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pchristensen10(at)austin.
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 Posted: Thu May 26, 2011 8:10 am Post subject: ethanol |
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Here is what I got from Portable Fuel Systems;
"Hi Pete,
Thank you for your interest in PortableFuelSystems.com!
The whole process is controlled by a microcontroller with custom firmware, custom sensors, and is optimized to allow for various (and dynamic) settle times based on the water content remaining after the separation process is complete. After the process is complete, we utilize various traps and water block filters to remove the suspended water to a level that is less than what will be absorbed from the atmosphere.
In the dry climate here in Arizona, I have noticed no water in the fuel system resulting from the use of the separator. This is much better than I was getting from the local pumps.
If you have any more questions, please feel free to contact me directly!
Nick
Nick Myers
Vice President/CTO
Take the gas station where you need it!
(480) 639-3140
nmyers(at)portablefuelsystems.com (nmyers(at)portablefuelsystems.com)
www.PortableFuelSystems.com"
[quote][b]
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rickofudall
Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA
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| Posted: Thu May 26, 2011 8:22 am Post subject: ethanol |
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Thom, Somehow I missed giving credit to Ed Anderson who had the experience, I only published it in "The Beacon". My apologies if I mislead anyone. Ed contributes to the RV and Aeroelectric forums here on Matronics.
Rick
On Thu, May 26, 2011 at 8:15 AM, Thom Riddle <riddletr(at)gmail.com (riddletr(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "Thom Riddle" <riddletr(at)gmail.com (riddletr(at)gmail.com)>
Rick,
Thanks for your fire story. Glad that you had a very cheap learning experience. Could have been disastrous.
That is the first actual case of fire from static discharge I've heard of using plastic cans for filling an aircraft tank. I use a 15 gallon storage tank and hand pump but have been neglecting grounding it to the airframe due to sheer laziness. I will be grounding from now on, without fail.
--------
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)
Kolb Slingshot SS-021
Jabiru 2200A #1574
Tennessee Prop 64x32
Truth is what stands the test of experience.
- Albert Einstein
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Mk IIIC
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grahamsingleton(at)btinte
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| Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 1:02 am Post subject: ethanol |
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Thom
there was a fire refueling a Europa after a long flight on a hot dry day. Plastic can, part plastic funnel and just at the end of emptying the can. N Germany about ten years ago.
,My guess was a spark from the metal breather outlet to the metal part of the funnel. Pipe from tank to breather top was plastic too so droplets rushing up the pipe in the air stream would tend to pick up charge. Funnel was grounded by the man's hand.
Graham
From: Thom Riddle <riddletr(at)gmail.com>
To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, 26 May, 2011 14:15:55
Subject: Re: ethanol
--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "Thom Riddle" <riddletr(at)gmail.com (riddletr(at)gmail.com)>
Rick,
Thanks for your fire story. Glad that you had a very cheap learning experience. Could have been disastrous.
That is the first actual case of fire from static discharge I've heard of using plastic cans for filling an aircraft tank. I use a 15 gallon storage tank and hand pump but have been neglecting grounding it to the airframe due to sheer laziness. I will be grounding from now on, without fail.
--------
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)
Kolb Slingshot SS-021
Jabiru 2200A #1574
Tennessee Prop 64x32
Truth is what stands the test of experience.
- Albert Einstein
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.//www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List" target="_blank">http://w--> http://for - List Contribution Web Site -http://www.matronic====================
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Float Flyr
Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland
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| Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 2:42 pm Post subject: ethanol |
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When washing gas you should let it settle at least.... emphasis on the word “Least” twenty minutes before siphoning off the gas. The other thing is with ethanol in your fuel the water is still there you just don’t see it because it’s in a phase relationship with the gas.
Noel
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Pete Christensen
Sent: May 25, 2011 12:07 PM
To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: ethanol
What I have found in washing the alcohol from my gasoline is that a small amount of settling occurs in the tank while the plane is sitting. I drain my gascolator before and after each flight. The gascolator bowl has started to rust and I plan to clean it up and coat the bowl with Kreem. I discontinued using washed gas over the winter since my plane sat more. I may try washing my gas twice to see if this stops the settlement.
