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Doug.Norman(at)sportaviat
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 Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 8:42 am Post subject: (no subject) |
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Yes. It is a general risk area. And that was the point of my original post: with SLSAs – intended for commercial use - one is entering into a long-term relationship with the manufacturer. That is why the manufacturer should be made explicit; and I found the business arrangement a bit too “clever.”
As an owner of an AMD SLSA, I have a vested interest in their survival; or in another company picking up the manufacturing of the Zodiac SLSA and accepting responsibility for previous AMD SLSAs. The reason for this is that the FAA demands that a manufacturer manage the equivalent of the type data, and manage the maintenance and safety programs for the SLSA (issuing SA, maintaining the Maintenance Manual, etc.).
It does seem to suggest that a manufacturer who offers an airplane which fits the definition of an LSA but which has a standard airworthiness cert would be in a good market position. Perhaps that’s why Cessna has gone through the expense of performing all the Part-23-type testing on their C-162.
For Piper’s part, I suppose they could decide to add become a PiperSport manufacturer and pay licensing fees to Czech Sport Aircraft. Then use the long legacy of Piper’s name in the industry to mitigate any fears that they would disappear.
Of course, it doesn’t seem that many people worry about this issue… but, as we all learn about this area of SP/LSA, flight schools will.
From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Pagan
Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 11:11 AM
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: (no subject)
Doesn't the same risk apply to any LSA purchased then from any manufacturer? It thats the case there are a lot of aircraft owners out there with LSA's whistling past the graveyard.
Bill Pagan
From: Doug - SportAviation <Doug.Norman(at)sportaviation.aero>
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Tue, January 26, 2010 10:35:56 AM
Subject: RE: Re: (no subject)
You’re not correct. If the manufacturer goes out of business, then the current airworthiness cert is invalid. Check on EAA, call your local FSDO, or contact AFS- 610 in OK for clarification. And, if that happens when you are using the SLSA for commercial purposes (e.g. flight training) you’re hosed (consider the implications of targeting the flight training industry). That’s the first issue. The second issue is maintenance. It is NOT a part 23 airplane. Again, the manufacturer’s maintenance manual is the sole arbiter of what can be done, and how it is done. Again, no issue for E-LSA; huge issue for S-LSA. Contact any of the companies who offer Repairman Cert training for details. The third is what you can do wrt alterations to the aircraft. The original manufacturer is the ONLY one who controls that. Not an issue if they’re responsive; huge issue if they’re not.
I’m certainly not bad-mouthing anyone or anything; but, one must understand the issues – it’s the subtle ones that can come bite you in the butt.
How do I know? I am an instructor that offered SP/LSA training, and purchased an SLSA specifically for the purpose of entering the SP/LSA emerging market. I discovered these things during the due-diligence of putting the training program together.
From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Craig Spainhower
Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 9:07 AM
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: (no subject)
I did my transition training in a Sport Cruiser, it worked well for me and is a nice flying aircraft. I think they have targeted the training market which may be part of Pipers interest. And if it's registered as an S-LSA, it will always be an S-LSA unless you intentionally recertify as an experimental.
On Tue, Jan 26, 2010 at 6:35 AM, Doug - SportAviation <Doug.Norman(at)sportaviation.aero (Doug.Norman(at)sportaviation.aero)> wrote:
That’s the key question, isn’t it: “SO WHAT.”
It's good that Piper is validating the LSA market – they see an opportunity to get into the market and potentially reestablish their position at the low end with no risk; however, I do wonder about the approach they're taking. There's a buried "gotcha" in there.
Here's the "gotcha." SLSAs are governed and managed not by the FAA with a Type Certificate, but by the manufacturer. That has some implications. The most important for an owner is that EVERYTHING about the configuration, maintenance, and management of the airplane is controlled by the MANUFACTURER. So, in this case, who's the manufacturer? It's not Piper. New Piper (the company we know as Piper) is not involved except at arm's length. What happens to your Piper Sport if Czech Sport Aircraft goes under? You've got an E-LSA, not an S-LSA (and all the implications from that!).
The point is that, unlike with standard-certed aircraft, with S-LSAs one is entering a long-term relationship with the manufacturer. Therefore, clarity in who the relationship is with is important. And, in this case, it is hidden. This is a bit of bait-and-switch.
