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flushjohnson(at)charter.n
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 6:20 pm Post subject: Commercial/ 2nd class

I did not intend for this to get to the point it  has. I am  a   FAST WING pilot. Understand the problems dealing  with the FAA. I guess i didn't make myself clear. According to what has been  writtin Ihave to have to have a Com/2nd to fly. I would like to fly weather I am  compensated or not. I love Tto fly! The rerequirements prevent me from signing  up. The question I have is why to be a LEAD PILOT should have a Comm/2nd. I have  over 30 yrs. flying and no need for a comm. Over 2yrs Form,  over 150hrs  form , Would some one please enlighten me why I cant get a FAST LEAD card.  This requirement is stiffling the FAST orgination. Iwill now SHUT-up and wait  for the responces

brian

Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 643
Location: Sacramento, California, USA

Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 8:29 pm Post subject: Commercial/ 2nd class

forrest johnson wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   I did not intend for this to get to the point it has. I am  a   FAST 

 WING pilot. Understand the problems dealing with the FAA. I guess i 

 didn't make myself clear. According to what has been writtin Ihave to 

 have to have a Com/2nd to fly. I would like to fly weather I am 

 compensated or not. I love Tto fly! The rerequirements prevent me from 

 signing up. The question I have is why to be a LEAD PILOT should have a 

 Comm/2nd. I have over 30 yrs. flying and no need for a comm. Over 2yrs 

 Form,  over 150hrs form , Would some one please enlighten me why I 

 cant get a FAST LEAD card. This requirement is stiffling the FAST 

 orgination. Iwill now SHUT-up and wait for the responces


	


You can get a FAST lead card if you have the chops. You don't need a 

CSEL. You don't need a FAST lead card to lead a flight unless you want 

to do it in waivered airspace (during an actual air show).



The only reason you need the CSEL is if the airshow offers you some 

compensation, like gas for your airplane. No CSEL, no gas -- unless you 

want to risk getting cited by the FAA.



That is the whole thing in a nutshell.



Want to get trained to be a lead pilot? I would be happy to help you. 

You in northern California?



-- 

Brian Lloyd                         361 Catterline Way

brian-yak at lloyd dot com          Folsom, CA 95630

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

- Antoine de Saint-Exupery

_________________
Brian Lloyd
brian-yak at lloyd dot com
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)

I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery

dabear(at)damned.org
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 5:20 am Post subject: Commercial/ 2nd class

A little different than below.  You DO NOT need a FAST lead card to lead

a formation in waivered airspace, you only need a Wing card.  You can

fly wing, lead, and even lead a mass formation in waivered airspace with

just a FAST wing card.  A lead card allows you to sign annual formation

flight sheets, and recommendation forms for someone's wing and lead

card.  Also, a lead is typically the level that represents the ability

to instruct folks in formation flying.

DaBear

Brian Lloyd wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 forrest johnson wrote:

> I did not intend for this to get to the point it has. I am  a   FAST

> WING pilot. Understand the problems dealing with the FAA. I guess i

> didn't make myself clear. According to what has been writtin Ihave to

> have to have a Com/2nd to fly. I would like to fly weather I am

> compensated or not. I love Tto fly! The rerequirements prevent me

> from signing up. The question I have is why to be a LEAD PILOT should

> have a Comm/2nd. I have over 30 yrs. flying and no need for a comm.

> Over 2yrs Form,  over 150hrs form , Would some one please enlighten

> me why I cant get a FAST LEAD card. This requirement is stiffling the

> FAST orgination. Iwill now SHUT-up and wait for the responces

 You can get a FAST lead card if you have the chops. You don't need a

 CSEL. You don't need a FAST lead card to lead a flight unless you want

 to do it in waivered airspace (during an actual air show).

 The only reason you need the CSEL is if the airshow offers you some

 compensation, like gas for your airplane. No CSEL, no gas -- unless

 you want to risk getting cited by the FAA.

 That is the whole thing in a nutshell.

 Want to get trained to be a lead pilot? I would be happy to help you.