Pete
On 2/7/2011 8:23 PM, Noel Loveys wrote:
If you really, really have to fly on ethanol fuel then you have already broken the first cardinal rule. Never leave fuel in your plane for an extended period of time. If you have high humidity, as you said, it will absorb some of the moisture and when that happens it, not only gets closer to a phase separation but becomes very corrosive.... It may eat your tanks if they are anything but stainless steel. It will probably start to eat your fuel system including the carb body and the fuel lines. Best not to leave it in the plane and only fly on fresh fuel. BTW you will know when you have a phase separation happening... you will get something just over 10% of the quantity of fuel in your tank showing up as water. So if you have left say 15 gal of fuel in your plane then if it separates you will get 1.5 gallons of water/ethanol solution (mostly water) hitting your carb or injectors. A little good news is if you are using a paper filter it will try to block the water from passing... unfortunately there won’t be anything else but water to pass. The milky substance you did find is probably something the ethanol started to eat.
The second point is as Barry mentioned remove the ethanol form your fuel by adding enough water to cause a phase separation. Then siphon the clear ethanol free gas off the top of the water ethanol solution that will form on the bottom of the container. Be careful though, to let the gas sit for about twenty minutes so all the water can settle out before siphoning the gas. And always use a good chamois or felt to strain your gas... either of those products will pass gas but not water. If you remove the ethanol from your fuel then it won’t hurt to leave the gas in your plane between flights for periods of up to I guess a month or so.
Noel
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of FLYaDIVE
Sent: February 7, 2011 2:29 PM
To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com (rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: ethanol
Joe:
There are a few things that would cause your fuel to go cloudy:
Contamination in the tank.
Hygroscopic action of the alcohol
Temperature (low) causing the water to freeze
Being that you found only 1/2 ounce I would also consider:
The drain plugs as being contaminated due to oxidation
How clean was the inspection tube that you were using
When you say 'separation', are you referring to the water separating out from the fuel due to saturation? If yes, then YES you could be seeing the water above what the alcohol would hold in suspension.
A 1/2 ounce... I would not worry about. But why use gas with ethanol - Do the separation procedure that has been discussed here on line and you will reduce the chances of water.
Barry
On Mon, Feb 7, 2011 at 10:10 AM, Joe and Joan Kimbell <jnjkimbell(at)hotmail.com (jnjkimbell(at)hotmail.com)> wrote:
Appreciate some info concerning fuel seperation. I have CH701 with the 100hp riotax. I live in a high humedity area and have not been flying much lately. I use 10% ethanol fuel and last time I started to fly (fuel had been in A/C over a month) and checked the lowest drain, I found cloudy fuel, not water, but did not lood good. I continued to drain fuel until it was clear, probably a half an ounce. Was this cloudy fuel on the point of seperation? I did go ahead and fly with no problems, but after thinking about it, what would the list's ideas be. Very glad it kept running, though an both tanks the fuel seemed to come out of only one tank. No external fuel pump. Gravity feed.
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Noel Loveys
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Float Flyr
Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland
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| Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 2:56 pm Post subject: ethanol |
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Fact of the matter is they don’t... or at least not all of them do.
I was recently in Florida, great state!, when I met a man who had a 52 Bentley .... dead. He said it was a problem with the fuel pump inside the right rear wheel... Sorry to tell you but in 52 the only pump put on a Bentley was engine driven at the front of the car not under the backside. What he actually had there was a Fram filter that someone who didn’t know any better installed to try to protect the car from fifty five years of gum build up that was loosened by, Yep, Ethanol. I feel that a filter was probably justified after so many years of first leaded gas then a host of different non lead stuff and finally ethanol.... But! BIG BUT! The place for a filter is after the fuel pump not between it and the gas tank. Those old cars are designed to burn anything that will pass through their screens so install a screen with more screening area and then check them regularly.
This is only one instance there have been literally thousands of others. If you want to add the fact that planes undergo relatively large temperature changes (down) in flight this adds another reason to avoid using the stuff in planes.
