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IO-540 Engine Question

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jim(at)CombsFive.Com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 4:59 pm Post subject: IO-540 Engine Question

I have a used IO-540 engine and today I removed the intake / induction tubes that run from the sides of the oil sump up to the cylinders.  



Down at the oil sump there is a flexible hose that joins the metal tubes together.  After removing the tubes I noticed that  three of the six stubs coming out of the oil sump were loose and could be moved in and out about an 1/8 inch.  I talked to a local EAA member and he said the tubes were "rolled" in order to slightly expand them and hold them in place.  



So the questions are:



(1) Do I need to get / borrow a tool to roll these again?  (2) Can this be done while the sump is attached?

(3) What about using a sealant (Fuel tank sealant comes to mind) to seal up the tubes to the oil sump vs "rolling" them again?



Also, Where is a good place to order gaskets?  I would like to replace the valve cover gaskets while I am cleaning up the outside.  Need new cylinder intake gaskets as well.



I have ordered manuals for the engine from Lycoming but they are not here yet.  I need to get part numbers.



Thanks, 



Jim Combs

N40192

Tdawson(at)avidyne.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 5:13 pm Post subject: IO-540 Engine Question

Aircraft Specialties has lots of parts for Lycoming and Continental, including Gaskets . . .



Or even Spruce has the basic ones . . .



TDT

40025

--

rvbuilder(at)sausen.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 5:31 pm Post subject: IO-540 Engine Question

Jim,



  I'm guessing when he said rolled he meant beaded.  I'm not really

familiar with the construction of the induction tubes but if they are

beaded they really should be tight if the hose clamp is in the right

location.  



  One of the list A&P types like John are bound to jump in and give you

a qualified answer though.



Michael Sausen

-10 #352 Fuselage

Do not archive



--

jim(at)CombsFive.Com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 6:28 pm Post subject: IO-540 Engine Question

Yep, beaded may be the correct term.  The tube has what appears to be a grove on the inside.  As if a tool was turned inside to force a bead to form pressed against the oil sump.  



I am not familiar with the construction of the sump itself.    I would love to know why they placed the intake manifold internal to the oil sump.  Heat the inlet air? or cool the oil?  The engineer in me would really like ot know.



Aircraft Spruce and Specialties does have the valve cover gaskets.



Thanks, Jim C



Do Not Archive

============================================================






Jim,



  I'm guessing when he said rolled he meant beaded.  I'm not really

familiar with the construction of the induction tubes but if they are

beaded they really should be tight if the hose clamp is in the right

location.  



  One of the list A&P types like John are bound to jump in and give you

a qualified answer though.



Michael Sausen

-10 #352 Fuselage

Do not archive



--

pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 9:06 pm Post subject: IO-540 Engine Question

jim(at)CombsFive.Com wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



Yep, beaded may be the correct term.



No, rolled is.  
	




 	  Quote: 	
		    The tube has what appears to be a grove on the inside.  As if a tool was turned inside to force a bead to form pressed against the oil sump.



Bingo!  The tool expands the tube so it seals.  Totally inelegant 
	


solution to the problem, if you ask me.  That tube is a great source of 

intake leaks.  



 	  Quote: 	
		  I am not familiar with the construction of the sump itself.



It's cast aluminum. 
	




 	  Quote: 	
		      I would love to know why they placed the intake manifold internal to the oil sump.  Heat the inlet air? or cool the oil?  The engineer in me would really like ot know.



The idea was to cool the oil.  In doing so, they heat the incoming air, 
	


making it less dense, and robbing you of a little HP.  Might even be a 

lot of HP.  I dunno which!



 	  Quote: 	
		  Aircraft Spruce and Specialties does have the valve cover gaskets.



If you getnew gaskets, pay the piper and get the red silicone gaskets. 
	


 You'll never buy another set as long as you don't hog down on the valve 

cover screws.

Linn

[quote]

Thanks, Jim C



Do Not Archive

============================================================






Jim,



  I'm guessing when he said rolled he meant beaded.  I'm not really

familiar with the construction of the induction tubes but if they are

beaded they really should be tight if the hose clamp is in the right

location.  