 You in northern California?

flushjohnson(at)charter.n
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 6:00 am Post subject: Commercial/ 2nd class

Thanks for the offer but I am in Fort Worth Tx. I could be wrong but I think 

the RPA Fast Manual requires 1 yr. wing and Com/2nd to get a

FAST lead. Please correct me if I am wrong. Thanks         Forrest 

flushjohnson(at)charter.net

---

brian

Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 643
Location: Sacramento, California, USA

Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 6:56 am Post subject: Commercial/ 2nd class

forrest johnson wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <flushjohnson(at)charter.net>

 

 Thanks for the offer but I am in Fort Worth Tx. I could be wrong but I 

 think the RPA Fast Manual requires 1 yr. wing and Com/2nd to get a

 FAST lead. Please correct me if I am wrong. Thanks         Forrest 

 flushjohnson(at)charter.net


	


Now, I remember the 1yr part but don't remember the CSEL part. (Getting 

old is hell.) I also remember the discusion going on several years back 

about allowing people with only wing qual to lead flights but didn't 

know the "rule" had officially changed.



(Thanks for the update Al.)



So the question is, do you really need a lead qualification?



-- 

Brian Lloyd                         361 Catterline Way

brian-yak at lloyd dot com          Folsom, CA 95630

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

- Antoine de Saint-Exupery

cjpilot710(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 8:11 am Post subject: Commercial/ 2nd class

Not quite true.  You can lead a flight with wingman FAST card in wavered airspace.  With is often done with guys who already have lots of formation time or have progressed.

  

 The main "benefit" of a Lead FAST card is that a Lead can recommend a pilot for a wing or lead card.  A lead thus become in essence the "guardian of the gate" so to speak.  You as a lead are vouching for the competence, skill, and judgment of the pilot you are recommending.  Not unlike an CFI sending a student up for his check ride.  Same responsibility.  The is no place for the "good old boy club" nor a person looking for power trip.

  

 On a separate note:  I'm out flying the B-17 right now and as so often happens in this business we witnessed one of those surreptitious moments.  We were in DTS a few days ago, when one of the Doolittle Raider showed up.  He is 91 and still swims 5 days a week at the local Y pool.  He don't hear well, but is sharp and very much a gentleman.  We took him for a ride in our B-25.  As the B-25 circled back over the field, a great American Baud Eagle sour over head and stayed there until the B-25 returned.

  

 Jim "Pappy" Goolsby

  

  

  

  

  

  

  

 

--

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 9:43 am Post subject: Commercial/ 2nd class

Forrest,

Only RPA requires CSEL to be a FAST Lead. 

Doc

 	  Quote: 	
		   [Original Message]

 From: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak(at)lloyd.com>

 To: <yak-list(at)matronics.com>

 Date: 3/23/2006 10:34:47 PM

 Subject: Re: Commercial/ 2nd class

 forrest johnson wrote:

 > I did not intend for this to get to the point it has. I am  a   FAST 

 > WING pilot. Understand the problems dealing with the FAA. I guess i 

 > didn't make myself clear. According to what has been writtin Ihave to 

 > have to have a Com/2nd to fly. I would like to fly weather I am 

 > compensated or not. I love Tto fly! The rerequirements prevent me from 

 > signing up. The question I have is why to be a LEAD PILOT should have a 

 > Comm/2nd. I have over 30 yrs. flying and no need for a comm. Over 2yrs 

 > Form,  over 150hrs form , Would some one please enlighten me why I 

 > cant get a FAST LEAD card. This requirement is stiffling the FAST 

 > orgination. Iwill now SHUT-up and wait for the responces

 You can get a FAST lead card if you have the chops. You don't need a 

 CSEL. You don't need a FAST lead card to lead a flight unless you want 

 to do it in waivered airspace (during an actual air show).

 The only reason you need the CSEL is if the airshow offers you some 

 compensation, like gas for your airplane. No CSEL, no gas -- unless you 

 want to risk getting cited by the FAA.

 That is the whole thing in a nutshell.

 Want to get trained to be a lead pilot? I would be happy to help you. 

 You in northern California?

 -- 

 Brian Lloyd                         361 Catterline Way

 brian-yak at lloyd dot com          Folsom, CA 95630

 +1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)

 I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

 - Antoine de Saint-Exupery

gus.fraser(at)gs.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 9:53 am Post subject: Commercial/ 2nd class

Urghhhh!