From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of purplemoon99(at)bellsouth.net (purplemoon99(at)bellsouth.net)
Sent: Monday, January 25, 2010 6:25 PM
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com (zenith-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Re: (no subject)
SO WHAT? It's a damm good airplane Whose name would you put on it? Joe N101HD
From: Doug - SportAviation <Doug.Norman(at)sportaviation.aero (Doug.Norman(at)sportaviation.aero)>
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com (zenith-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Mon, January 25, 2010 4:52:03 PM
Subject: RE: Re: (no subject)
In fact, it’s not really a Piper at all.. And, it’s not being sold by Piper (despite how it looks).
It is being marketed by “PiperSport Distribution, Inc.” The actual seller is Czech Sport Aircraft who is the SportCruiser manufacturer. They merely re-badge it as the Piper Sport.
If one places an order for one, you must sign the order agreement which states in part:
<the order is placed with> PiperSport Distribution, Inc. The aircraft is
manufactured by Czech Sport Aircraft, a.s., which is the seller
From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Gary Gower
Sent: Monday, January 25, 2010 3:48 PM
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com (zenith-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Re: (no subject)
In fact IS the Sport Cruiser...
Saludos
Gary Gower.
--- On Fri, 1/22/10, flyingmike9 <mikelloyd9(at)btinternet.com (mikelloyd9(at)btinternet.com)> wrote:
012345
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4567890123456789 | Quote: | it looks to more like the sports cruiser
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0 | Quote: | it looks to more like the sports cruiser
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1 | Quote: | it looks to more like the sports cruiser
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2 | Quote: | it looks to more like the sports cruiser
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[quote][b]
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purplemoon99(at)bellsouth
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 5:39 pm Post subject: (no subject) |
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I think that the real problem lies here. A frist class, well known well established aircraft company (piper)with a service network world wide has hooked up with a proven air craft manufacture,with a proven ,great aircraft (Sportcruiser) ,now they have a perfect set up to get the largest slice of the LS market. I'll bet once they get going they,they will be hard to beatSOOOOO all the what IFs and bla bla bla won't amount to Crap Still think It's best light sport plane I've ever flown and would love to own one..... Joe N101HD
From: Doug - SportAviation <Doug.Norman(at)sportaviation.aero>
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Tue, January 26, 2010 7:35:49 AM
Subject: RE: Re: (no subject)
That’s the key question, isn’t it: “SO WHAT.”
It's good that Piper is validating the LSA market – they see an opportunity to get into the market and potentially reestablish their position at the low end with no risk; however, I do wonder about the approach they're taking. There's a buried "gotcha" in there.
Here's the "gotcha." SLSAs are governed and managed not by the FAA with a Type Certificate, but by the manufacturer. That has some implications. The most important for an owner is that EVERYTHING about the configuration, maintenance, and management of the airplane is controlled by the MANUFACTURER. So, in this case, who's the manufacturer? It's not Piper. New Piper (the company we know as Piper) is not involved except at arm's length. What happens to your Piper Sport if Czech Sport Aircraft goes under? You've got an E-LSA, not an S-LSA (and all the implications from that!).
The point is that, unlike with standard-certed aircraft, with S-LSAs one is entering a long-term relationship with the manufacturer. Therefore, clarity in who the relationship is with is important. And, in this case, it is hidden. This is a bit of bait-and-switch.
From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of purplemoon99(at)bellsouth.net
Sent: Monday, January 25, 2010 6:25 PM
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: (no subject)
SO WHAT? It's a damm good airplane Whose name would you put on it? Joe N101HD
From: Doug - SportAviation <Doug.Norman(at)sportaviation.aero>
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Mon, January 25, 2010 4:52:03 PM
Subject: RE: Re: (no subject)
In fact, it’s not really a Piper at all.. And, it’s not being sold by Piper (despite how it looks).
It is being marketed by “PiperSport Distribution, Inc.” The actual seller is Czech Sport Aircraft who is the SportCruiser manufacturer. They merely re-badge it as the Piper Sport.
If one places an order for one, you must sign the order agreement which states in part:
<the order is placed with> PiperSport Distribution, Inc. The aircraft is
manufactured by Czech Sport Aircraft, a.s., which is the seller
From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Gower
Sent: Monday, January 25, 2010 3:48 PM
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: (no subject)
In fact IS the Sport Cruiser...
Saludos
Gary Gower.
--- On Fri, 1/22/10, flyingmike9 <mikelloyd9(at)btinternet.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
From: flyingmike9 <mikelloyd9(at)btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: (no subject)
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Friday, January 22, 2010, 4:24 PM0123456789 |
0
[quote][b]
| | - The Matronics Zenith-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List |
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