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***SPAM*** Re: EFIS Comparisons

 
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jschroeder(at)perigee.net
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 5:56 pm    Post subject: ***SPAM*** Re: EFIS Comparisons Reply with quote

There has been a series of discussions of this on the BMA Discussion
Board. Check there. YOU have to have a certified CDI to display the
certified GPS information if you want to fly IFR enroute and IFR GPS
approaches. EAA also has a paper on the subject.
On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 17:18:50 -0600, Brinker <brinker(at)cox-internet.com>
wrote:

Quote:
Just curious, why a separate CDI for IFR approahes if the BMA
show's CDI on screen ?

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aadamson(at)highrf.com
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 8:27 pm    Post subject: ***SPAM*** Re: EFIS Comparisons Reply with quote

John, I might be wrong and just went to look on the BMA site. I didn't find
anything specifically, nor did I find it on or searching around the EAA
site.

Can you post a link? You sure you aren't confusing the issue of using the
BMA with a CNX-480 and the fact that you can't get all the nav signals that
are needed, some most are using an external head?

The link to specifics would help if you could please? I'm curious as well
as I'm going down the road to a chelton panel for a Legacy and want to make
sure I don't mess up. Guys at D2AV say I don't need and external CDI...

Alan

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flyboy.bob(at)gmail.com
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 9:20 pm    Post subject: ***SPAM*** Re: EFIS Comparisons Reply with quote

I'm pretty sure you can use a GNS430 without a CDI for GPS Enroute and
Approach? . . . It has a "CDI" of sorts built in. I plan to use the EHSI
function of the BMA Lite for ILS and or VOR CDI function and I believe that
is OK too? The GPS in the "Lite" should make a nice backup too.

Regards,
Bob
On 1/13/06, John Schroeder <jschroeder(at)perigee.net> wrote:
Quote:


jschroeder(at)perigee.net>

There has been a series of discussions of this on the BMA Discussion
Board. Check there. YOU have to have a certified CDI to display the
certified GPS information if you want to fly IFR enroute and IFR GPS
approaches. EAA also has a paper on the subject.
On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 17:18:50 -0600, Brinker <brinker(at)cox-internet.com>
wrote:

> Just curious, why a separate CDI for IFR approahes if the BMA
> show's CDI on screen ?

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BobsV35B(at)aol.com
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 5:12 am    Post subject: ***SPAM*** Re: EFIS Comparisons Reply with quote

Good Morning Bob,

Do you intend to use the 430 IFR or VFR?

Do you want to execute full ILS approaches?

For VFR, there is no question that a CDI is not needed.

For IFR, things get a bit stickier. Beyond that, it makes a difference if
the aircraft is experimental or normal category.

Do you intend to use an autopilot with the GPS?

There is no question in my mind as to whether or not the set can be used
successfully without a CDI for any and all GPS functions it is capable of
performing. Unfortunately, the FAA may not agree with that statement!

Let us know precisely how you want to use it and we may be able to offer
some help.

Happy Skies,

Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Air Park LL22
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8503


In a message dated 1/14/2006 2:49:44 A.M. Central Standard Time,
flyboy.bob(at)gmail.com writes:

I'm pretty sure you can use a GNS430 without a CDI for GPS Enroute and
Approach? . . . It has a "CDI" of sorts built in. I plan to use the EHSI
function of the BMA Lite for ILS and or VOR CDI function and I believe that
is OK too? The GPS in the "Lite" should make a nice backup too.

Regards,
Bob


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flyboy.bob(at)gmail.com
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 6:22 am    Post subject: ***SPAM*** Re: EFIS Comparisons Reply with quote

Hi Bob,

It is a RV8 and I plan to fly some "light" IFR . . . I don't know what you
mean by "full ILS approaches" but my intent is to fly GPS/VOR enroute
and GPS, VOR and ILS approaches with a GNS430 . . . the only "non TSO'd"
piece of the puzzle is the BMA/Lite(G3). I also have a DigiTrak auto
pilot.

Anything I've read to date leads me to feel this meets the language and
intent of the FARs, etc.?

Thanks,
Bob
On 1/14/06, BobsV35B(at)aol.com <BobsV35B(at)aol.com> wrote:
Quote:



Good Morning Bob,

Do you intend to use the 430 IFR or VFR?

Do you want to execute full ILS approaches?

For VFR, there is no question that a CDI is not needed.

For IFR, things get a bit stickier. Beyond that, it makes a difference
if
the aircraft is experimental or normal category.

Do you intend to use an autopilot with the GPS?

There is no question in my mind as to whether or not the set can be used
successfully without a CDI for any and all GPS functions it is capable of
performing. Unfortunately, the FAA may not agree with that statement!

Let us know precisely how you want to use it and we may be able to offer
some help.

Happy Skies,

Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Air Park LL22
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8503
In a message dated 1/14/2006 2:49:44 A.M. Central Standard Time,
flyboy.bob(at)gmail.com writes:

I'm pretty sure you can use a GNS430 without a CDI for GPS Enroute and
Approach? . . . It has a "CDI" of sorts built in. I plan to use the
EHSI
function of the BMA Lite for ILS and or VOR CDI function and I believe
that
is OK too? The GPS in the "Lite" should make a nice backup too.

Regards,
Bob


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Dan.Beadle(at)hq.inclines
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 7:02 am    Post subject: ***SPAM*** Re: EFIS Comparisons Reply with quote

The 430 does not have glide slope indicator. Therefore the on-board CDI
is not enough to fly the ILS, jus the localizer.

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BobsV35B(at)aol.com
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 7:45 am    Post subject: ***SPAM*** Re: EFIS Comparisons Reply with quote

Good Morning Bob,

The reference to "full" ILS was meant to include a glide slope. There is no
way that I am aware of to see the glide slope on the 430 control unit face.
Consequently a CDI is needed. While I am not very familiar with how the 430
works, I also believe you will need a resolver to input VOR radials for the
VHF navigation portion of the 430.

Since you do want to fly IFR, I think you will need an approved resolver
input device.
Is there a resolver function available in the BMA/Lite(G3)? Can it present
the glide path indication?


Provided the BMA/Lite(G3) provides those capabilities, I think it could work!


If all you want from the 430 is IFR GPS functions, a good case can be made
for doing it all with the 430 control unit. Since you are the person that has
to approve the installation and explain your reasoning at a hearing, it wou
ld seem to me that you could support the GPS functions as being in substantial
compliance with the applicable GPS TSO even without a separate CDI and
resolver.

Happy Skies,

Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Air Park LL22
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8503


In a message dated 1/14/2006 8:24:39 A.M. Central Standard Time,
flyboy.bob(at)gmail.com writes:

Hi Bob,

It is a RV8 and I plan to fly some "light" IFR . . . I don't know what you
mean by "full ILS approaches" but my intent is to fly GPS/VOR enroute
and GPS, VOR and ILS approaches with a GNS430 . . . the only "non TSO'd"
piece of the puzzle is the BMA/Lite(G3). I also have a DigiTrak auto
pilot.

Anything I've read to date leads me to feel this meets the language and
intent of the FARs, etc.?

Thanks,
Bob


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flyboy.bob(at)gmail.com
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 8:20 am    Post subject: ***SPAM*** Re: EFIS Comparisons Reply with quote

I understand that . . . the 430 will feed the BMA/Lite for that purpose.

Thanks,
Bob
On 1/14/06, Dan Beadle <Dan.Beadle(at)hq.inclinesoftworks.com> wrote:
[quote]

Dan.Beadle(at)hq.InclineSoftworks.com>

The 430 does not have glide slope indicator. Therefore the on-board CDI
is not enough to fly the ILS, jus the localizer.

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flyboy.bob(at)gmail.com
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 8:32 am    Post subject: ***SPAM*** Re: EFIS Comparisons Reply with quote

Bob,

Yes the BMA/Lite "has" the resolver capability and does display the ILS
"needles" in both the HSI and ADI mode . . . for VOR you would have to be in
HSI mode. I'm not flying yet but it is an analog interface with the
BMA/Lite sending OBS information back to the 430 . . . I assume the
resolving function is done in the 430? and the BMA/Lite displays the to/from
and CDI indication.

I have an AH, TSO'd Altimeter, and AS and VSI for "back-up"

I'm not sure this is all ready for prime time but by the time I'm flying and
have my 40 hours flown off I plan to prove the functionality and reliability
of what I just said!

Thanks for your input!
Bob
On 1/14/06, BobsV35B(at)aol.com <BobsV35B(at)aol.com> wrote:
Quote:



Good Morning Bob,

The reference to "full" ILS was meant to include a glide slope. There is
no
way that I am aware of to see the glide slope on the 430 control
unit face.
Consequently a CDI is needed. While I am not very familiar with how the
430
works, I also believe you will need a resolver to input VOR radials
for the
VHF navigation portion of the 430.

Since you do want to fly IFR, I think you will need an approved resolver
input device.
Is there a resolver function available in the BMA/Lite(G3)? Can it present
the glide path indication?
Provided the BMA/Lite(G3) provides those capabilities, I think it could
work!
If all you want from the 430 is IFR GPS functions, a good case can be made
for doing it all with the 430 control unit. Since you are the person
that has
to approve the installation and explain your reasoning at a hearing,
it wou
ld seem to me that you could support the GPS functions as being
in substantial
compliance with the applicable GPS TSO even without a separate CDI and
resolver.