Oh I get it a CSEL has a second class medical and therefore better eyes to

see where he is going, those mountains can be a bugger to spot.



Here we go again 



Gus 



--

dabear(at)damned.org
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 9:55 am Post subject: Commercial/ 2nd class

I believe the Commercial requirement for Lead is a national

requirement.  Not just RPA.  However, the requirements can be waived by

the National FAST board.  Not saying they will be.  Specific

requirements like 1 year as wing, 1,000 hour, etc can be waived but some

signatory groups are more accepting to supporting waivers than others. 



DaBear



Roger Kemp wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



Forrest,

Only RPA requires CSEL to be a FAST Lead. 

Doc

  



>[Original Message]

>From: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak(at)lloyd.com>

>To: <yak-list(at)matronics.com>

>Date: 3/23/2006 10:34:47 PM

>Subject: Re: Commercial/ 2nd class

>

>

>

>forrest johnson wrote:

>    

>

>>I did not intend for this to get to the point it has. I am  a   FAST 

>>WING pilot. Understand the problems dealing with the FAA. I guess i 

>>didn't make myself clear. According to what has been writtin Ihave to 

>>have to have a Com/2nd to fly. I would like to fly weather I am 

>>compensated or not. I love Tto fly! The rerequirements prevent me from 

>>signing up. The question I have is why to be a LEAD PILOT should have a 

>>Comm/2nd. I have over 30 yrs. flying and no need for a comm. Over 2yrs 

>>Form,  over 150hrs form , Would some one please enlighten me why I 

>>cant get a FAST LEAD card. This requirement is stiffling the FAST 

>>orgination. Iwill now SHUT-up and wait for the responces

>>

dabear(at)damned.org
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 10:29 am Post subject: Commercial/ 2nd class

I hope Blade or one of the other check pilots jumps in here, but until

they do, I'll stick my nose in it.  (not like I'm shy about sharing my

opinion   BTW, the Lead does not require a 2nd class medical, only

requires a 3rd.



So, if you look at the requirements and the responsibilities for lead

versus the abilities for wing they are two different directions.  Wing

allows formation flight into waivered airspace (flying wing position, or

leading a flight).  Outside of waivered airspace there is no requirement

for wing or lead qualification to fly formation (wing or lead). 



The expectation of Lead is to recommend pilots for check rides (wing or

lead), sign annual activity reports, and to be able to instruct pilots

wanting to fly formation (wing or lead).  The thought behind commercial

requirement is tied to the perceived higher level skill required for

commercial than private AND the expectation that the lead is someone who

is flying at a higher skill level than wing, AND can coach pilots to

bring their skills up as well.



The requirements for 1k hours, commercial, 1 year as wing, etc. are

reasonable expectations for setting expected skill levels needed to fly

lead and also set "mindset" expectations of a person who will be

reviewing/coach other pilots performance.  While debriefing a formation

flight, everyone's views are heard, the lead qualified pilots are

expected to provide feedback/coaching that enables pilot skill

improvement, not just acknowledgment of areas that need improvement.

Waivers to the lead qualification requirements are available through the

RPA check pilot group but must be ultimately approved by the national

FAST board.  So the RPA check pilot AND the national board must approve

the waiver.  The waiver must be requested AND approved PRIOR to the

check ride.



All of this info is on the RPA website and the qualifications are from

the National FAST document, not an RPA specific document.  The only RPA

specific qualification I know of that is different from the national

standard is a requirement for a FAM flight for those FAST card holders

coming from other signatories into RPA.



Disclaimer: I'm not a lead pilot, void where prohibited, your mileage

may vary, and weight before cooking.



Dabear



Fraser, Gus wrote:



[quote]



Urghhhh!



Oh I get it a CSEL has a second class medical and therefore better eyes to

see where he is going, those mountains can be a bugger to spot.



Here we go again 



Gus 



--

dsavarese(at)elmore.rr.co
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 11:21 am Post subject: Commercial/ 2nd class

If according to RPA rules a FAST Lead must have a commercial ticket, then 

lead must also have a 2nd class medical.

