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Frank

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 69

Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 6:09 pm Post subject: POINTY HEADED FAA ADMINISTRATORS



Yakkers;

I'm asking WHY should some of us be "Grandfathered" into no flight

restrictions for Experimental Exhibition registered aircraft

(pre-moratorium) and others with the exact same plane be limited with FAA

restrictions like the no flight past a 300 mile limit rule? What the hell

were these pointy headed FAA bureaucrats thinking? Where do they get off

letting some have all the freedoms they want while restricting others? It

seems like an unacceptable and unequal application of the law. I seem to

remember somewhere that all laws have to be equally administered or they are

unconstitutional. And why put that restriction on us anyways? What pointy

headed bureaucrat thought of that one and why? I suggest we, as RPA members,

use our clout to get rid of this unconstitutional and bullshit set of

regulations!

Frank

"All proficiency/practice flights shall be conducted within the geographical

area described in the applicant's program letter and any amendments to that

letter, but that area will not exceed 300 nautical miles of the aircraft's

home base airport. An exception is permitted for proficiency flying outside

of the area stated above for organized formation flying, training, or

checkout in conjunction with a specific event listed in the applicant's

program letter (or amendments). The program letter should indicate the

location and dates for this proficiency flying."

OOOHHHH............But if you're "grandfathered" and one of the "special

ones" you don't have to do this even though you own the exact same airplane.

What a crock of shit these bureaucrats have done to us! What the hell gives

them the right to unilaterally declare the exact same planes different? F'in

bastards!

L39parts(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 8:10 pm Post subject: POINTY HEADED FAA ADMINISTRATORS

brian

Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 643
Location: Sacramento, California, USA

Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 9:00 pm Post subject: POINTY HEADED FAA ADMINISTRATORS



Frank Haertlein wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

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_________________
Brian Lloyd 


brian-yak at lloyd dot com


+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)





I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .


- Antoine de Saint-Exupery

Frank

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 69

Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 2:58 am Post subject: POINTY HEADED FAA ADMINISTRATORS



Yakkers

AOPA......................

EAA.......................

NRA.......................

Warbirds of America ......

CJAA .....................

The Sierra Club ..........

CRPA .....................

AARP .....................

AMA ......................

AFL-CIO ..................

Sport Fisherman's Assoc...

American Hunter...........

NOW.......................

And a thousand other organizations.........

All have political representation to look out for their interests.

RPA grant.txt

Vote in the following poll

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=776

If your warbird is more than 800 horsepower you may only take off and land

from your home airport.

If your warbird is a jet you may only take off and land from your home

airport.

You may not operate your aircraft more than 300 nautical miles from your

home airport.

You must submit a program letter every year.

To deviate from the above you must FAX the FAA for each instance.

These are actual FAA rule. I'm asking what FAA genius thought them up and

why?

Don't you want to change stupid rules like these?

dabear(at)damned.org
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 5:22 am Post subject: POINTY HEADED FAA ADMINISTRATORS



Frank,

You are very funny.

AOPA has over 300,000 members. They are one of the biggest "aviation

lobby" organizations. A key part of their lobby agenda is to get rid of

pop up TFRs and reduce/eliminate the ADIZ around DC. Now they are about

1% of the US population and they can't get movement.

RPA has approximately 300 members. We are about 0.000001% of the US

population. If you think we have ANY real lobby power with the federal

government, (without a couple million to buy a few congress critters),

you have received a serious head injury and you should immediately seek

advanced medical care. I don't know anyone who has a warbird, that

likes the current program letter issue, however it really isn't a big

deal to comply and fly where ever you want (For those non-jet warbirds)

by just sending the FAA a fax.

DaBear

Frank Haertlein wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

Yakkers

AOPA......................

EAA.......................

NRA.......................

Warbirds of America ......

CJAA .....................

The Sierra Club ..........

CRPA .....................

AARP .....................

AMA ......................

AFL-CIO ..................

Sport Fisherman's Assoc...

American Hunter...........

NOW.......................

And a thousand other organizations.........

All have political representation to look out for their interests.

RPA grant.txt

Vote in the following poll

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=776

If your warbird is more than 800 horsepower you may only take off and land

from your home airport.

If your warbird is a jet you may only take off and land from your home

airport.

You may not operate your aircraft more than 300 nautical miles from your

home airport.

You must submit a program letter every year.

