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RV10 Window Junction Cracks - Any Advise?

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steffco1(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 8:01 pm Post subject: RV10 Window Junction Cracks - Any Advise?

Today I asked Van's regarding cracking between the  fiberglass window frames and the Plexiglas.

  

 Van's told me that they were not aware that this is  an issue. I saw this cracking for myself on several RV10's at Sun in Fun.  

  

 I am getting close to installing my windows, has  anyone devised an alternative method to help prevent the cracking?

  

 It appears to me that this anomaly it is due to the  different expansion and contracting properties of the fiberglass and Plexiglas.  

  

 I am planning on having a 1/16 gap between the  plexi and window frames, install windows with the Weld-10. Next I am planning on  installing 2 inch fiberglass tape around the perimeter of the windows  overlapping the junction...Next fill and sand and fair into the fuselage lid and  or doors...

  

 Any thoughts.....Mark

  

 Mark Steffensen

 Atlanta GA

  

 RV8A Sold

 RV10 Soon

Rick S.

Joined: 12 Feb 2006
Posts: 347
Location: Las Vegas

Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 8:21 pm Post subject: RV10 Window Junction Cracks - Any Advise?

Mark,

  

 Mat be too late for you but Davis McNeill provided this tidbit that is uesed with grat sucess on Glasairs...hopefullu it will help others if you can't use it.

  

 Rick S.

 40185

  

 As provided by David:

  

  

Although the procedure takes only about an hour to accomplish per window, setup and planning is substantially more.. I recommend that you do one window to get the procs correct and plan to do the windshield on a day by itself.  

 

  

(0) tape off the inside and outside flange area of the window using 3M Fineline (.5 width) 

(1) then signstrip blue on the center areas to protect the inside and outside of the window . Be generous when painting it on as this makes it easy to pull off. 

(2) sand the inside/outside edges of the window in the area of the flange to roughen the glass for adhesion. 

(3) sand the flanges of the lid; CLEAN ALL SANDED EDGES WITH ACETONE 

(4) prepare a set of aluminum "fingers" . Strips of .080 1" by 3" ; with a slight bend in the center. one end gets a #30 hole and the other is adequately taped. each is numbered. See the picture. 

(5) Trim the window to fit the frame and temporarily hold in place with the NUMBERED "fingers". Clecoes should be place about .50" outside the window. Drill #30 only through the external layer; NOT THROUGH THE LID. RETAPE OFF THE EDGES 3M FINELINE TAPE .  

(6) prepare a mixture of epoxy with chopped fibers and cabosil. Consistency should be peanut butter. Potlife should plan to be 30-40 minutes. We refrigerated it to further slow the cure. 

(7) putty the lid flanges, wet the window flanges with a small amount of catalyzed epoxy and place window in frame; holding in place with "fingers" at the preplanned locations. 

( inside person should be wiping excess putty away with a 50-50 mixture of mineral spirirts and acetone; outside person should be smoothing putty on outside flange. excess will be sanded off later. then PULL THE TAPES BEFORE IT CURES. 

(9) allow to cure 24 hours. 

(10) Inside lid , flange should be finished . If rough, tape glass and sand lightly. 

(11) outside the lid, RETAPE the edge at the flange line, then cover the flange with two 1" layers of glass (E-7782?). (Note this was the Glastar procedure.) Remember to pull the tape before the layered glass sets up.  The windscreen on the RV10 requires a different layering of glass on the aluminum. 

(12) Retape the edge , then sand and fill external flange area for paint. The sanding can feather into the edge of the tape.  

(13) when painted , paint should cover the flange. 

(14) MUST BE DONE BEFORE THE MIXTURE CURES. If you accidentally get epoxy on the Plexiglas during the process, it can be safely removed using a clean cloth and the 50-50 mixture of mineral spirits and acetone. Have it handy. 

(15) 50-50 mixture is also good for removing any signstrip that does not come off when finally removing the protective covering before flight.

