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ELT

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bwalker11(at)charter.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 5:15 am Post subject: ELT

I'm curious as to a consensus of opinions on the use  of ELTs in CJs & YAKs.  Are they required equipment, or excluded under  CFR part 91.207 (f) (? 

  

 Bill Walker

george(at)gesoco.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 5:54 am Post subject: ELT

I take it to  mean that while exhibiting the aircraft it is not necessary. I would assume that  during the "proficiency flight" you do need one. I would hate to argue the point  with an FAA official. 

  

 

George  Coy

President

Gesoco Industries Inc.

629 Airport Rd.

Swanton, VT  05488

TEL 802-868-5633

FAX 802-868-4465

Web Site  www.gesoco.com

e-mail George(at)gesoco.com

Franklin County Airport  (KFSO)  [quote]   --

dsavarese(at)elmore.rr.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 5:58 am Post subject: ELT

Bill,

 Not required per 91.207 (f) (.  DAR's or FAA Inspectors  would not issue Airworthiness Certificates and OL's if they were a required  piece of equipment and were not installed.

 Dennis

  

  

 ---

gus.fraser(at)gs.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 6:45 am Post subject: ELT

But the obvious next question is why would you not have  one. Even though the chances of the school kids with revolving antennas finding  me is remote it is better than nothing.

  

 Gus



 [quote]         From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com    [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of A. Dennis    Savarese

Sent: Monday, February 06, 2006 8:57 AM

To:    yak-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re:    ELT

   

   Bill,

   Not required per 91.207 (f) (.  DAR's or FAA    Inspectors would not issue Airworthiness Certificates and OL's if they were a    required piece of equipment and were not installed.

   Dennis

    

    

   ---

BasiliereR(at)ci.boulder.
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 7:05 am Post subject: ELT

The added weight...

  

 times 9.5 g's = a bunch  :0)

  

 do not archive



 	  Quote: 	
		  >> gus.fraser(at)gs.com 2/6/2006 7:43:30 AM >>>


	


  But the obvious next question is why would you not have one. Even though the chances of the school kids with revolving antennas finding me is remote it is better than nothing.

  

 Gus



 [quote]   From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of A. Dennis Savarese

Sent: Monday, February 06, 2006 8:57 AM

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: ELT

 

 Bill,

 Not required per 91.207 (f) (.  DAR's or FAA Inspectors would not issue Airworthiness Certificates and OL's if they were a required piece of equipment and were not installed.

 Dennis

  

  

 ---

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 7:05 am Post subject: ELT

My thoughts also. Now if you are carrying that new fangled GPS locator beacon. And, you are have the physical capacity to activate it after bouncing off terra firma, the rotor heads will find you alittle faster. 

 Doc

  

 



  

 [quote] ---

cjpilot710(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 7:57 am Post subject: ELT

Gus and all,

  

 Though it may not have your intentions to down play CAP cadets  abilities with directions finders looking for an ELT, I have to step up for  them.  For 13 years I was the senior cadet commander for the Danbury  Squadron.  I watched a number of my cadets go off the to different  academies and on to productive lives.  The proudest moments in my life was  watching these school kids after very little training, do some remarkable  things.  When it came to direction finders, they were tenacious at  times.  I've seen them track down a discarded ELT in the garbage cans in a  very dangerous section of New Heaven.  Heard their frustration of trying to  find a ELT in a wreck airplane that was on a flat bed truck on it's way to a  salvage yard.  99% of the times these ELT's were harping for no reason and  the USAF wanted them turned off NOW, often at 2 or 3  am. 

  

 The fact of the matter is, IF you go down somewhere remote, the  only folks who will come looking for you is the CAP.  All volenteers, some  good and some not nearly good enough. The only thing paid for by the goverment is the gas and oil during  the mission.  They don't even pay for the training.   

  

 In every real mission I ever participate in the cadets were very  much a part of it.  If nothing more than checking local airports for the  missing plane.  But a lot of times the ELT was not and maybe  still isn't the best locating machine. They don't work under water (2  missions).  They don't work when directly impacted (2 mission)  They  don't work with dead batteries (1 mission).  They are almost impossible to  find with the antenna shoved into the ground in the wreckage or under high  tension lines (2 mission).  And sometimes they are purposely turned off (1  mission that was a murder / suicide).

  

 The ELT?  Check and test it often.  Keep fresh  batteries in it.  And pray to God you have some bright, tenacious, pimple  face, 14 year old, hot on your trail when things go array.  You ain't  go'n to find no senator, congressmen, mayor, chief of police, cop, USAF, Navy,  or other bureaucracies looking for you.

  

 Jim "Pappy" Goolsby

  

  

  

  

  

 But the  obvious next question is why would you not have one. Even though the chances of  the school kids with revolving antennas finding me is remote it is better than  nothing.

  

 Gus

gus.fraser(at)gs.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 8:08 am Post subject: ELT

Jim my comments where  more toward the technology and it's limited range rather than the CAP it's self.  

  

 Gus



  	  Quote: 	
		           From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com    [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of    cjpilot710(at)aol.com

Sent: Monday, February 06, 2006 10:55    AM

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re:    ELT

   

      Gus and all,

    

   Though it may not have your intentions to down play CAP cadets    abilities with directions finders looking for an ELT, I have to step up for    them.  For 13 years I was the senior cadet commander for the Danbury    Squadron.  I watched a number of my cadets go off the to different    academies and on to productive lives.  The proudest moments in my life    was watching these school kids after very little training, do some remarkable    things.  When it came to direction finders, they were tenacious at    times.  I've seen them track down a discarded ELT in the garbage cans in    a very dangerous section of New Heaven.  Heard their frustration of    trying to find a ELT in a wreck airplane that was on a flat bed truck on it's    way to a salvage yard.  99% of the times these ELT's were harping for no    reason and the USAF wanted them turned off NOW, often at 2 or 3    am. 

    

   The fact of the matter is, IF you go down somewhere remote, the    only folks who will come looking for you is the CAP.  All volenteers,    some good and some not nearly good enough. The only thing paid for by the goverment is the gas and oil    during the mission.  They don't even pay for the training.     

    

   In every real mission I ever participate in the cadets were very    much a part of it.  If nothing more than checking local airports for the    missing plane.  But a lot of times the ELT was not and maybe    still isn't the best locating machine. They don't work under water (2    missions).  They don't work when directly impacted (2 mission)  They    don't work with dead batteries (1 mission).  They are almost impossible    to find with the antenna shoved into the ground in the wreckage or under high    tension lines (2 mission).  And sometimes they are purposely turned off    (1 mission that was a murder / suicide).

    

   The ELT?  Check and test it often.  Keep fresh    batteries in it.  And pray to God you have some bright, tenacious, pimple    face, 14 year old, hot on your trail when things go array.  You    ain't go'n to find no senator, congressmen, mayor, chief of police, cop, USAF,    Navy, or other bureaucracies looking for you.

    

   Jim "Pappy" Goolsby

    

    

    

    

    

   But the obvious    next question is why would you not have one. Even though the chances of the    school kids with revolving antennas finding me is remote it is better than    nothing.

    

   Gus

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 8:26 am Post subject: ELT

You can use GPS losat units which have tremendous range. They will give your exact Lat Longs to the SAR team. Problem is that you have to activate it directly. It weighs about as much as your ELT. It is portable, meaning you can throw it in your flight bag. It is registered to you and you have provided all your contact info that stays on file before hand. When it goes off, they will come looking for you good, bad, or indifferent.

 Doc

  

 



  

 [quote] ---

gus.fraser(at)gs.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 8:38 am Post subject: ELT

Doc,

 Do you have any info on  suppliers cost etc etc ?

  

 Gus



 [quote]         From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com    [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roger    Kemp

Sent: Monday, February 06, 2006 11:26 AM

To:    yak-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE:    ELT

   

      You can use GPS losat units which have    tremendous range. They will give your exact Lat Longs to the SAR team. Problem    is that you have to activate it directly. It weighs about as much as your ELT.    It is portable, meaning you can throw it in your flight bag. It is registered    to you and you have provided all your contact info that stays on    file before hand. When it goes off, they will come looking for you good,    bad, or indifferent.

   Doc

    

   



    

   [quote]     ---

jsfox(at)adelphia.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 8:50 am Post subject: ELT

ACR Terrafix available at REI for $699

http://www.rei.com/category/40002202.htm



Steve Fox



On Feb 6, 2006, at 11:37 AM, Fraser, Gus wrote:

[quote]  Doc,

 Do you have any info on suppliers cost etc etc ?

  

 Gus



 [quote]      From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com   [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Roger   Kemp

Sent: Monday, February 06, 2006 11:26 AM

To:   yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)

Subject: RE:   ELT

  

    You can use GPS losat units which have   tremendous range. They will give your exact Lat Longs to the SAR team. Problem   is that you have to activate it directly. It weighs about as much as your ELT.   It is portable, meaning you can throw it in your flight bag. It is registered   to you and you have provided all your contact info that stays on   file before hand. When it goes off, they will come looking for you good,   bad, or indifferent.

  Doc

   

  



   

  [quote]    ---

fish(at)aviation-tech.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 8:54 am Post subject: ELT

Bill, Dennis and Others,



We have been going around and around about this in the jet world. Yes they are

not required, but lots of times you can not get an airworthiness cert without

one. If it makes the FAA happy, and gets you your cert, then install one. It

is much cheaper then fighting with them.



Fly Safe

John Fischer

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Bill,

Not required per 91.207 (f) (.  DAR's or FAA Inspectors would not >issue

Airworthiness Certificates and OL's if they were a required piece >of equipment
	


and were not installed.

[quote]Dennis

---

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 9:21 am Post subject: ELT

Gus,

 Steve beat me to it. ACR is the unit I have. The price exactly that. The unit is registered with NOAA. It is a SARSAT beacon. It is alittle bulky but at the sametime, it is very portable. If you fly more than one A/C, it will easily go with you.

 When going XC over remote territory, I consider it a warm fuzzy. Then you are not worrying about the CAP with a locator DF searching for you. The big boys are coming with a choper for you or a ground SAR team is coming  directly to a tree next you in the deep woods if that is where you came to light. The down side is you have to be able to deploy the antenna and push one button.

 Doc

  

 



  

 [quote] ---

Mike Bell

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 51

Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 9:24 am Post subject: Re: ELT

Try www.avionicswest.com. Their website has some good info about ELTs and they sell the McMurdo FastFind for about $500. Best bet is a 406Mhz ELT in the plane and a little PLB like the Mc Murdo on your person. Especially if you wear a parachute you want a PLB. The newer 406 ELTs are located hours faster than a 121.5 model, and your position will be resolved down to a few meters rather than a few square miles.

_________________
Mike Bell
Elk Grove, CA
avbell2(at)comcastdotnet

gus.fraser(at)gs.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 9:53 am Post subject: ELT

Doc, Steve

  

 Thanks, what exactly is the difference between the two models ? Is  it that one has a GPS receiver built in and the other will accept GPS serial  data ? There is a $100 difference in cost any ideas ??

  

 Gus



 [quote]         From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com    [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roger    Kemp

Sent: Monday, February 06, 2006 12:21 PM

To:    yak-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re:    ELT

   

      Gus,

   Steve beat me to it. ACR is the unit I have. The price exactly that. The    unit is registered with NOAA. It is a SARSAT beacon. It is alittle bulky but    at the sametime, it is very portable. If you fly more than one A/C, it will    easily go with you.

   When going XC over remote territory, I consider it a warm fuzzy. Then you    are not worrying about the CAP with a locator DF searching for you. The big    boys are coming with a choper for you or a ground SAR team is coming     directly to a tree next you in the deep woods if that is where you came to    light. The down side is you have to be able to deploy the antenna and push one    button.

   Doc

    

   



    

   [quote]     ---

dsavarese(at)elmore.rr.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 9:56 am Post subject: ELT

Completely agree.

Dennis



---

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 10:40 am Post subject: ELT

Gus,

 the website for ACR is info(at)acrelectronics.com (info(at)acrelectronics.com). I am not the expert on these devices. Mine has an external antenna and internal (onboard) gps antenna that you can update the GPS fix with but in an emergency, deploying the beacon antenna will get help.

 Doc

  

 



  

 [quote] ---

BitterlichMG(at)cherrypoi
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 1:54 pm Post subject: ELT

I have  asked the FAA both locally and in 2 others areas, and all three have said that  ELT's are not a requirement in Experimental Exhibition Aircraft for any type of  flight.  

  

 Personally, I think it is entirely reasonable to fly without one, and I  take advantage of that rule every time I fly and that's because I have  little faith in ELT'S to begin with.  

  

 ON THE  OTHER HAND, I have a LOT of faith in a 406 Mhz PLB with built in GPS    AND   a 121.5 transmitter built in (about $660  or so, and you can carry it from plane to plane).  If you follow the FAA  regs about a ELT install, you have to have things like remote control, automatic  G force activation, etc., etc.  Many of these things have caused the Civil  Air Patrol large amounts of grief.  

  

 So ...  since I have the option.... and am very glad to have  it... I go with the  406 Mhz SARSAT approved, internal GPS carrying Personal Locator Beacon.   

  

 Regarding these conversations with the FAA,  I was very  interested in hearing their viewpoint concerning "carrying passengers in  Experimental Exhibition aircraft" was well.  For example, a lot of people  are getting aerobatic instruction in their YAK52's, or CJ's, etc. etc.   Speaking about opening a bag of worms!   

  

 My 2  cents only. 

  

 Mark  Bitterlich

  

  

  

  

  

 [quote]   --

Mike Bell

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 51

Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 5:42 pm Post subject: Re: ELT

For some reason my link to Avionics West is no good. Try http://www.avionicswest.com/Emergency/plb.htm#2005.

_________________
Mike Bell
Elk Grove, CA
avbell2(at)comcastdotnet

Valkyre1(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 7:00 am Post subject: ELT

Just a quick note of agreement. My son was a CAP  Cadet rotorhead and so was I. They are generally well trained, dedicated and  professional. God bless 'em all. - Val

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