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ashontz
Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723
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 Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 2:26 pm Post subject: Re: My figures don't compute |
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Very true. More like 500 lbs of fuselage supported by each wing at gross weight.
As a decent average for calculating the moment arm of the spar around the attach bolts to the center spar, figuring lift at around 74 inches out (center of the span) sounds about right give or take for a rough estimate.
Those wing spar to center spar bolts sound like they're more than sufficient.
| bryanmmartin wrote: | Another point to remember is that the wings and included fuel make up a
significant fraction of the gross weight of the airplane. The weight of
the wings is not transmitted through the main spar attachment in flight.
The swings support their own weight plus half the weight of the
fuselage, instead of each wing supporting 660 lbs at the wing root, it's
more like 500 lbs. This further improves the load situation at the wing
root.
| Quote: | You should also remember that the lift is not distributed evenly over the length of the wing. The wing is tapered so the lift distribution also tapers off as you approach the tip. In fact, a tapered wing like this produces a fair approximation of an elliptical lift distribution. This puts the centroid of the lift closer to the root than the mid span point and reduces the lever arm and, therefore, the torque at the root. I suspect the centroid of lift is closer to one third the span than one half, say 50 inches instead of 74. It's been a long time since I used my aero engineering training, so this is just a rough estimate off the top of my head.
I'm not worried about that joint failing.
ashontz wrote:
>
>
> There are six bolts in there. I think you'd need to redo the analysis using the six bolts. I was going to get my Statics textbook out for this one myself, but I don't think this is a problem, albeit, I'd be damn sure to make sure those bolts were drilled right on the money AND reamed which it of course does call for. Even so, the NTSB never mentioned that joint failing. In fact, the folding occurred further outboard. I think that joint is fine, albeit pretty hairy looking at first glance.
>
> A rough calculation around that fixed center virtual pivot would give about 13,577lbs on one bolt, divided by 6 bolts is 2,262lbs, times 6Gs is still only 13,577lbs per bolt.
>
> That joint is fine.
> sonar1(at)cox.net wrote:
>> I ran some figures on the XL wing attachments and do not get good answers.
>>
>> Can someone who has done statics calculations more recently than my 48 years ago check my work and tell me where I went wrong?
>>
>> Not trying to revive last weeks discussions on the list - just want to talk to an engineer before I go flying.
>>
>> Do not archive ....................Fred Sanford....N9601....98%.......California
>
>
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--
Bryan Martin
B.S.A.E, U of Mich, '91
Zenith 601XL N61BM
Ram Subaru, Stratus redrive
Do Not Archive |
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jmaynard
Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 394
Location: Fairmont, MN (FRM)
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| Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 2:37 pm Post subject: My figures don't compute |
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On Mon, Mar 17, 2008 at 03:35:28PM -0400, Bryan Martin wrote:
| Quote: | You should also remember that the lift is not distributed evenly over
the length of the wing. The wing is tapered so the lift distribution
also tapers off as you approach the tip. In fact, a tapered wing like
this produces a fair approximation of an elliptical lift distribution.
This puts the centroid of the lift closer to the root than the mid span
point and reduces the lever arm and, therefore, the torque at the root.
I suspect the centroid of lift is closer to one third the span than one
half, say 50 inches instead of 74. It's been a long time since I used my
aero engineering training, so this is just a rough estimate off the top
of my head.
|
That much? There's not very much taper to the wing, after all; it's not a
Piper hershey bar, but it's no F-104, either.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June)
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Jay Maynard, K5ZC
AMD Zodiac XLi N55ZC |
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planecrazydld(at)yahoo.co
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| Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 3:40 pm Post subject: My figures don't compute |
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the twist built into the ailerons has some washout effect - and that does contribute to a more elliptical distribution than an untwisted rectangular planform.
Jay Maynard <jmaynard(at)conmicro.com> wrote:[quote] --> Zenith-List message posted by: Jay Maynard
On Mon, Mar 17, 2008 at 03:35:28PM -0400, Bryan Martin wrote:
[quote] You should also remember that the lift is not distributed evenly over
the length of the wing. The wing is tapered so the lift distribution
also tapers off as you approach the tip. In fact, a tapered wing like
this produces a fair approximation of an elliptical lift distribution.
This puts the centroid of the lift closer to the root than the mid span
point and reduces the lever arm and, therefore, the torque at the root.
I suspect the [quote][b]
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Joemotis(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 3:46 pm Post subject: My figures don't compute |
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| Quote: | | This entire thread is an excellent example of mental masturbation. |
How many people on this site learned to use computers downloading "ahem"
On a 28.8 modem??
The DELETE key.
Live it.
Love it
Use it.