  One of the list A&P types like John are bound to jump in and give you

a qualified answer though.



Michael Sausen

-10 #352 Fuselage

Do not archive



--

Tdawson(at)avidyne.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 07, 2006 4:02 am Post subject: IO-540 Engine Question

"If you getnew gaskets, pay the piper and get the red silicone gaskets.

 You'll never buy another set as long as you don't hog down on the valve

cover screws.

Linn"



Piper sells the silicone gaskets?   : )



TDT

do not archive

--

Rick S.

Joined: 12 Feb 2006
Posts: 347
Location: Las Vegas

Posted: Fri Jul 07, 2006 1:47 pm Post subject: IO-540 Engine Question

Lol....good catch on paying the Piper.



Rick S.

40185



do not archive

_________________
Rick S.
RV-10
40185

cfranz10121(at)chartermi.
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 07, 2006 3:54 pm Post subject: IO-540 Engine Question

Jim,



	The intake tubes are swaged into the crankcase.  There is a tool

that can re-swage the induction tubes, improving the retention, but an

application of proseal around the joint will help prevent induction leaks.

When I rebuilt my O-360 I found a similar condition on two of the four

tubes.  My local Lycon shop fixed the problem for about twenty bucks.  Carl

Franz  N410FS (reserved), N215CF RV-6 flying



--

Tim_Lewis(at)msm.umr.edu
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 07, 2006 5:03 pm Post subject: IO-540 Engine Question

When I rebuilt my IO-540 I had several loose induction tubes.  My IA 

said to send it to Divco for repair.  As I recall, I had to replace one 

tube and get 3 tightened so they wouldn't rotate (and leak air).  Cost, 

including inspection, repair, part, and return shipping, was about $180.



Tim



Carl Franz wrote:

[quote] 

 

 Jim,

 

 	The intake tubes are swaged into the crankcase.  There is a tool

 that can re-swage the induction tubes, improving the retention, but an

 application of proseal around the joint will help prevent induction leaks.

 When I rebuilt my O-360 I found a similar condition on two of the four

 tubes.  My local Lycon shop fixed the problem for about twenty bucks.  Carl

 Franz  N410FS (reserved), N215CF RV-6 flying

 

 --

jim(at)CombsFive.Com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 07, 2006 5:28 pm Post subject: IO-540 Engine Question

I have had enough feedback to understand this is a fairly common problem on Lycoming engines.  



So I am sitting here thinking:



50% of these swagged, rolled, beaded interfaces have failed.



I can repeat the same procedure that has proven to perform in a very poor manner, hoping to "fix" the problem.  



What are the odds of the problem showing up again.  pretty high.



What are the affects.  One or more lean cylinders.  



So I thought, why not go and talk to 3M or Loctite.  I spent an hour on the phone today with an applications engineer at Loctite.  They have a 294, an anaerobic material that is the consistancy of water.  It will wick in between the parts and bond them together.  It has a 450 def F max working temperature and will displace any oil.  He suggested using a Primer N (7649) to prep the interfaces.  Even the primer will wick into the joint.  



Clearly just rebeading the parts will not garantee a 100% fix.  



I will talk to 3M on Monday and see what they recommend.  



Given the availability of some really good adhesives, why not fix the problem once and for all?  



RTV, JB Weld, proseal are just surface treatments and may just make things worse if they don't adhere to the surfaces.



In my mind this is a bad design with a process that has a really bad track record.  Today we may have the means to correct it once and for all.



Anyone tried this?



Jim Combs

N312F

40192



do not archive

cfranz10121(at)chartermi.
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 2:55 pm Post subject: IO-540 Engine Question

Jim,

	The rolling tool is used to swage the tubes in place.  Basically

a mandrel with three rollers that are expanded in the tube while

twisting the tool to enlarge the intake tube enough to be retained by

the crank case groove surrounding the tube. So, yes, you need to borrow

the tool in order to expand the stubs where they exit the case.

--

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