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Experimental IFR w/o a certified GPS or looking for a copy o

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etekberg(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 4:52 am Post subject: Experimental IFR w/o a certified GPS or looking for a copy o

I work on WAAS for the FAA and have the MOPS (229c) on pdf.  There is lots of good information in the document useful for building a WAAS receiver, but I don't think you'll find what you are looking for there.  The word experimental occurs only 1 time and in the context of "findings based on experimental data". 

  

 Eric

 RV-10 #583 - empennage

 



 

 On 6/11/06, Deems Davis <deemsdavis(at)cox.net (deemsdavis(at)cox.net)> wrote:   	  Quote: 	
		  --> RV10-List message posted by: Deems Davis <deemsdavis(at)cox.net  (deemsdavis(at)cox.net)>



I recently read an article posted on Direct2. website

http://www.direct2avionics.com/pdfs/Using_GPS_for_IFR_flight.pd  by a

 Phd CFII that concludes that for EXPERIMENTAL aircraft, it was not

necessary for the aircraft to be equipped with a CERTIFIED GPS receiver

to legally file and fly IFR, PROVIDED that you, the pilot/mfg can

evaluate the GPS functionality, and find it provides all of the 

necessary pilot input (as defined in the TSO) for IFR flight.



This sounded like it was worth looking into. I verified this opinion

with a competitor of Direct2. So off I go to study TSO-C146 the Standard

 document for WAAS GPS, unfortunately there is nothing in the document

regarding functional requirements other than a reference to:

RTCA/DO-229B (which I learned has since been superceeded w/

RTCA/DO-229C). Another Google search reveals that this document is 

available but with a cost which ranged from $108-370 per copy.

Does anyone know of a 'library' where this document could be 'rented' or

checked-out. a couple hundred bucks is a steep price for someone just

investigating an idea/thought. 



Deems Davis # 406

Fuse

http://deemsrv10.com/

- The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

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Tdawson(at)avidyne.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 5:07 am Post subject: Experimental IFR w/o a certified GPS or looking for a copy o

Yeah, in general, TSOs are really equipment specs, not operational specs, and TSO’ed equipment just helps with the certification of an aircraft installation by STC or TC. (in fact, certified aircraft can even get away with non-TSO equipment, if they can convince the FAA to allow it under their TC.)  

   

For experimental aircraft, in general, TSOs are not really necessary, since there is no STC or TC.  (just look at all of us using GRT or other “non-TSO’ed” equipment for engine instruments, and the FAA doesn’t ask us to prove they meet some spec.)  

   

However, the FAA may have blurred lines by issuing ACs that blend operational and equipment requirements. (specific to IFR GPS ops, etc.)  

   

Isn’t FAA certification a wonderfully transparent and easy process?  

   

TDT  

         

  

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Eric Ekberg

 Sent: Monday, June 12, 2006 8:50 AM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: RV10-List: Experimental IFR w/o a certified GPS or looking for a copy of RTCA/DO-229C  

  

     

I work on WAAS for the FAA and have the MOPS (229c) on pdf.  There is lots of good information in the document useful for building a WAAS receiver, but I don't think you'll find what you are looking for there.  The word experimental occurs only 1 time and in the context of "findings based on experimental data".   

    

   

    

Eric  

    

RV-10 #583 - empennage  

    



 

    

    

On 6/11/06, Deems Davis <deemsdavis(at)cox.net (deemsdavis(at)cox.net)> wrote:   

--> RV10-List message posted by: Deems Davis <deemsdavis(at)cox.net  (deemsdavis(at)cox.net)>

 

 I recently read an article posted on Direct2. website

 http://www.direct2avionics.com/pdfs/Using_GPS_for_IFR_flight.pd  by a

 Phd CFII that concludes that for EXPERIMENTAL aircraft, it was not

 necessary for the aircraft to be equipped with a CERTIFIED GPS receiver

 to legally file and fly IFR, PROVIDED that you, the pilot/mfg can

 evaluate the GPS functionality, and find it provides all of the 

 necessary pilot input (as defined in the TSO) for IFR flight.

 

 This sounded like it was worth looking into. I verified this opinion

 with a competitor of Direct2. So off I go to study TSO-C146 the Standard

 document for WAAS GPS, unfortunately there is nothing in the document

 regarding functional requirements other than a reference to:

 RTCA/DO-229B (which I learned has since been superceeded w/

 RTCA/DO-229C). Another Google search reveals that this document is 

 available but with a cost which ranged from $108-370 per copy.

 Does anyone know of a 'library' where this document could be 'rented' or

 checked-out. a couple hundred bucks is a steep price for someone just

 investigating an idea/thought. 

 

 Deems Davis # 406

 Fuse

 http://deemsrv10.com/

- The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

billderou(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 8:51 am Post subject: Experimental IFR w/o a certified GPS or looking for a copy o

I have two questions regarding blending experimental equipment with certified equipment. 

   

  In July 2003 I ordered an RV-10 kit and began designing out all vacuum-based components ending up with a complete IFR glass panel. The PFD/EFIS was implemented from scratch. 

   

  The panel is highly integrated and the main pieces are:

  1) Garmin 430 and 330.

  2) Own display computer driving a 10.4" sunlight rated industrial LCD.

  3) Own calibrated air data computer with high sensitivity.

  4) Commercial 360 degree, accurate solid state gyro pack.

  5) Own black box to convert all the discretes and analog outputs from the Garmin 430 to packets.

  6) Good IFR Tru-Trak 2-axis autopilot.

   

  All the above has been tested, prototyped and installed in our RV-10. First flight will occur in July.

    

  My two questions are:

     Since I have pulled the Garmin Glideslope/Localizer CDI and annunicators into my   

     experimental display does this negate my legal ability to fly IFR?

   

     Since my experimental air data computer is supplying pressure altitude to the 

     Garmin 330 transponder does this satisfy all VFR & IFR requirements? I will

     have a licensed avionics shop perform a standard pitot/static & transponder 

     certification.

   

  Bill DeRouchey

  N939SB, RV-10 kit #40029

  billderou(at)yahoo.com (billderou(at)yahoo.com)

   

     

   

  the requiRe: the blending operational and equipment requirements as mentioned by Tim Dawson-Townsend



Tim  Dawson-Townsend <Tdawson(at)avidyne.com> wrote:

   	  Quote: 	
		        v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}  o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}  w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}  .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}    <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />     st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) }                Yeah, in general, TSOs are really equipment specs, not operational specs, and TSO’ed equipment just helps with the certification of an aircraft  installation by STC or TC. (in fact, certified aircraft can even get away with non-TSO equipment, if they can convince the FAA to allow it under their TC.)

   

  For experimental aircraft, in general, TSOs are not really necessary, since there is no STC or TC.  (just look at all of us using GRT or other “non-TSO’ed” equipment for engine instruments, and the FAA doesn’t ask us to prove they meet some spec.)

   

  However, the FAA may have blurred lines by issuing ACs that blend operational and equipment requirements. (specific to IFR GPS ops, etc.)

   

  Isn’t FAA certification a wonderfully transparent and easy process?

   

  TDT

   

        

  From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Eric Ekberg

Sent: Monday, June 12, 2006 8:50 AM

To: <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" />rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Experimental IFR w/o a certified GPS or looking for a copy of RTCA/DO-229C



   

    I work on WAAS for the FAA and have the MOPS (229c) on pdf.  There is lots of good information in the document useful for building a WAAS receiver, but I don't think you'll find what you are looking for there.  The word experimental occurs only 1 time and in the context of "findings based on experimental data". 



     



    Eric



    RV-10 #583 - empennage



    



 



    On 6/11/06, Deems Davis <deemsdavis(at)cox.net (deemsdavis(at)cox.net)> wrote: 

  --> RV10-List message posted by: Deems Davis <deemsdavis(at)cox.net  (deemsdavis(at)cox.net)>



I recently read an article posted on Direct2. website

http://www.direct2avionics.com/pdfs/Using_GPS_for_IFR_flight.pd  by a

Phd CFII that concludes that for EXPERIMENTAL aircraft, it was not

necessary for the aircraft to be equipped with a CERTIFIED GPS receiver

to legally file and fly IFR, PROVIDED that you, the pilot/mfg can

evaluate the GPS functionality, and find it provides all of the 

necessary pilot input (as defined in the TSO) for IFR flight.



This sounded like it was worth looking into. I verified this opinion

with a competitor of Direct2. So off I go to study TSO-C146 the Standard

document for WAAS GPS, unfortunately there is nothing in the document

regarding functional requirements other than a reference to:

RTCA/DO-229B (which I learned has since been superceeded w/

RTCA/DO-229C). Another Google search reveals that this document is 

available but with a cost which ranged from $108-370 per  copy.

Does anyone know of a 'library' where this document could be 'rented' or

checked-out. a couple hundred bucks is a steep price for someone just

investigating an idea/thought. 



Deems Davis # 406

Fuse

http://deemsrv10.com/

- The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

Tdawson(at)avidyne.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 9:59 am Post subject: Experimental IFR w/o a certified GPS or looking for a copy o

Sounds like you’re good to go to me.  It’s not TSO’ed equipment, but it does the necessary functions.  To impress the inspector, you could even borrow a Nav radio test set and drive the Garmin with some simulated VOR/LOC and GS signals to verify your deviation indicator.  

   

TDT

 

   

         

  

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill DeRouchey

 Sent: Monday, June 12, 2006 12:50 PM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: RV10-List: Experimental IFR w/o a certified GPS or looking for a copy of RTCA/DO-229C  

  

     

I have two questions regarding blending experimental equipment with certified equipment.   