A cookie for the person who knows what movie that is paraphrased from.. For the love of all things Holy, DO NOT ARCHIVE
| Quote: | The truest power is sharing knowledge.
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It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms and advice on AOL Money & Finance.
[quote][b]
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kmccune
Joined: 22 Sep 2007
Posts: 577
Location: Wisconsin, USA
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| Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 4:02 pm Post subject: Re: My figures don't compute |
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Thats a good point, something I knew but I didn't think of it that way.
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_________________
“Always do what you are afraid to do.”
R.W. Emerson (1803-1882)
"Real freedom is the sustained act of being an individual." WW - 2009
"Life is a good deal...it's worth it" Feb 1969
Dorothy McCune |
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craig(at)craigandjean.com
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| Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 4:05 pm Post subject: My figures don't compute |
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I learned on a teletype with a 110 baud modem. Do I get a brownie?
-- Craig (“you had a gravel pit, we used to dream of having a gravel pit…”)
Do not archive
From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Joemotis(at)aol.com
Sent: Monday, March 17, 2008 5:44 PM
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: My figures don't compute
| Quote: |
This entire thread is an excellent example of mental masturbation. |
How many people on this site learned to use computers downloading "ahem"
On a 28.8 modem??
The DELETE key.
Live it.
Love it
Use it.
A cookie for the person who knows what movie that is paraphrased from.. For the love of all things Holy, DO NOT ARCHIVE
| Quote: |
The truest power is sharing knowledge. |
It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms and advice on AOL Money & Finance.
| Quote: | | http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List |
0123456789
[quote][b]
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Terry Phillips
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 346
Location: Corvallis, MT
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| Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 4:27 pm Post subject: My figures don't compute |
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Joe
Some time ago you posted on CH601.org your design for installing fuel pumps in 601 wings. I am doing something similar. I would like to know if your 601 is flying yet? If so, how have the wing pump(s) worked out?
Terry
At 07:43 PM 3/17/2008 -0400, you wrote:
[quote]
This entire thread is an excellent example of mental masturbation.
How many people on this site learned to use computers downloading "ahem"
On a 28.8 modem??
The DELETE key.
Live it.
Love it
Use it.
A cookie for the person who knows what movie that is paraphrased from.. For the love of all things Holy, DO NOT ARCHIVE
The truest power is sharing knowledge.
It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms and advice on AOL Money & Finance.
[b]
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_________________
Terry Phillips
Corvallis, MT
ttp44<at>rkymtn.net
Zenith 601XL/Jab 3300 slow build kit - Tail feathers done; working on the wings. |
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Terry Phillips
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 346
Location: Corvallis, MT
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| Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 4:35 pm Post subject: My figures don't compute |
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I learned on a GE225 "main frame" submitting decks of IBM cards (purchased from the bookstore--my kids used them for notes for 15 or so years after) punched on an 026 key punch. After that I moved up to an IBM 1620.
Terry
do not archive
At 07:43 PM 3/17/2008 -0400, you wrote: | Quote: | This entire thread is an excellent example of mental masturbation.
How many people on this site learned to use computers downloading "ahem"
On a 28.8 modem??
The DELETE key.
Live it.
Love it
Use it. |
Terry Phillips
ttp44~at~rkymtn.net
Corvallis MT
601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail, flaps, & ailerons are done; working on the wings
http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/ [quote][b]
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_________________
Terry Phillips
Corvallis, MT
ttp44<at>rkymtn.net
Zenith 601XL/Jab 3300 slow build kit - Tail feathers done; working on the wings. |
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Joemotis(at)aol.com
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 4:44 pm Post subject: My figures don't compute |
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Unfortunately, I had to sell the kit . The installation on the one wing was mocked up for fitting and it worked just as planned.
I did end up with a nice two and a half acre parcel with the taxiway right to it out at Valley of the Eagle airpark in Aguila AZ.
I am planning on a 701 this time around. I was very lucky to get this place; similar lots are going for 4X what I paid for mine.
It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms and advice on AOL Money & Finance.
[quote][b]
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Joemotis(at)aol.com
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 4:48 pm Post subject: My figures don't compute |
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I am going to date myself severely here, I learned on the AN/UYK 62(V) Snap II systems I installed on 50 or so Navy surface combatants.The punch card reader was located down in the ships stores..
Oh that wonderful greenscreen.
It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms and advice on AOL Money & Finance.
[quote][b]
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randy(at)rjhebertassoc.co
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| Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 5:03 pm Post subject: My figures don't compute |
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Terry
You beat me I learned on the 1620
Do you still have your slide rule?
