Matronics Email Lists :: View topic

Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists

Get Email Distribution Too! FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Register

Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in

Zenith liability
Goto page Previous 1, 2

Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Zenith-List

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author Message

leinad

Joined: 19 Sep 2006
Posts: 283
Location: Central Virginia

Posted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 4:28 pm Post subject: Re: Zenith liability

Hey Paul,

Just a few thoughts.  First, It wouldn't surprise me to see Aircraft Spruce offer the upgrade kits for sale soon.   They did just announce they are now the official parts and materials supplier for Zenith.

Second, I'm glad your self imposed grounding is coming to an end.  Given some of the flak you've received for your stand I wonder if anyone is reconsidering their criticism.

Dan

 	  psm(at)att.net wrote: 	
		  Hi Jim,



I believe your thinking is sound, but I come to 

several different conclusions from yours.  Part 

of the reason for this is my own "Campaign" to 

get exactly what we got the other day.  As I have 

said many times in many different places, I 

wanted a competently engineered set of changes 

that satisfied the NTSB requests.  I couldn't 

have asked for more than to have Chris actually 

sponsor the changes.  He may not be convinced 

they are necessary, but still he applied his 

extensive skill and experience to bring us a well designed upgrade package.



My argument to the Heintz folks started out and 

always continued that they did not need to admit 

any fault.  All I wanted from them was a well 

engineered upgrade package.  They had "Design 

responsibility" so they were the best source for 

properly engineered changes.  My thinking, and I 

think theirs, was based on the idea that to admit 

a design flaw made them liable to the activities 

of every greedy lawyer in the world.  That would 

help nobody but the lawyers.  The notion that 

they could design and release improvements to the 

design without admitting fault would get the 

owners the needed (desired?) improvements without 

automatically bringing on all the lawsuits.  Your 

logic that they are liable anyway may have some 

merit, but it really doesn't accomplish anything 

useful to blame Zenith for the problems.  I don't 

think they have "Deep pockets" like the big 

manufacturers, so the lawyers are likely to 

ignore the whole thing at this point.  Especially 

with the lack of "Fault" any lawyer considering 

attacking Zenith is faced with a difficult case 

with unlikely victory and the real likelihood 

that there is no money to win at the end of the path.



I don't share your conclusion about the "Losses" 

of the S-LSA owners either.  They made a choice 

to try one of the new type aircraft instead of 

buying a part 23 certified plane.  They benefited 

from a much lower price for the same level of 

performance.  Now they have to pay a bit more 

than they thought the price was.  It sounds like 

a lot of money to a plans or kit builder, but 

when you measure the cost of a factory built 

plane against the upgrade cost you will see it is 

only a small percentage.  These buyers have 

simply bought into a more expensive version of 

airplane ownership than the plans and kit builders.



I don't see why Zenith, or Zenair, or the current 

European version of Zenair would refuse to sell 

upgrade kits to anyone who wants one.  That is 

their business - selling airplane parts.  The 

changes are supposed to be limited to American 

planes, but the chatter I have heard from other 

owners in other countries is they want to make the changes to their planes too.



I agree with you completely on the issue of CZAW 

customers.  They have a problem since I doubt AMD 

will be able or willing to upgrade their 

planes.  They should be able to get upgrade 

instructions and parts, but will need to pay a 

local mechanic to make the changes.  This must 

include a certain premium for the mechanic to 

become familiar with this particular style of 

airplane building and obtain the specialized 

tools such as the custom rivet 

setters.  Purchasers of experimental Zodiacs 

built by others are in a similar fix.  The rules 

don't require a licensed mechanic to work on 

their planes, but they probably don't have the 

personal skills the builders had.  I'm not sure 

there is a really nice solution for them.  They 

may wind up paying the same price as the S-LSA 

purchasers, but they didn't think they were 

getting into that price range when they bought their used experimental plane.



I don't want to guess at the likely price for the 

upgrade kits, but I feel the parts will be a 

small amount of money.  The more significant cost 

is the labor to install the upgrade.  I feel any 

owner who was able to pay for his version of the 

airplane will have no problem paying for the 

additional parts.  I just don't think it is 

consistent with the agreements between plans and 

kit builders and Zenith/Zenair for them to get 

the parts for free.  Perhaps AMD will have a 

different situation since they sold airplanes 

rather than parts in the first place.



I feel this is a big change in the "Landscape" 

for all XL and 650 owners.  I am hopeful the 

beefed up design will prove to be a lot safer in 

the future.  If so, it will all be worth it.