Some of us have to use it. If this is your case then do so carefully. Never leave gas in your plane, never fly on old gas and be sure to purchase your gas at a busy station because they get more deliveries a week and so their gas doesn’t get the same chance of absorbing moisture in their tanks.
Good flights
Noel
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of ray atkinson
Sent: May 25, 2011 1:01 PM
To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: ethanol
How in the world do millions of cars run trillions of miles trouble free on this stuff??
[quote]
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Float Flyr
Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland
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| Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 3:04 pm Post subject: ethanol |
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Sure it did there are less BTU of energy in a gallon of ethanol than there is in a gallon of gas... BTW there is also more BTU of energy in a gallon of Diesel than in a gallon of gas. That’s why Diesel cars run further on a gallon of fuel than Gas powered cars and it’s also the reason Gasoline powered cars go further on a gallon of fuel than ethanol powered engines.
If the idea of ethanol was to save gasoline reserves they had failed miserably.
Noel
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Pete Christensen
Sent: May 25, 2011 3:03 PM
To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: ethanol
I know for sure my car mileage went down when they started pumping gasohol.
Pete
On 5/25/2011 11:25 AM, Rick Thomason wrote:
Who said they were "trouble free"?
On May 25, 2011, at 10:31 AM, "ray atkinson" <raybot(at)comcast.net (raybot(at)comcast.net)> wrote:
[quote]
How in the world do millions of cars run trillions of miles trouble free on this stuff??
[quote]
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Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
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Float Flyr
Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland
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| Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 3:06 pm Post subject: ethanol |
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Cars, newer ones, all have sealed fuel systems... planes have large vents pressurizing the tanks.
Noel
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Float Flyr
Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland
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| Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 3:12 pm Post subject: ethanol |
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The amount of drop in RON depends partially on the concentration of ethanol
in the fuel. For instance if ethanol is washed out of 10% 91 Ron gas then
the result be a lesser drop than having the eth washed out of E-15 91RON
gas.
Funny thing is water in ethanol makes a corrosive liquid. Water in gas is
just water. The thing ot do is simply let it settle out before you siphon
off the gas. A better idea may be to try buying your gas at a marina.
Several marinas now sell no ethanol contaminated fuel because of problems in
boats.
Noel
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Float Flyr
Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland
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| Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 3:34 pm Post subject: ethanol |
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It should be simple to calculate the octane drop by removing the ethanol. All you have to know is pure ethanol is 116 RON. 90%(at)X RON + 10% (at) 116 = 91 RON The difference on the final RON and the Ethanol is 26 RON caused by 10 % of the quantity or 2.6 RON therefore a gestimation is wash your 91 octane and you will have 88.4 RON. Problem is if you have 15% ethanol in 91 RON gas then the drop will be larger...however if you only have 5% ethanol in the mix then the drop in RON will only be half.
High octane premium fuel is supposed to be closer to 97 RON (at) 10% ethanol the drop by washing that fuel should be around 95 RON
Any mathematicians out there want to go over the figures for me. I don’t pretend to be an expert on math... I don’t get paid enough!
Noel
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of FLYaDIVE
Sent: May 25, 2011 7:58 PM
To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: ethanol
Hi Roger:
How did you get the octane rating of 87 after washing 91?
Alcohol does add a small amount of octane but I really doubt if it is 4 points.
Do you know anyone that can run octane tests?
I have a couple of tests I want to get done.
As for the pitting of the fuel bowl... That is an easy cure. Send it out and get it Hard Coat Anodized to a thickness of 0.0025". It should cost about $20 to $50 tops. When talking to the plating house you - should - know what kind of aluminum it is made from. OR at least if it is cast or machined from a billet. Also be nice to the house and ask if they could just run it with a bigger batch - NO SPECIAL HANDLING REQUIRED. This keeps price down.