My kids want to know what the thing does
Randall J Hebert
CH701
From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Terry Phillips
Sent: Monday, March 17, 2008 7:31 PM
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: My figures don't compute
I learned on a GE225 "main frame" submitting decks of IBM cards (purchased from the bookstore--my kids used them for notes for 15 or so years after) punched on an 026 key punch. After that I moved up to an IBM 1620.
Terry
do not archive
At 07:43 PM 3/17/2008 -0400, you wrote: | Quote: | This entire thread is an excellent example of mental masturbation.
How many people on this site learned to use computers downloading "ahem"
On a 28.8 modem??
The DELETE key.
Live it.
Love it
Use it. |
Terry Phillips
ttp44~at~rkymtn.net
Corvallis MT
601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail, flaps, & ailerons are done; working on the wings
http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/ [quote]
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
[b]
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notsew_evets(at)frontiern
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 6:04 pm Post subject: My figures don't compute |
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OK, I ll admit I used what we called smoke signals. Three puffs and then two puffs equaled 5 or so. When my wife totaled our check book there were no puffs left.
So far I have 54 thounds of puffs invested in my 601 XL...
[quote] ---
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cleone(at)rr1.net
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 2:52 pm Post subject: My figures don't compute |
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At 07:21 PM 3/17/2008, you wrote:
| Quote: | Joe
Some time ago you posted on CH601.org your design for installing fuel pumps in 601 wings. I am doing something similar. I would like to know if your 601 is flying yet? If so, how have the wing pump(s) worked out?
Terry |
Terry, I do not know you but wish to offer a thought for you. Eight years ago I put fuel pumps in the wing lockers and they worked fine. At the time it was my desire to keep from having a tank in the cockpit. Then later I became acquainted with William Wynne and now don't even have pressured fuel lines in the cabin. The object is to prevent fire in case of an accident. I haven't done it yet but will use an oil pressure switch to disable the fuel pumps anytime there is no oil pressure. An extra switch may be used for starting the engine. Think it over and do as you like.
Cleone
| Quote: | At 07:43 PM 3/17/2008 -0400, you wrote:
Checked by AVG.
3/18/2008 8:10 AM |
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Terry Phillips
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 346
Location: Corvallis, MT
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| Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 9:32 pm Post subject: My figures don't compute |
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Cleone
I'm glad to hear that wing pumps are working for you, because I am committed to that approach. I spent this afternoon making up the channels to mount the gascolator in the wing. I like your (WW's) idea of not having pressurized gas in the cockpit, but, I'm curious how you got the fuel lines from the wing root to the engine compartment w/o going through the cockpit. Did you run the lines on the outside of the fuselage? Do you still have a fuel select valve, or do you just select the tank by choosing the pump? If you still have a fuel select valve, is it mounted in the engine compartment?
Regarding the oil pressure switch--the Facet pump docs recommend the switch also. But I was wondering about starting the engine. Or, more importantly, restarting the engine, if, say, I run dry on one tank in the air and the engine stops. That's just when I would want a boost pump to work. That's where your suggestion of an over-ride switch comes in. Then question becomes one of ergonomics plus safety. Using a momentary-contact switch for the oil pressure switch over-ride would have the advantage that I wouldn't leave the pump running inadvertently after a failed engine restart. But having to hold the switch while I was going through the restart sequence could prove to be a major distraction just when I need to concentrate on flying the airplane. Have you thought out how to implement the over-ride switch? I'd appreciate your thoughts (or anyone else's, for that matter).
Terry
At 05:48 PM 3/19/2008 -0500, you wrote:
| Quote: | | Quote: | Joe
Some time ago you posted on CH601.org your design for installing fuel pumps in 601 wings. I am doing something similar. I would like to know if your 601 is flying yet? If so, how have the wing pump(s) worked out?
Terry |
Terry, I do not know you but wish to offer a thought for you. Eight years ago I put fuel pumps in the wing lockers and they worked fine. At the time it was my desire to keep from having a tank in the cockpit. Then later I became acquainted with William Wynne and now don't even have pressured fuel lines in the cabin. The object is to prevent fire in case of an accident. I haven't done it yet but will use an oil pressure switch to disable the fuel pumps anytime there is no oil pressure. An extra switch may be used for starting the engine. Think it over and do as you like.
Cleone |
Terry Phillips
ttp44~at~rkymtn.net
Corvallis MT
601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail, flaps, & ailerons are done; working on the wings
http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/ [quote][b]
| | - The Matronics Zenith-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List |
|
_________________
Terry Phillips
Corvallis, MT
ttp44<at>rkymtn.net
Zenith 601XL/Jab 3300 slow build kit - Tail feathers done; working on the wings. |
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