Paul

XL ready to order upgrade kit.





At 07:47 AM 11/10/2009, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  I've spent a couple of days thinking over the 

Zenith situation. It seems to me

the problem splits into multiple piles: the LSA, the plans builders, and

those building from kits.



One of the seemingly hidden facts about LSAs is that the manufacturer can

mandate a change to the aircraft at any time, and the owners are stuck. They

must made the changes the manufacturer requires, and cannot make any changes

without the manufacturer's concurrence. No field mods, no STCs.



That's not just for Zenith, but for any aircraft with an LSA airworthiness

certificate. I wondered how long it would be before some manufacturer

announced a change or changes that really got to the owners. Still, I feel

extremely sympathetic towards the owners of Zenith XL and 650 LSAs. Recourse

or no recourse, this is a bum deal.



  I feel even more sympathetic towards the owners of the CZAW 601s, because I

have a hunch they are in even more of a no-man's land. Any grounding or

ungrounding must come from CZAW, or its successor, yet I suspect the FAA

considers their aircraft equally grounded. I doubt Zenith will sell them

anything, since they have made it plain they do not consider they have any

liability for the CZAW aircraft. I don't know that I blame them for this;

they didn't sell the aircraft of realize a profit.



Those who built from plans are also very likely 

to have little recourse. After

all, Zenith sold a set of plans which they are free to follow or not. It

appears Zenith has, in effect, also supplied them with a free set of

modification plans. Unfortunately, it adds to the cost and time, perhaps

requiring extensive rework.



Which brings me to the final category, those who bought a kit. Zenith

indicated that this kit contained everything necessary to build a flying

airplane, except the engine, paint, upholstery, and avionics. Whatever it may

be called by Zenith, the â€œfixâ€ kit is not a 

voluntary upgrade. Zenith can't

claim this is some sort of design improvement; Chris Heintz has already said

he doesn't feel it is necessary.



The FAA, however, very likely will not let these 

aircraft be flown until these

modifications are made. That means Zenith has not delivered everything

necessary to build a flying airplane (with the exceptions previously noted).

This is a direct result of their design, not something the builders have

done. It is, in effect, a mandatory change at Zenith's instigation, even

though it is intended to make the FAA happy.



That leaves a lot of builders having invested a 

lot of time, and now they must

invest more. My feeling is that Zenith should take a hard look at this

situation, and do everything within their power to make these modifications

available either free, or at cost. They'll be lucky if they aren't sued for

time AND materials.



I do not buy the argument that Mooney, Cessna, et al do not pay for

Airworthiness Directives, service bulletins, and so on. While this is true

for products that have been delivered for years, it has not always been true

for products just delivered. Lycoming has paid for the replacement of engine

parts recently delivered that proved to defective. Cessna paid for

modifications to the early Cardinals, when they failed to fly correctly. One

could find many more cases without searching too hard. The payment, of

course, was to head off lawsuits, and (possibly) to preserve company image.



A real issue is that Zenith is a small company, and may not be able to afford

the same things as a Lycoming or a Cessna. I believe there needs to be a

negotiation between 650 and XL builders, with all of Zenith's cards on the

table. We need to see what they can afford. What level of insurance do they

have? They are at fault; they need to give until it hurts, and then

(possibly) give some more.



If this does not happen, there is a very real 

danger of individual or combined

lawsuits which do force Zenith from the aircraft business. I do not think

(and I'm not an attorney) that Zenith's contract is likely to hold up under

the circumstances which are present.



This is my 25 cents worth for this morning, with 

the reminder, as always, that

25 cents won't buy what it once would.

_________________
Scratch building XL with Corvair Engine

psm(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 4:45 pm Post subject: Zenith liability

Hi Dan,



Thanks for the nice thoughts.



So far, nobody has said anything to me about the flak I got.  Of 

course, it was only a few people who gave me all the trouble.  Most 

of the people I know locally and most of the list members were very 

supportive of me and my position.  If I tried I could probably name 

the 4 or 5 people who made all the personal attacks on me for my 

position.  And then there was one who was just angry with me and 

complained about my choice of words . . .



I really do appreciate the sentiment.



Thanks again,



Paul

At 04:28 PM 11/10/2009, you wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  Hey Paul,

Just a few thoughts.  First, It wouldn't surprise me to see Aircraft 

Spruce offer the upgrade kits for sale soon.   They did just 

announce they are now the official parts and materials supplier for Zenith.