To deviate from the above you must FAX the FAA for each instance.

These are actual FAA rule. I'm asking what FAA genius thought them up and

why?

Don't you want to change stupid rules like these?

- The Matronics Yak-List Email Forum -
 
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gus.fraser(at)gs.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 5:31 am Post subject: POINTY HEADED FAA ADMINISTRATORS



Fax, come on this is the 21st century, I send an email.

Gus

pilot8kcab(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 5:58 am Post subject: POINTY HEADED FAA ADMINISTRATORS



Frank,

I've thought about this subject a few times as well and thought the approach

for a rectification would be coming at it from a different angle. Bear with

this logic for a second. The EAA as with AOPA has had a hard time

convincing the powers to be that a medical is of little benefit for the

majority of non-commercial pilots out there, despite overwhelming evidence

in their favor. Getting the FAR's changed to remove medical requirements as

with your suggestion would be a major uphill battle. Part of the end around

approach is the new EAA Sport Pilot certificate which does not require a

pilot medical (with a few caveats). Now part of the idea is that a database

of evidence with time will be built under this new pilot certificate which

can be added to the database of evidence from the glider pilot sector, that

there is no difference in accident rate (caused my medical incapacitation)

between the medically certificatied pilot population and the non-medically

cetificated pilot population. Presumably backed with this evidence the

EAA/AOPA will have more clout in getting the Class III medical requirement

removed from the private pilot certificate.

Now using a similar approach, I would propose that instead of trying to

remove the current requirement that instead an effort be made to create

another Experimental category, perhaps "Experimental Proven". The

"Experimental" wording should bring the interest of the EAA. The new

category could use the rational that if an aircraft or perhaps aircraft type

has been inoperation without major structural incident for "X" number of

years then the design inherently by trial has proven itself and does not

need to go thru the rigirous FAA certication process etc. I would suggest

that after "X" number of years has passed, that anything in the

"Experimental Exhibition" category could be converted to the proposed

"Experimental Proven" category, and that the new category have no

restrictions beyond those in the Experimental Home Built category. My

thinking is that the EAA has experience pushing new certificates into

reality and perhaps that approach can be used to push a new Experimental

certification category into existance.

Regarding the need for the current rules, it has always been my take that

the rules were written not so much for safety reasons (which is the FAA's

charter) but instead to protect the current manufactures of US certified

aircraft from a flood of lower priced well designed aircraft from entering

the market and essentially putting them out of business. Want an example

(non-russian sorry), the Edge 540 is (arguably I'm sure by some) at the

moment the best and strongest unlimited aerobatic aircraft produced in the

USA and possibly the world. It's owners are flying under the "Experimental

Exhibition" category. The new price for an Edge 540 is far less than its

nearest "Certificated" competitor and if the "Experimental Exhibition" rules

were relaxed to those of the pre-moritorium aircraft, that certificatied

competitor would have a very tough time selling any aircraft with such a

cost differential. The same would hold true for the importation of the Yaks

etc.

Scott

dsavarese(at)elmore.rr.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 6:01 am Post subject: POINTY HEADED FAA ADMINISTRATORS



Really Ron? What does the FAA Order 8130.2F (or its predecessors) say with regards to "..you can go anywhere you want if you put it on your program letter or fax the FSDO." Are you saying that if you want to go visit your grandmother and she lives outside of your 300 NM proficiency area, all you have to do is either have "going to visit my grandmother in Anytown, USA" on you annual program letter or send a FAX to your FSDO saying "going to visit my grandmother in Anytown, USA"?

Dennis

cgalley(at)qcbc.org
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 6:36 am Post subject: POINTY HEADED FAA ADMINISTRATORS



Sometimes it would pay to keep one's mouth shut. If the FAA sees too much of this kind of talk, they might decide to "standardize" things by requiring that all the pre-moratorium airplanes get recertificated to the new rules. They definitely won't allow the new certifications to regress to the old rules!

The new certifications were brought about primarily by people bringing all the soviet bloc jets into the country. In fact, the sheer number of airplanes in the exhibition category in recent years prompted the FAA to refine the certification of these aircraft.

jon(at)email.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 6:41 am Post subject: POINTY HEADED FAA ADMINISTRATORS



The stuff they did doesn't have any teeth in it anyway... with the jets

and the 800hp+ stuff, you can go anywhere so long as you let them know

you're going -- the wording says "notify". It doesn't say that they have

to approve or even acknowledge the notification. I need 48 hours notice

to go somewhere that's not on my annual program letter, but apparently I

can modify that program letter on NO notice, say even from a Blackberry

while on short final.