Happy Skies,

Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Air Park LL22
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8503
In a message dated 1/14/2006 8:24:39 A.M. Central Standard Time,
flyboy.bob(at)gmail.com writes:

Hi Bob,

It is a RV8 and I plan to fly some "light" IFR . . . I don't know what
you
mean by "full ILS approaches" but my intent is to fly GPS/VOR enroute
and GPS, VOR and ILS approaches with a GNS430 . . . the only "non TSO'd"
piece of the puzzle is the BMA/Lite(G3). I also have a DigiTrak auto
pilot.

Anything I've read to date leads me to feel this meets the language and
intent of the FARs, etc.?

Thanks,
Bob


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BobsV35B(at)aol.com
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 8:44 am    Post subject: ***SPAM*** Re: EFIS Comparisons Reply with quote

Good Morning Bob,

Sounds good to me except I would strongly suggest the installation of a
classic Turn and Bank Needle. There is no instrument that is more reliable and
it weighs very little. When all else fails, the T&B can easily get you safely
to Mother Earth. Not only that but it is completely non tumbling and can be
used as guidance to recover from a spin.

I am all for using modern solid state equipment. But nothing beats the T&B
for a back-up!

Happy Skies,

Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Air Park LL22
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8503


In a message dated 1/14/2006 10:34:25 A.M. Central Standard Time,
flyboy.bob(at)gmail.com writes:

Bob,

Yes the BMA/Lite "has" the resolver capability and does display the ILS
"needles" in both the HSI and ADI mode . . . for VOR you would have to be in
HSI mode. I'm not flying yet but it is an analog interface with the
BMA/Lite sending OBS information back to the 430 . . . I assume the
resolving function is done in the 430? and the BMA/Lite displays the to/from
and CDI indication.

I have an AH, TSO'd Altimeter, and AS and VSI for "back-up"

I'm not sure this is all ready for prime time but by the time I'm flying and
have my 40 hours flown off I plan to prove the functionality and reliability
of what I just said!


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sportav8r(at)aol.com
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 8:55 am    Post subject: ***SPAM*** Re: EFIS Comparisons Reply with quote

Exactly what I like about the Trio EZ-Pilot: built-in turn needle and mechanical inclinometer ball, plus it could fly the plane better than I could if I got a kidney stone or a case of the greens. It suffers no more from electrical system dependency than the ol' Turn and Bank does, so I'm happy with the substitution.

-Bill

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BobsV35B(at)aol.com
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 12:45 pm    Post subject: ***SPAM*** Re: EFIS Comparisons Reply with quote

Good Afternoon Bill.

I hope you are correct, but I have heard rumors that the current crop of
solid state accelerometer based rate sensors do not do well during violent
maneuvering. Supposedly, that is one of the reasons there have been so few
approved for certified use. It is my feeling that I would sooner have a tried and
true instrument like the T&B for my last ditch backup.

I would hope that some day I will have the confidence to use newer designs,
but meanwhile, I will keep my gyroscopic turn needle. In my current spam
can, I have one electric T&B and one vacuum powered T&B.

However, I guess that is why we call the OBAM aircraft experimental. We are
all free to experiment as we see fit!

Happy Skies,

Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Air Park LL22
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8503


In a message dated 1/14/2006 10:57:18 A.M. Central Standard Time,
sportav8r(at)aol.com writes:

Exactly what I like about the Trio EZ-Pilot: built-in turn needle and
mechanical inclinometer ball, plus it could fly the plane better than I could if I
got a kidney stone or a case of the greens. It suffers no more from
electrical system dependency than the ol' Turn and Bank does, so I'm happy with the
substitution.

-Bill


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brian



Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 643
Location: Sacramento, California, USA

PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 9:39 pm    Post subject: ***SPAM*** Re: EFIS Comparisons Reply with quote

BobsV35B(at)aol.com wrote:

Quote:
I hope you are correct, but I have heard rumors that the current crop of
solid state accelerometer based rate sensors do not do well during violent
maneuvering. Supposedly, that is one of the reasons there have been so few
approved for certified use. It is my feeling that I would sooner have a tried and
true instrument like the T&B for my last ditch backup.

All of the solid state rate gyros and accelerometers have maximum rates.
For the rate gyros they are in degrees per second and for the
accelerometers they are in Gs. If the AHRS has 160 degree/sec rate gyros
then it is going to lose track if you roll the airplane too fast. (It
won't really tumble but it won't indicate a roll as fast as you are
actually achieving.) You can get devices that support higher rates at
the expense of lower resolution and accuracy.

Most aircraft do not have pitch, yaw, or roll rates great enough to
reach the limits. OTOH, some OBAM aircraft do and that should be a
consideration when selecting a PFD/AHRS.

--
Brian Lloyd 2243 Cattle Dr.
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)

I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery


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