Second, I'm glad your self imposed grounding is coming to an 

end.  Given some of the flak you've received for your stand I wonder 

if anyone is reconsidering their criticism.

Dan

4RCSIMMONS(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 5:35 am Post subject: Zenith liability

I would like to respond to the statement made by Mr. Bill.  (For the kit builders!)

I cant keep quiet!

 	  Quote: 	
		  [b]We need to see what they can afford. What level of insurance do they       have? They are at fault; they need to give until it hurts, and then       (possibly) give some more.[/b] 	
Bill, if I broke my arm in your yard stumbling over a twig claiming it was your fault, would your statement still hold true?



This is the mentality that has run our medical fees into the ground in this great country we live in. Lawyers just love it! Everyone wants to blame someone else for their problems and then make some kind of gain from it. It appears that the argument can go on forever as to whether the design needs/needed to be modified or not.



Mr. Hinze has answered on the side of caution from external pressures. We have watched it happen over the past 2 years. He believes in his design! He has done pletny to  prove it. HOw many of his family are flying in his design. Look how many that are out there and don't have a problem! He and his family have been flying it for how long?? Now comes the claim, "Let's bleed them!"



The problem lies with the old saying "The squeaky wheel gets the grease". After all the sounding off over the past 2 years you can see who won!



Now comes the entitlement process! You owe me because . . .  We are a country of entitlement now and it is showing here on the list. Geese!



I have been just as frustrated as any of you folks out there. I have prolonged my build partially for financial reasons (I wasn't born to a golden spoon!)and then to see what happens with modifications.



I have an engine now and am looking forward to completing and flying MY aircraft.



If you look at the parts needed, I can see no more than a few hundred dollars and then a few weeks of toil spreed out over a given period. I don't feel Zenith owes me anything more than sharing their wisodom on the upgrades. I will probably have most of my parts made before the talkers move on to something else to continue their fussing.



In the work place things dont go right, you suck it up and keep on trucking! I  imagine there is not a sole on this list that doesnt have what it takes to purchase said materials.



We chose the kit route to beat cost overrun! Here is a fee that is attached to it! It wont be the last for our decision!



Now,

What did I Do on my airplane yesterday? I prepared my list for needed materials for the upgrade, marked an air box location on the firewall and then the cabin heat location.

Before I went in the house, I placed one of the cylinders and a head on the motorcycle I am restoring, decided my feet were tired and then went into see my family.



Man this country is great!



O yea, I forgot! I slept well knowing there is a solution to the issues we have seen come to where we are. Knowing that in about a year I will take my first flight in a plane I built myself makes me a happy camper.



Rich



P.S

I do feel for the folks with the certified versions. They, have an issue! Expensive one!



 [quote][b]

purplemoon99(at)bellsouth
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 6:12 am Post subject: Zenith liability

Rich, you are right on the mark......Joe N101HD

   From: Rich Simmons <4RCSIMMONS(at)comcast.net>

To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Wed, November 11, 2009 8:30:38 AM

Subject: Re: Zenith liability

 p {margin:0;}  I would like to respond to the statement made by Mr. Bill.  (For the kit builders!)

I cant keep quiet!

 	  Quote: 	
		  [b]We need to see what they can afford. What level of insurance do they       have? They are at fault; they need to give until it hurts, and then       (possibly) give some more.[/b] 	
Bill, if I broke my arm in your yard stumbling over a twig claiming it was your fault, would your statement still hold true?

This is the mentality that has run our medical fees into the ground in this great country we live in. Lawyers just love it! Everyone wants to blame someone else for their problems and then make some kind of gain from it. It appears that the argument can go on forever as to whether the design needs/needed to be modified or not.

Mr. Hinze has answered on the side of caution from external pressures. We have watched it happen over the  past 2 years. He believes in his design! He has done pletny to  prove it. HOw many of his family are flying in his design. Look how many that are out there and don't have a problem! He and his family have been flying it for how long?? Now comes the claim, "Let's bleed them!"

The problem lies with the old saying "The squeaky wheel gets the grease". After all the sounding off over the past 2 years you can see who won!

Now comes the entitlement process! You owe me because . . .  We are a country of entitlement now and it is showing here on the list. Geese!

I have been just as frustrated as any of you folks out there. I have prolonged my build partially for financial reasons (I wasn't born to a golden spoon!)and then to see what happens with modifications.