Many people in the FAA are also wondering what good all this clearly "make

work" paperwork does... I've been told that it will be "going away", but a

time frame is never given.

Jon

jon(at)email.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 6:47 am Post subject: POINTY HEADED FAA ADMINISTRATORS



You know what happenend? "They" got together in a back room at AirVenture

about 12 years ago and the FAA said "We don't want these soviet jets

galavanting all over the country -- somebody make some rules to throw a

wrench in that." And so some arbitrary rules were agreed to by the

parties attending.

The jets have a 600nm limit on them... but there are jets everywhere --

there's not a single spot of ground in the CONUS that's not within 600nm

of some jet, so it did NOTHING in terms of safety. It did, however, calm

Cessna's fears about having to compete with cheap, well-built jets.

Jon

brian

Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 643
Location: Sacramento, California, USA

Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 6:58 am Post subject: POINTY HEADED FAA ADMINISTRATORS



Fraser, Gus wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

- The Matronics Yak-List Email Forum -
 
Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

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_________________
Brian Lloyd 


brian-yak at lloyd dot com


+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)





I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .


- Antoine de Saint-Exupery

brian

Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 643
Location: Sacramento, California, USA

Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 7:08 am Post subject: POINTY HEADED FAA ADMINISTRATORS



Scott Kirk wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Now using a similar approach, I would propose that instead of trying to

remove the current requirement that instead an effort be made to create

another Experimental category, perhaps "Experimental Proven".

	


That is brilliant Scott! As I pointed out, you can't get a bureaucracy

to change its mind on something it has done in the past and then written

down. (Evidence: Bob Hoover.) But what you are proposing is new ruling

and new paper! That let's them off the hook.

 	  Quote: 	
		   Regarding the need for the current rules, it has always been my take

that the rules were written not so much for safety reasons (which is the

FAA's charter) but instead to protect the current manufactures of US

certified aircraft from a flood of lower priced well designed aircraft

from entering the market and essentially putting them out of business.

	


That strikes me as correct. The rumor I heard about the current change

(post "moratorium") came about because Cessna was in fear of loss of

Caravan sales to the AN-2.

 	  Quote: 	
		   Want an example (non-russian sorry), the Edge 540 is (arguably I'm sure

by some) at the moment the best and strongest unlimited aerobatic

aircraft produced in the USA and possibly the world. It's owners are

flying under the "Experimental Exhibition" category. The new price for

an Edge 540 is far less than its nearest "Certificated" competitor and

if the "Experimental Exhibition" rules were relaxed to those of the

pre-moritorium aircraft, that certificatied competitor would have a very

tough time selling any aircraft with such a cost differential. The same

would hold true for the importation of the Yaks etc.

	


OTOH, market forces would prevail. The price of the Edge 540 would go up

because the cost of certification would have to be added into the cost

of the airplane. Also its perceived value would go up so it could demand

a higher price. Its price would come into line with domestic competitors

and there would be a level playing field rather than a market skewed by

government meddling.

--

Brian Lloyd 2243 Cattle Dr.

brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630

+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)

I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

- Antoine de Saint-Exupery

_________________
Brian Lloyd
brian-yak at lloyd dot com
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)

I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery

brian

Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 643
Location: Sacramento, California, USA

Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 7:11 am Post subject: POINTY HEADED FAA ADMINISTRATORS



A. Dennis Savarese wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

<dsavarese(at)elmore.rr.com>

- The Matronics Yak-List Email Forum -
 
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_________________
Brian Lloyd 


brian-yak at lloyd dot com


+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)





I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .


- Antoine de Saint-Exupery

brian

Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 643
Location: Sacramento, California, USA

Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 7:14 am Post subject: POINTY HEADED FAA ADMINISTRATORS



cgalley wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

- The Matronics Yak-List Email Forum -
 
Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

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_________________
Brian Lloyd 


brian-yak at lloyd dot com


+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)





I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .


- Antoine de Saint-Exupery

gus.fraser(at)gs.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 8:04 am Post subject: POINTY HEADED FAA ADMINISTRATORS



My sent box and that of my email provider are a better source of

confirmation. If a fax is required then the regs should say that if they

don't specify a contact method they don't have a leg to stand on.