Dennis



---

brian

Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 643
Location: Sacramento, California, USA

Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 12:08 pm Post subject: Commercial/ 2nd class

A. Dennis Savarese wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <dsavarese(at)elmore.rr.com>

 

 If according to RPA rules a FAST Lead must have a commercial ticket, 

 then lead must also have a 2nd class medical.


	


Well, not necessarily. You could have the CSEL and be operating with a 

third-class medical. As such you could not exercise the privileges of a 

commercial pilot but you WOULD hold a CSEL. That was my status when I 

got my lead patch at Spencer.



Brian Lloyd

brian HYPHEN yak AT lloyd DOT com

dsavarese(at)elmore.rr.co
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 1:05 pm Post subject: Commercial/ 2nd class

Question - how does one get their commercial check ride without showing the 

FAA Designated Examiner a 2nd class medical?  If you can't exercise the 

privileges of the commercial without the 2nd class medical, then what would 

be the benefit of having the commercial ticket to begin with?  ie: a person 

could not accept the proverbial fuel, hotel, meals etc. at an event without 

it.

Dennis



---

flushjohnson(at)charter.n
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 3:44 pm Post subject: Commercial/ 2nd class

Thank you Dennis! Finally the absurditity of this rule is coming to light! I 

meet all of the requirements for a lead, in addition I own and fly a Cessna 

414A which I take a Inst. Prof. check ride wheather I need it or not every 6 

months.    I also hold a Phase 17 wings certificate and working on #18 which 

I get in Sept.This is the quality of profesionalism I hold myself to.It just 

PISSES ME OFF to have to get a Comm/2nd when all I want is to get a FAST 

LEAD card. I don't give a hoot about waivered airspace. We have close to 20 

planes in Tx and only one lead- Terry Swalinski. Tex. is a big state and the 

lack of lead pilots is really hurting us as a group. I thank every one for 

their coments. FORREST

---

netmaster15(at)juno.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 8:13 pm Post subject: Commercial/ 2nd class

Pappy, 

     What the hell is a 'SURREPTITIOUS' moment?  Is that  anything like a ' serendipitous' moment? Or are we having a SENIOR  MOMENT?

 'Older Than Dirt' wants to know; 

  

 Regards

  

 CLIFF

 On Fri, 24 Mar 2006 11:11:24 -0500 cjpilot710(at)aol.com (cjpilot710(at)aol.com) writes:

 [quote]         Not quite true.  You can lead a flight with wingman FAST    card in wavered airspace.  With is    often done with guys who already have lots of formation time or have    progressed.

    

   The main "benefit" of a Lead FAST    card is that a Lead can recommend a pilot for a    wing or lead card.  A lead thus become in essence the "guardian of the    gate" so to speak.  You as a lead are vouching for the competence,    skill, and judgment of the pilot you are    recommending.  Not unlike an CFI    sending a student up for his check ride.  Same responsibility.  The is no place for the    "good old boy club" nor a person looking for power trip.

    

   On a separate note:  I'm out    flying the B-17 right now and as so often    happens in this business we witnessed one    of those surreptitious moments.  We were in DTS a few days ago, when one of the Doolittle    Raider showed up.  He is 91 and still swims 5 days a week at the local Y    pool.  He don't hear well, but is sharp and very much a gentleman.  We took him for a ride in our B-25.  As the B-25    circled back over the field, a great American Baud Eagle sour over head and stayed there until the B-25 returned.

    

   Jim "Pappy" Goolsby

    

    

    

    

    

    

    

 

--

cjpilot710(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 8:17 pm Post subject: Commercial/ 2nd class

Gentlemen,

 Having a 414 and taking the instrument proficiency check every 6 months is not the same flying as flying formation.  They have nothing in common.  If you 'don't give a hoot about flying in wavered airspace' what good is having a FAST lead card since having a FAST card is only good in wavered airspace?  In order to get a lead card you must be recommended by a FAST lead or a FAST checkpilot.  This is not handed to you just because you feel you have the correct experience.  

  

 For your info in order to take a commercial pilot flight check, you MUST have current 2nd class medical-period.  If you let that laps AFTER your flight check you can not exercise you commercial privileges.  BTW note your license says "privilege" not "rights".  There never been a "right" to fly only the right to qualify for those privileges. Its been that way since day one.