I have an engine now and am looking forward to completing and flying MY aircraft.

If you look at the parts needed, I can see no more than a few hundred dollars  and then a few weeks of toil spreed out over a given period. I don't feel Zenith owes me anything more than sharing their wisodom on the upgrades. I will probably have most of my parts made before the talkers move on to something else to continue their fussing.

In the work place things dont go right, you suck it up and keep on trucking! I  imagine there is not a sole on this list that doesnt have what it takes to purchase said materials.

We chose the kit route to beat cost overrun! Here is a fee that is attached to it! It wont be the last for our decision!

Now,

What did I Do on my airplane yesterday? I prepared my list for needed materials for the upgrade, marked an air box location on the firewall and then the cabin heat location.

Before I went in the house, I placed one of the cylinders and a head on the motorcycle I am restoring, decided my feet were tired and then went into see my family.

Man this country is  great!

O yea, I forgot! I slept well knowing there is a solution to the issues we have seen come to where we are. Knowing that in about a year I will take my first flight in a plane I built myself makes me a happy camper.

Rich

P.S

I do feel for the folks with the certified versions. They, have an issue! Expensive one!

 	  Quote: 	
		  www.aerow.buildersbooks.com/" target=_blank rel=nofollow>www.buildersbooks.com<-===================================

  [quote][b]

steve(at)cccparis.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 7:53 am Post subject: Zenith liability

AMEN! THANKS Rich!	  

	  

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 Rich, you are right on the mark......Joe N101HD

 

 

 

 

 ________________________________

 From: Rich Simmons <4RCSIMMONS(at)comcast.net>

 To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

 Sent: Wed, November 11, 2009 8:30:38 AM

 Subject: Re: Zenith liability

 

 

 I would like to respond to the statement made by Mr. Bill.  (For the kit builders!)

 I cant keep quiet!

 

 We need to see what they can afford. What level of insurance do they 

       have? They are at fault; they need to give until it hurts, and then 

       (possibly) give some more.

 Bill, if I broke my arm in your yard stumbling over a twig claiming it was your fault, would your statement still hold true?

 

 This is the mentality that has run our medical fees into the ground in this great country we live in. Lawyers just love it! Everyone wants to 

blame someone else for their problems and then make some kind of gain from it. It appears that the argument can go on forever as to 
	


whether the design needs/needed to be modified or not.

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 Mr. Hinze has answered on the side of caution from external pressures. We have watched it happen over the past 2 years. He believes 

in his design! He has done pletny to  prove it. HOw many of his family are flying in his design. Look how many that are out there and don't 
	


have a problem! He and his family have been flying it for how long?? Now comes the claim, "Let's bleed them!"

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 The problem lies with the old saying "The squeaky wheel gets the grease". After all the sounding off over the past 2 years you can see 

who won!
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   

 Now comes the entitlement process! You owe me because . . .  We are a country of entitlement now and it is showing here on the list. 

Geese!
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   

 I have been just as frustrated as any of you folks out there. I have prolonged my build partially for financial reasons (I wasn't born to a 

golden spoon!)and then to see what happens with modifications.
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   

 I have an engine now and am looking forward to completing and flying MY aircraft.

 

 If you look at the parts needed, I can see no more than a few hundred dollars and then a few weeks of toil spreed out over a given 

period. I don't feel Zenith owes me anything more than sharing their wisodom on the upgrades. I will probably have most of my parts 
	


made before the talkers move on to something else to continue their fussing.

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 In the work place things dont go right, you suck it up and keep on trucking! I  imagine there is not a sole on this list that doesnt have 

what it takes to purchase said materials.
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   

 We chose the kit route to beat cost overrun! Here is a fee that is attached to it! It wont be the last for our decision!

 

 Now,

 What did I Do on my airplane yesterday? I prepared my list for needed materials for the upgrade, marked an air box location on the 

firewall and then the cabin heat location.
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   Before I went in the house, I placed one of the cylinders and a head on the motorcycle I am restoring, decided my feet were tired and 

then went into see my family.
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   

 Man this country is great!