_________________
Rick S.
RV-10
40185

Tim(at)MyRV10.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 3:47 am Post subject: RV10 Window Junction Cracks - Any Advise?

I think it's amazing that the response you got was that they

were not aware.  I haven't so far seen a -10 that doesn't have

at least a little cracking.  Mine isn't nearly as bad as

some I've seen, but it's still fairly new at 84 approx. hours

and only a couple days out in the hot sun.  Maybe it'll

get worse, maybe it won't.  But it's definitely a minor

issue.  There are those that think weld-on isn't the

stuff to use, and there are those who think that you should

lay light e-glass over the joint.  I'm not overly disappointed

in how mine turned out, so I'm happy with the per-plans way

so far, but, if you can improve it without causing any

other issues, it's probably worth doing something else.

I'll leave the tips on that to those who've done something

else...but I think you're on the right track.



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

do not archive

Mark & Gina Steffensen wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Today I asked Van's regarding cracking between the fiberglass window 

 frames and the Plexiglas.

  

 Van's told me that they were not aware that this is an issue. I saw this 

 cracking for myself on several RV10's at Sun in Fun.

  

 I am getting close to installing my windows, has anyone devised an 

 alternative method to help prevent the cracking?

  

 It appears to me that this anomaly it is due to the different expansion 

 and contracting properties of the fiberglass and Plexiglas.

  

 I am planning on having a 1/16 gap between the plexi and window frames, 

 install windows with the Weld-10. Next I am planning on installing 2 

 inch fiberglass tape around the perimeter of the windows overlapping the 

 junction...Next fill and sand and fair into the fuselage lid and or doors...

  

 Any thoughts.....Mark

  

 Mark Steffensen

 Atlanta GA

  

 RV8A Sold

 RV10 Soon

LarryRosen

Joined: 16 Jan 2006
Posts: 415
Location: Medford, NJ

Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 4:55 am Post subject: RV10 Window Junction Cracks - Any Advise?

Another cosmetic solution is to add some pin striping at the window 

junction per Vic Syracuse as see here 

<http://lrosen.nerv10.com/Construct/SunNFun_2006/Vic%20RV10/slides/2006-04-07-SnF-17.html>.  

Not a cure but it does hide the cracks.



-- 



Larry Rosen

RV-10 #356

http://lrosen.nerv10.com

_________________
Larry Rosen
#40356
N205EN (reserved)
<http>

dlm46007(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 6:56 am Post subject: RV10 Window Junction Cracks - Any Advise?

Several things I would add to the previous message.  Glassing the windows in requires at least two people. One on the inside to clear  the excess and one on the outside to clear the excess insert the clecoes.  Additionally it helps to have some Teflon release cloth to place over the edges  to create a nice matte finish, absorb excess and a nice smooth surface for  further sanding.

 [quote]   ---

dlm46007(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 6:57 am Post subject: RV10 Window Junction Cracks - Any Advise?

Also if anyone wants to see the finished product,  my Glastar N48007 will be parked in the homebuilt area Thursday morning through  Saturday night at OSH. 

 [quote]   ---

rvbuilder(at)sausen.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 7:30 am Post subject: RV10 Window Junction Cracks - Any Advise?

Couple of things.  Anyone consider using Sikaflex.  It’s very popular with the rest of the RV crowd for bonding the canopy with the frame and would be easier to work with.  Could you use regular Dacron peel-ply rather than Teflon cloth?  Don’t know if that would end up releasing or not. 

   

Michael Sausen 

RV-10 #352 Working on Fuselage 

Do Not Archive 

Recent RV-10 Build Activity 

 

   

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of David McNeill

Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2006 9:54 AM

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: RV10 Window Junction Cracks - Any Advise?



 

   

Several things I would add to the previous message. Glassing the windows in requires at least two people. One on the inside to clear the excess and one on the outside to clear the excess insert the clecoes. Additionally it helps to have some Teflon release cloth to place over the edges to create a nice matte finish, absorb excess and a nice smooth surface for further sanding.

 [quote]  

---

rv10builder(at)bellsouth.
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 4:37 pm Post subject: RV10 Window Junction Cracks - Any Advise?

David,



Where can I find the "picture(s)" of the process?



Brian

#40308 canopy

David McNeill wrote:



[quote] Also if anyone wants to see the finished product, my Glastar N48007 

 will be parked in the homebuilt area Thursday morning through Saturday 

 night at OSH.



     ---

lcaune(at)cablelan.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 5:11 pm Post subject: RV10 Window Junction Cracks - Any Advise?

We had a similar problem working on the Sikorsky S76 tailboom.  It  

had bondo in all the seams and always cracked the paint.  Our  

solution was to dig out all of the brittle bondo and run a bead of  

Pro Seal aka PRC which is much more flexible and sticks like snot to  

a blanket.  The new paint job looked great for many tears.  Pro Seal  

is also a good base for paint, especially the good flexible types  

like Endura or PPG.



Len Aune  40381

JSMcGrew(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 10:49 pm Post subject: RV10 Window Junction Cracks - Any Advise?

After struggling with 4 windows and getting not so attractive fillets, I am considering using Sikaflex for the windscreen. A friend of mine used it for his RV-8 and it is very strong. Sikaflex also has a bit of flex when it is dry and it is so easy to work with - mask the edges with electrical tape for nice sharp edges. You don't have to worry about it skinning over and trapping your tape before you pull it off. And based on it's durability when used on boats exposed to continuous salt water and sun it appears it will last. Just one more option...

  

 Incidentally, I flew N220RV today for some transition training with Mike Seager. Maybe I missed something, but I didn't notice any window cracking on it. More importantly, the -10 flew beautifully. I am even more happy with my decision to build one after today.  I certainly learned a lot and I'm looking forward to flying my own. The take off and landing technique is a bit different from what I've been taught in a Cherokee. I highly recommend spending the time and money to fly with Mike.

  

 -Jim

 40134 - Doors/Windows/FW forward/Instrument panel/Wiring/Closing up wings...

  

 In a message dated 6/14/2006 8:41:36 AM Pacific Standard Time, rvbuilder(at)sausen.net writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		   

Couple of things.  Anyone consider using Sikaflex.  Itâ€™s very popular with the rest of the RV crowd for bonding the canopy with the frame and would be easier to work with.  Could you use regular Dacron peel-ply rather than Teflon cloth?  Donâ€™t know if that would end up releasing or not. 

   

Michael Sausen 

RV-10 #352 Working on Fuselage 

Do Not Archive 

Recent RV-10 Build Activity

Rick S.

Joined: 12 Feb 2006
Posts: 347
Location: Las Vegas

Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 5:23 am Post subject: RV10 Window Junction Cracks - Any Advise?

Proseal?



Is that stuff easy to work with? And where can you buy it?    

PLEASE DON'T ANSWER!!



Rick S.

40185

Wiring, Wiring , Wiring



do not archive

_________________
Rick S.
RV-10
40185

johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 7:50 pm Post subject: RV10 Window Junction Cracks - Any Advise?

This subject was addresses several (many) months ago and should be in

the archives.  The Lancair (plastic) planes have structural cracking in

the composite where two uniquely different substrate meet.  The rates of

expansion and contraction are different.  The VANS approach of mixing

the matrix resin does not transfer structural forces between the two

materials well.  The 10 has significantly more composite than any kit

before it.  In the case of the Lancairs it is at the wing fairing

fillet, the windshield fillet and obviously where two materials mate.

Flox or other structural fibers are needed.  It is common place with

micro balloons and thickening agents.  



The good news is that reality did not take 24 to 36 months to show

itself.  I have pictures to support the premise and technical material

available to those still building.  Contact me offline.  Thank goodness

you did not invest 24-28 thousand in a custom paint job before

encountering this characteristic. I can share the pain.



John Cox - $00.02



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