Barry
On Wed, May 25, 2011 at 3:12 PM, Roger Lee <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com (ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:
--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com (ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com)>
If you use washed 91 oct it will be 87 when your done. If you have a 912ULS (100 hp) that won't work. If you start with 87 oct it isn't fit for either 912. You will eventually end up replacing the carb bowls at $100 a piece because the very small amount of moisture still in the fuel will pit the aluminum bowl. I have had to replace a few of these already for the long term hard core washers.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
Home [url=tel:520-574-1080]520-574-1080[/url] TRY HOME FIRST
Cell [url=tel:520-349-7056]520-349-7056[/url]
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01234567
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Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
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Float Flyr
Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland
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| Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 3:42 pm Post subject: ethanol |
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Barry add to that mess the fact if you want to make a gallon of ethanol commercially you better start with considerably more than a gallon of Diesel. That’s to seed the field, spray insecticides etc., harvest and separate the corn, transport the corn, ferment the corn, distil the mash and then transport the ethanol to gas stations because it cannot be shipped any other way. Now you still have to dispose of the grouts. Some farmers feed them to their animals... They should be shot at dawn for abusing their animals in this way.
Noel
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of FLYaDIVE
Sent: May 25, 2011 8:05 PM
To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: ethanol
You are correct Pete:
The HP went down about 10%.
And you probably see a 10% reduction in fuel economy.
So now you burn 10% more fuel for the same time or distance.
SOooooo if you are burning 10% more fuel and there is a 10% reduction in hydrocarbons how the hell is there a reduction in pollution?
Ask the congress and the EPA to explain that! It must be the NEW MATH!
Barry
On Wed, May 25, 2011 at 1:33 PM, Pete Christensen <pchristensen10(at)austin.rr.com (pchristensen10(at)austin.rr.com)> wrote:
I know for sure my car mileage went down when they started pumping gasohol.
Pete
On 5/25/2011 11:25 AM, Rick Thomason wrote:
[quote]
Who said they were "trouble free"?
On May 25, 2011, at 10:31 AM, "ray atkinson" <raybot(at)comcast.net (raybot(at)comcast.net)> wrote:
[quote]
How in the world do millions of cars run trillions of miles trouble free on this stuff??
[quote]
---
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Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
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Float Flyr
Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland
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| Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 3:48 pm Post subject: ethanol |
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In my mind the reason we don't have a good alternative to ethanol laced fuel is political. If we let the powers to be know we are dissatisfied with the status of fuel something will be done about it. They are the ones who are in fact p[aid to listen to our concerns. So why not tell them? There are serious issues about fuelling anything on this continent with ethanol. Those issues are multiplied when using the fuel for flight therefore should be addressed the sooner the better.
Noel
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Float Flyr
Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland
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| Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 3:57 pm Post subject: ethanol |
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Problem Roger is there are more concerns than just the tanks slowly
disintegrating. There is the reduction of power, the reduction of range and
god knows what ethanol does to the evaporation rate and let's not forget
phase separation as the fuel cools in airborne tanks. These are serious
issues that flying on 100 LL will not address. Now if somebody came out
with a viable process to remove the lead from 100 LL that may be worth
looking into. The only process i can think of is electro reduction. It may
not work and I don't want to be the fellow to try it!
Noel
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Float Flyr
Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland
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| Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 3:58 pm Post subject: ethanol |
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Even sober sailors want to avoid the SP lol
Noel
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of FLYaDIVE
Sent: May 25, 2011 11:39 PM
To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: ethanol
On Wed, May 25, 2011 at 9:00 PM, dave <dave(at)cfisher.com (dave(at)cfisher.com)> wrote:
--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "dave" <dave(at)cfisher.com (dave(at)cfisher.com)>
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ReguEsLfKcI
This guy runs a test like a drunk sailor runs from the SP.
012345678
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Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
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Float Flyr
Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland
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| Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 4:03 pm Post subject: ethanol |
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I agree with you that his procedure needs work but it is close enough to demonstrate that most of the gas in his area, Southern Ontario, is in fact not 10% ethanol at all. No wonder he has no problem with it.
Noel
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of FLYaDIVE
Sent: May 25, 2011 11:39 PM
To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: ethanol
On Wed, May 25, 2011 at 9:00 PM, dave <dave(at)cfisher.com (dave(at)cfisher.com)> wrote:
--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "dave" <dave(at)cfisher.com (dave(at)cfisher.com)>
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ReguEsLfKcI
This guy runs a test like a drunk sailor runs from the SP.
012345678
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