 

 O yea, I forgot! I slept well knowing there is a solution to the issues we have seen come to where we are. Knowing that in about a year I 

will take my first flight in a plane I built myself makes me a happy camper.
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   

 Rich

 

 P.S

 I do feel for the folks with the certified versions. They, have an issue! Expensive one!================

 


	


____________________________________________________________________

backstagelive(at)gmail.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 11:53 am Post subject: Zenith liability

I have been going over these posts and would like to know if anyone knows 

what the probable cause of the recent accident was. I'm sorry of I missed 

it. Could the pilot, who I think it was posted that he was in his 70's, have 

had a serious medical condition that could have overstressed the plane? If 

that were the case, maybe we are getting way ahead of ourselves. I agree the 

accident may have caused the Heinz family to announce the new changes way 

ahead of their schedule. You can pull the wings off of ANY plane if the 

pilot is incapacitated first.



If Zenith puts out the retrofit kit for free, they will be heroes in the 

aviation industry. I am happy with purchasing the retrofit kit at the 

manufacturer's cost. I would not be willing to buy it from Aircraft Spruce. 

I believe it will be impossible for the company to send the parts for free. 

As a builder and supporter of the company, I want them to stay in business 

and support the builders for as long as possible. Providing the kits for 

free may bankrupt the company.



I'm just as angry about this as all of you. I don't see any malice on the 

part of the company. They have treated us well over the years and I believe 

they have earned our trust and we need to support them through these hard 

times. I'm not at the point yet where criticism of the company is called 

for. These repairs will hurt some people more than others and I can 

understand the frustrations on the part of pilots with finished airplanes. I 

also understand when this is over and done with; we will have the very best 

over engineered aircraft on the market.



God bless the pilot and the family members of the recent accident.



Joe

bryanmmartin

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018

Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 12:54 pm Post subject: Zenith liability

It will be months before we have any valid information about the  

accident. There's no point in speculating about it now as that  

speculation will be based on almost total ignorance.



On Nov 11, 2009, at 12:42 PM, Joe wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I have been going over these posts and would like to know if anyone  

 knows what the probable cause of the recent accident was. I'm sorry  

 of I missed it. Could the pilot, who I think it was posted that he  

 was in his 70's, have had a serious medical condition that could  

 have overstressed the plane? If that were the case, maybe we are  

 getting way ahead of ourselves. I agree the accident may have caused  

 the Heinz family to announce the new changes way ahead of their  

 schedule. You can pull the wings off of ANY plane if the pilot is  

 incapacitated first.




	


-- 

Bryan Martin

N61BM, CH 601 XL,

RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.

do not archive.

_________________
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.

purplemoon99(at)bellsouth
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 4:06 pm Post subject: Zenith liability

Bryan what is the latest accident,I've been off line for awhile,also do run a revmaster carb?            JoeN101HD   601XL/RAM

   From: Bryan Martin <bryanmmartin(at)comcast.net>

To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Wed, November 11, 2009 3:50:49 PM

Subject: Re: Re: Zenith liability

--> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin <bryanmmartin(at)comcast.net (bryanmmartin(at)comcast.net)>

It will be months before we have any valid information about the accident. There's no point in speculating about it now as that speculation will be based on almost total ignorance.

On Nov 11, 2009, at 12:42 PM, Joe wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Joe" <backstagelive(at)gmail.com (backstagelive(at)gmail.com)>

 I have been going over these posts and would like to know if anyone knows what the probable cause of the recent accident was. I'm sorry of I missed it. Could the pilot, who I think it was posted that he was in his 70's, have had a serious medical condition that could have overstressed the plane? If that were the case, maybe we are getting way ahead of ourselves. I agree the accident may have caused the Heinz family to announce the new changes way ahead of their schedule. You can pull the wings off of ANY plane if the pilot is incapacitated first.

--Bryan Martin

N61BM, CH 601 XL,

RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.

do not archive.wwbsp;                     ==========

bryanmmartin

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018

Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 5:29 pm Post subject: Zenith liability

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id 091107X34009&key=1

On Nov 11, 2009, at 6:32 PM, purplemoon99(at)bellsouth.net wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Bryan what is the latest accident,I've been off line for awhile,also  

 do run a revmaster carb?            JoeN101HD   601XL/RAM




	


-- 

Bryan Martin

N61BM, CH 601 XL,

RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.

do not archive.

_________________
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.

paulrod36(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 3:28 pm Post subject: Zenith liability

<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]-->  C'mon, Bryan, we've never let that stop us before, why start now?

  

 Paul R

 Breathlessly awaiting the opportunity to gain more building and re-building  experience

 [quote]   ---

Display posts from previous:

	Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Zenith-List	All times are GMT - 8 Hours Goto page Previous 1, 2
Page 2 of 2

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum