 volts on the bus). But as the experiment shows, there is a tipping point at about 3.3 volts per cell that severely limits energy replacement in the LiFePO4 cells. So if you're running 13.8, you can probably leave it alone.
Bob . . .


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ceengland7(at)gmail.com
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:07 am    Post subject: Regulator set point Reply with quote

Don't forget that the wire still must carry both charge and discharge currents. A long run of even #14 could have significant voltage drop on a 12V system.

On 3/21/2018 9:38 AM, Ernest Christley wrote:

Quote:
That's some powerful information, Bob. 



I'm not in a position to experiment on this point, but these tests would indicate that a lead-acid and LiiFePO battery could live together.  The CG challenged builder could put a small (less than $100) LiFePO on the firewall to get cranking amps, and then locate an AGM in the tail for endurance loads.  With the necessity to carry cranking loads removed, a 14 to 16 AWG wire could replace the 00 AWG starter cable running the entire length of the airframe.


Mixing battery chemistries is generally discouraged for good reason, but this mix could be beneficial to a lot of builders.



On Tuesday, March 20, 2018 8:29 PM, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com) wrote:



At 08:40 PM 3/19/2018, you wrote:
Quote:
I've switched to using a LiFePO battery.  I accept the limited power reserve it has in the case of a generator issue, because I'm not a big fan of really long flight legs  and the weight benefit for my Corvair equipped 601XL is exceptional.  That being said, more reserve is a good thing.  My Kubota regulator for the PM generator is set at 13.8V.  There was some talk a few years ago of modifying the regulator to a higher set point.  How would this feat be accomplished?  I'd like to set it between 14.3 and 14.5.

 If it's a potted assembly, like many small pm rectifier/  regulators are, then adjusting the setpoint is not practical  and pretty much impossible. If it can be disassembled and  the parts are accessible, it MAY be possible to make  some adjustment to the voltage control circuits.  Actually, you might consider leaving it at 13.8 . . . if  indeed it really runs at that value or a tad higher.  See https://goo.gl/vCd59M  Note that the LiFePO4 cells will achieve 100% charge  or very close to it with a charging level of 3.4v per  cell (13.6 volts on the bus). But as the experiment  shows, there is a tipping point at about 3.3 volts  per cell that severely limits energy replacement  in the LiFePO4 cells. So if you're running 13.8, you  can probably leave it alone.   Bob . . .









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PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:08 am    Post subject: Regulator set point Reply with quote

At 09:38 AM 3/21/2018, you wrote:
Quote:
That's some powerful information, Bob.

I'm not in a position to experiment on this point,
but these tests would indicate that a lead-acid and
LiiFePO battery could live together.

Sure . . . this has always been the case
in terms of normal performance. I.e.
crank the engine, support all loads with
an altenrator including recharge of the
battery and then shut down leaving all
batteries fully charged.

A 14.2 volt set-point has been the touchstone
for operating lead-acid batteries since day-one,
that same voltage is quite acceptable for
LiFePO4.

Lithium products that do no contain smart
battery management systems are vulnerable
to individual cell damage due to unbalanced
recharging and cell destruction if discharged
below some tipping point . . . generally pegged
at 2.8 volts per cell (11.2v bus). The lead-acid
battery will continue to deliver useful energy
below this value . . . but not for long.

Assuming that you limit endurance discharging
of the 'barefooted' lithium battery to 11.2
then you can essentially tap ALL chemical energy
on board without risking damage to the lithium
product. But then, if the alternator is TU
and you're boring holes in a very dark sky over
unfriendly terrain, then the health and well-being
of your lithium battery is, perhaps, of little
concern.

Quote:
The CG challenged builder could put a small (less than $100) LiFePO on the firewall to get cranking amps, and then locate an AGM in the tail for endurance loads. With the necessity to carry cranking loads removed, a 14 to 16 AWG wire could replace the 00 AWG starter cable running the entire length of the airframe.

Nobody needs 00AWG wire in a light plane
for any reason EXCEPT comoposit seaplanes with big
batteries in the nose for weight/balance
concerns and engines high and aft on pylons.

Everybody else is in good shape with 2AWG
cranking feeders. For the scenario you propose,
I wouldn't drop the rear battery feeder lower
than 10AWG and I would protect that feeder
with a fat maxifuse on the order of 60A.
Wiring up front for all other cranking circuits
could be 4 or even 6AWG.

The fact that the lithium product is up front
on short a short leash of fat wires insures
lower voltage drops under normal charge/discharge
cycles making your 13.8v set-point less
problematic. It's worth a try.


Quote:
Mixing battery chemistries is generally discouraged for good reason, but this mix could be beneficial to a lot of builders.

Every chemistry has it's own 'happy-space'
boundaries where maximized performance
can be exploited. Mixed chemistries can
offer considerable overlap of happy-space
where reliable operation can be achieved
but with tighter boundaries. Lithium
products with agile BMS can be intermixed
with lead-acid with relative impunity.



Bob . . .


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:11 am    Post subject: Regulator set point Reply with quote

At 10:07 AM 3/21/2018, you wrote:
Quote:
Don't forget that the wire still must carry both charge and discharge currents. A long run of even #14 could have significant voltage drop on a 12V system.

Bingo. Give the man a Kewpie Doll!


Bob . . .


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:23 am    Post subject: Regulator set point Reply with quote

I would like to mention: check any danger of high currents if a LiFePO4
battery (13.2V) is directly parallelled with a lead-acid battery (12.6V).


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 2:41 pm    Post subject: Regulator set point Reply with quote

At 11:23 AM 3/21/2018, you wrote:
Quote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jan de Jong <jan_de_jong(at)casema.nl>

I would like to mention: check any danger of high currents if a LiFePO4 battery (13.2V) is directly parallelled with a lead-acid battery (12.6V).

I just measured an SVLA resting voltage of 13.1 volts
while my EarthX is 13.4 volts. When connected together,
there WAS a circulating current on the order of 400mA.

In an operational scenario where both batteries are
floated on a 13.8 to 14.2 volts bus, I suspect
the circulating currents between the two will be
small in the event of alternator failure. If one
sets 2.8v per cell as minimum discharge voltage, this
translates to 11.2 volts which corresponds to a 90%
plus depletion of the SVLVA as well.


Bob . . .


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 3:08 pm    Post subject: Regulator set point Reply with quote

There might only be a concern then if an architecture allowed parallelling after serious discharge of the lead-acid battery?
Jan de Jong
On 3/22/2018 11:40 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
Quote:
At 11:23 AM 3/21/2018, you wrote:
Quote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jan de Jong <jan_de_jong(at)casema.nl> (jan_de_jong(at)casema.nl)

I would like to mention: check any danger of high currents if a LiFePO4 battery (13.2V) is directly parallelled with a lead-acid battery (12.6V).

I just measured an SVLA resting voltage of 13.1 volts
while my EarthX is 13.4 volts. When connected together,
there WAS a circulating current on the order of 400mA.

In an operational scenario where both batteries are
floated on a 13.8 to 14.2 volts bus, I suspect
the circulating currents between the two will be
small in the event of alternator failure. If one
sets 2.8v per cell as minimum discharge voltage, this
translates to 11.2 volts which corresponds to a 90%
plus depletion of the SVLVA as well.


Bob . . .


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