My FSDO is Teterboro, allegedly the worst behaved in the country, not my

words they are great with me. Trust me, the last thing these guys want to do

is have even more paper to file. Amongst other things they are human and as

such hate paperwork that they have to do.

To Frank,

As far as the regs go I have never seen it as a problem. This is the break

down as given to me by an FAA AW guy.

"You can fly for three reasons

1. Maintenance

2. Exhibition

3. Proficiency

Any flight that you do as PIC is, above all else, a contribution to your

proficiency."

And that was from the FAA !

Frank please remember there is a big old world out there and, if you

recognize it or not, here in the US we enjoy THE most freedom regarding

experimental aircraft, anywhere in the world.

I would agree that personal responsibility should be the overriding factor

in how we fly but the regs exist and they are what they are. If you don't

believe me just ask the British subscribers what it is like dealing with the

Campaign Against Aviation (commonly called the CAA).

It's kind of like sitting on the beach with a tequila and a hot chick and

complaining about the crabs.

Gus

dsavarese(at)elmore.rr.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 8:09 am Post subject: POINTY HEADED FAA ADMINISTRATORS



The operative word is "exhibit". From 8130.2F Change 1, "A certificate for experimental exhibition must only be issued when an aircraft is to be used for valid exhibition purposes. Included in those purposes are organized airshows, organized air races, organized fly-in activities, organized exhibitions, youth education events, shoppingmall/school/similar static displays, organized aerobatic competition, sail plane fly-ins or competitive races or meets, and movie or television productions."

Yes, Brian you're correct about being careful. But being careful does not equate to "you can fly it anywhere you want by sending a FAX to your FSDO." Proficiency flying is within your 300 NM limitation. Outside of the 300 NM proficiency area, you are <suppose> to be attending a formal event such as a fly-in, airshow, etc.

Does everyone comply with this? Heck no. The point is simply if you're outside of your 300 nm proficiency area, be sure you're covered. Is it a dumb rule? You bet. But it's still the rule under which our aircraft are certificated.

FWIW

Dennis

brian

Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 643
Location: Sacramento, California, USA

Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 8:37 am Post subject: POINTY HEADED FAA ADMINISTRATORS



Fraser, Gus wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

- The Matronics Yak-List Email Forum -
 
Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

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_________________
Brian Lloyd 


brian-yak at lloyd dot com


+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)





I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .


- Antoine de Saint-Exupery

cgalley(at)qcbc.org
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 8:44 am Post subject: POINTY HEADED FAA ADMINISTRATORS



You well may be right, but how to you answer your wife's question... Do these make me look FAT? If you answer truthfully, you might piss off your wife! If you rattle the cage so to speak, you might piss off the others in the group when "they" decide to make everyone the same and take away the grandfathered permissions.

Since they control the rules, then the effort to change must be done with diplomacy and tact. Name calling doesn't promote good relationships.

jon(at)email.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 10:05 am Post subject: POINTY HEADED FAA ADMINISTRATORS



What spirit?

The problem with 8130.2x is that it has a hidden agenda. When you don't

spell out the intent of your rules (because spelling it out would make

clear that you're up to monkey business) you wind up with rules with lots

of loopholes.

They tried to tack things down all around the edges instead of coming

right out and saying, "These rules are intended to hobble and

inconvenience."

So I don't think that stopping by your grandmother's violates the spirit

of the rule -- since nobody really knows what that spirit is. And I don't

take hints. 

Jon

 	  Quote: 	
		  

A. Dennis Savarese wrote:

>

> <dsavarese(at)elmore.rr.com>

>

> Really Ron? What does the FAA Order 8130.2F (or its predecessors) say

> with regards to "..you can go anywhere you want if you put it on your

> program letter or fax the FSDO." Are you saying that if you want to go

> visit your grandmother and she lives outside of your 300 NM proficiency

> area, all you have to do is either have "going to visit my grandmother

> in Anytown, USA" on you annual program letter or send a FAX to your FSDO

> saying "going to visit my grandmother in Anytown, USA"?

No silly. That would be against the spirit of the rule. OTOH, if you are

careful about where you exhibit the airplane or fly it for proficiency

it is amazing how convenient it can be to stop off and see your

grandmother along the way.

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