    

   

    

In July 2003 I ordered an RV-10 kit and began designing out all vacuum-based components ending up with a complete IFR glass panel. The PFD/EFIS was implemented from scratch.   

    

   

    

The panel is highly integrated and the main pieces are:  

    

1) Garmin 430 and 330.  

    

2) Own display computer driving a 10.4" sunlight rated industrial LCD.  

    

3) Own calibrated air data computer with high sensitivity.  

    

4) Commercial 360 degree, accurate solid state gyro pack.  

    

5) Own black box to convert all the discretes and analog outputs from the Garmin 430 to packets.  

    

6) Good IFR Tru-Trak 2-axis autopilot.  

    

   

    

All the above has been tested, prototyped and installed in our RV-10. First flight will occur in July.  

    

   

    

My two questions are:  

    

   Since I have pulled the Garmin Glideslope/Localizer CDI and annunicators into my     

    

   experimental display does this negate my legal ability to fly IFR?  

    

   

    

   Since my experimental air data computer is supplying pressure altitude to the   

    

   Garmin 330 transponder does this satisfy all VFR & IFR requirements? I will  

    

   have a licensed avionics shop perform a standard pitot/static & transponder   

    

   certification.  

    

   

    

Bill DeRouchey  

    

N939SB, RV-10 kit #40029  

    

billderou(at)yahoo.com (billderou(at)yahoo.com)  

    

   

    

     

    

   

    

the requiRe: the blending operational and equipment requirements as mentioned by Tim Dawson-Townsend

 

 Tim  Dawson-Townsend <Tdawson(at)avidyne.com> wrote:  

   	  Quote: 	
		      

Yeah, in general, TSOs are really equipment specs, not operational specs, and TSO’ed equipment just helps with the certification of an aircraft installation by STC or TC. (in fact, certified aircraft can even get away with non-TSO equipment, if they can convince the FAA to allow it under their TC.)  

    

   

    

For experimental aircraft, in general, TSOs are not really necessary, since there is no STC or TC.  (just look at all of us using GRT or other “non-TSO’ed” equipment for engine instruments, and the FAA doesn’t ask us to prove they meet some spec.)  

    

   

    

However, the FAA may have blurred lines by issuing ACs that blend operational and equipment requirements. (specific to IFR GPS ops, etc.)  

    

   

    

Isn’t FAA certification a wonderfully transparent and easy process?  

    

   

    

TDT  

    

   

        

    

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Eric Ekberg

 Sent: Monday, June 12, 2006 8:50 AM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: RV10-List: Experimental IFR w/o a certified GPS or looking for a copy of RTCA/DO-229C  

  

    

   

      

I work on WAAS for the FAA and have the MOPS (229c) on pdf.  There is lots of good information in the document useful for building a WAAS receiver, but I don't think you'll find what you are looking for there.  The word experimental occurs only 1 time and in the context of "findings based on experimental data".   

  

      

   

  

      

Eric  

  

      

RV-10 #583 - empennage  

  

      



 

    

  

      

On 6/11/06, Deems Davis <deemsdavis(at)cox.net (deemsdavis(at)cox.net)> wrote:   

    

--> RV10-List message posted by: Deems Davis <deemsdavis(at)cox.net  (deemsdavis(at)cox.net)>

 

 I recently read an article posted on Direct2. website

 http://www.direct2avionics.com/pdfs/Using_GPS_for_IFR_flight.pd  by a

 Phd CFII that concludes that for EXPERIMENTAL aircraft, it was not

 necessary for the aircraft to be equipped with a CERTIFIED GPS receiver

 to legally file and fly IFR, PROVIDED that you, the pilot/mfg can

 evaluate the GPS functionality, and find it provides all of the 

 necessary pilot input (as defined in the TSO) for IFR flight.

 

 This sounded like it was worth looking into. I verified this opinion

 with a competitor of Direct2. So off I go to study TSO-C146 the Standard

 document for WAAS GPS, unfortunately there is nothing in the document

 regarding functional requirements other than a reference to:

 RTCA/DO-229B (which I learned has since been superceeded w/

 RTCA/DO-229C). Another Google search reveals that this document is 

 available but with a cost which ranged from $108-370 per copy.

 Does anyone know of a 'library' where this document could be 'rented' or

 checked-out. a couple hundred bucks is a steep price for someone just

 investigating an idea/thought. 

 

 Deems Davis # 406

 Fuse

 http://deemsrv10.com/

- The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

dlm46007(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 12:36 pm Post subject: Experimental IFR w/o a certified GPS or looking for a copy o

Perhaps I don't understand but has anybody been  questioned by the FAA or ATC about whether they have TSOed Class A1 equipment on  board and operational?

 [quote]   ---

- The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

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