  

As far as having a shortage of leads in TX, this is the first I've heard of this.  This is NOT RPA's falut.  It is up to the individual to qualify for that position, not RPA to hand out cards.  Also any FAST signatory (T-34, NATA, CAF, VAC, etc) lead or checkpilot can recomme  nd a pilot for a wing or lead card.  It has always been this way.

  

 Jim "Pappy" Goolsby

  .AOLPlainTextBody {     margin: 0px;     font-family: Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, Sans-Serif;     font-size: 12px;      color: #000;      background-color: #fff;  }  .AOLPlainTextBody pre {     font-size: 9pt; }  .AOLInlineAttachment {     margin: 10px; }  .AOLAttachmentHeader {     border-bottom: 2px solid #E9EAEB;     background: #F9F9F9; }  .AOLAttachmentHeader .Title {     font: 11px Tahoma;     font-weight: bold;     color: #666666;     background: #E9EAEB;      padding: 3px 0px 1px 10px; }  .AOLAttachmentHeader .FieldLabel {     font: 11px Tahoma;      font-weight: bold;     color: #666666;     padding: 1px 10px 1px 9px; }  .AOLAttachmentHeader .FieldValue {     font: 11px Tahoma;      color: #333333; }    --> Yak-List message posted by: "forrest johnson" <flushjohnson(at)charter.net ([email]flushjohnson%40charter.net[/email])> 

 

Thank you Dennis! Finally the absurditity of this rule is coming to light! I meet all of the requirements for a lead, in addition I own and fly a Cessna 414A which I take a Inst. Prof. check ride wheather I need it or not every 6 months. I also hold a Phase 17 wings certificate and working on #18 which I get in Sept.This is the quality of profesionalism I hold myself to.It just PISSES ME OFF to have to get a Comm/2nd when all I want is to get a FAST LEAD card. I don't give a hoot about waivered airspace. We have close to 20 planes in Tx and only one lead- Terry Swalinski. Tex. is a big state and the lack of lead pilots is really hurting us as a group. I thank every one for their coments. FORREST 

---

brian

Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 643
Location: Sacramento, California, USA

Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 10:15 pm Post subject: Commercial/ 2nd class

A. Dennis Savarese wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <dsavarese(at)elmore.rr.com>

 

 Question - how does one get their commercial check ride without showing 

 the FAA Designated Examiner a 2nd class medical?  


	


You show a 3rd-class medical.



 	  Quote: 	
		   If you can't exercise 

 the privileges of the commercial without the 2nd class medical, then 

 what would be the benefit of having the commercial ticket to begin 

 with?  ie: a person could not accept the proverbial fuel, hotel, meals 

 etc. at an event without it.


	


No but you could pass the check ride and then get a 2nd-class medical 

when you need it. That is what I have been doing off and on for 30 

years. When I am not doing anything that might require me to exercise 

the privileges of the commercial ticket, I just get a 3rd-class medical. 

Or I get a 2nd-class and the not renew it for two years meaning it 

reverts to a 3rd-class in the second year.



For example, a commercial is a prerequisite to a CFI. And it is legal to 

instruct with only a 3rd-class medical. For example, I can teach my kids 

to fly but I am not being compensated so I don't need the 2nd-class 

medical. Simple.



Dennis, it is the FAA way: stupid. What more do you need to know?



-- 

Brian Lloyd                         361 Catterline Way

brian-yak at lloyd dot com          Folsom, CA 95630

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

- Antoine de Saint-Exupery

brian

Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 643
Location: Sacramento, California, USA

Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 10:46 pm Post subject: Commercial/ 2nd class

cjpilot710(at)aol.com wrote:

 >Gentlemen,

 > Having a 414 and taking the instrument proficiency check every 6 months

 > is not the same flying as flying formation.

And flying chandeles and lazy-eights is not the same as formation flying

either. And I can learn to fly chandeles, lazy-eights, and

eights-on-pylons without ever taking the Comm checkride. One can

certainly have the experience and capability without having the certificate.

 > They have nothing in common.

Other than showing diligence and good airmanship, which is really what

the CSEL requirement for FAST lead is all about. It seemed to someone 

like a good way to try to verify that people have the chops.

 > If you 'don't give a hoot about flying in wavered airspace'

 > what good is having a FAST lead card since having a FAST card is only

 > good in wavered airspace?  In order to get a lead card you must be

 > recommended by a FAST lead or a FAST checkpilot.  This is not handed to

 > you just because you feel you have the correct experience.

I don't think Forrest wants anyone to "hand out cards". I think he is

perfectly willing to demonstrate his capability in order to *earn* his

FAST lead rating. He just doesn't have the CSEL.

And since they don't have any official lead pilots in the neighborhood

they can't get credit for flying formation and can't keep their FAST

ratings current. They also can't recommend anyone to get their FAST rating.

Forrest has a point: if he has the chops, something any lead or check

pilot can verify for themselves, then the requirement for a commercial

ticket is superfluous.

I don't have an ATP but I am a good pilot, possibly better than some

guys sitting in the left seat of some airliners. Having the ATP does not

confer some kind of proof that you are better, only that you have taken

the test.

Since we go through the process of giving check rides to people who want

a FAST wing or FAST lead certification, the requirement for at least

CSEL is superfluous.

 > For your info in order to take a commercial pilot flight check, you MUST

 > have current 2nd class medical-period.  If you let that laps AFTER your

 > flight check you can not exercise you commercial privileges.  BTW note

 > your license says "privilege" not "rights".  There never been a "right"

 > to fly only the *_right to qualify for those privileges_*. Its been that

 > way since day one.

And who confers the privilege? (This is an orthogonal discussion but I

will comment.) The concept is not that people have an inalienable right

to fly airplanes but they do have an inalienable right to demonstrate

they have the skill and then continue to fly as long as they continue to

demonstrate that skill. The problem with using the term "privilege" is

that it implies that you get to do so at someone else's whim. That is

what is wrong. That is what the FAA did to Bob Hoover. Even when he went

back and took all the tests again and demonstrated his continued

proficiency, they refused to give him back his ratings. That was *WRONG*.

Now back to the discussion at hand.

 > As far as having a shortage of leads in TX, this is the first I've heard

 > of this.  This is NOT RPA's falut.  It is up to the individual to

 > qualify for that position, not RPA to hand out cards.  Also any FAST

 > signatory (T-34, NATA, CAF, VAC, etc) lead or checkpilot can recommend

 > a pilot for a wing or lead card.  It has always been this way.

Is it possible that someone without a CSEL could actually fly an

aircraft to the level of skill we would like to see for a lead rating?

It strikes me that it is possible and even likely. The ability to fly a

chandele, a lazy-eight, or eights-on-pylons does not translate into the

ability to do a rejoin or recognize the need for an undershoot. They do

not convey the ability to recognize how to maneuver your formation to

get it where you want it, when you want it there. These are skills one

learns from flying formation, not from getting a CSEL. Therefore, the

requirement for the commercial rating is superfluous.

-- 

Brian Lloyd                         361 Catterline Way

brian-yak at lloyd dot com          Folsom, CA 95630

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)

I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

- Antoine de Saint-Exupery

dsavarese(at)elmore.rr.co
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 25, 2006 5:00 am Post subject: Commercial/ 2nd class

Brian,

Your point is made.  This entire discussion is not about how to obtain a 

commercial and possibly circumvent the 2nd class medical issue.   The fact 

of the matter is anyone in our group wanting to participate in events which 

offer fuel, hotel, food, transportation etc. must have a current commercial 

certificate and 2nd class medical.  As you know, they are married together. 

It is useless to have a commercial without a 2nd class medical and also 

useless to have a 2nd class medical without a commercial certificate.



If anyone wishes to challenge the requirement to have a 2nd class medical to 

take their commercial check ride, then rather than continuing this bantering 

back and forth discussion, call an FAA Designated Examiner and pose the 

question - "What is required for me to take the commercial check ride?" 

Then post whatever answer is given.  What one does after you earn your 

commercial certificate with regards to your medical is up to the individual. 

I will agree with one point you made.  If you don't have a current 2nd class 

medical to go along with your commercial certificate, you are not suppose to 

be exercising the privileges of the commercial certificate.

Dennis

---

PeteAbbott(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 25, 2006 6:14 am Post subject: Commercial/ 2nd class

Thank you Dennis.  Amen, let us put this to rest.

  

 Pete

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