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BlueSkyFlier

Joined: 27 Jan 2011
Posts: 74
Location: UK

Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 3:20 pm Post subject: TR-1 Spar Repair Choice

As most of you know, my plane was damaged in a accident when taxiing in February. Having dropped the wing, we found the rear left spar/support strut broken on the wing side of the juction with the fuselage.  Enough space there to implement a good and proper fix with alu sideplates added into the (on both sides of the plane) so no problem.



The bigger issue is that the main spar has a compression fracture at top aft corner of the spar beam where it exits from the spar box on the left side. A photos of this is attached (with vernier calipers set to about one inch). Luckily it is on the top side.



Question for Rich (or anyone else who has the knowledge) â€“ Do you perhaps have access to a drawing of spar construction or could you describe it in brief?



Today I visited two composite material workshops which specialize in sailplane spar and wing construction and repair and have extended this knowhow to other composite aircraft as well. The owner of one of these enterprises has been building and repairing wings and spars since the seventies and it is evident that the repair my wing spar is a nothing out of the ordinary for them. In all those years they have never had a failure in a repaired spar and hey have the knowhow, methods and tools required for the job down pat.  He was kind enough to 'walk' me through the process and equipment they would use. Pricey it is, yeah â€“ in the high four figures sterling.



So now I have a dilemma. I can walk away and buy another plane for (say) 25 grand. Then I have a 2nd hand plane that I need to sort out from scratch.  On the other hand I could apply that same 25 grand to completely repair and refurbish the current plane including zero-timed (SMOH) engine, new paint job and fixing all the niggles that I want sorted out (like rudder pedals, stress on rudder horn, location of main gear, electric flaps, etc.) Then I have an aircraft which is effectively refurbished to my standards and which I also know inside-out by the time the job is done. [Note: I have already decided that the time required to get the job done is not a factor in my equation.]



So what you do in my shoes? (assuming that I buy back the salvage for a nominal sum, having already confirmed that competitive interest is effectively non-existent).  I shall make up my own mind, donâ€™t worry â€“ just need different perspectives if you care to share.



Regards,

             Alfred

TR-1 Spar Damage.jpg

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_________________
_________________________________________

gbrighton(at)skymesh.com.
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 4:49 pm Post subject: TR-1 Spar Repair Choice

G'Day Again Alfred ...

                                     Here is my 2bobs worth ..

A repaired Main spar aircraft will suffer a substantial asset value drop 

.probably around the actual repair amount at least. So now there is two 

costs ..the repair cost and the asset depreciation cost .... So i wouldn't 

go the repair route ..



However ...if u could find a TR1 kit or  unfinished project  ... well that 

would be whole different story .. Completion failures of Kit projects is 

said to but way high ...so a suitable wing, wink/kit is almost certainly out 

there ... probably be a world wide search ..



If a spare parts search came up with nothing .. i would put the insurance 

payout in the pocket and walk away .. !!



Luv to hear from Rick about any wing kit availability ...!!??



Graham

TR1 #80

Flyinisfun(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 7:24 pm Post subject: TR-1 Spar Repair Choice

This is Jesse Wright

  

 I will also give my 2 cents worth concerning how I would feel about fixing  a fractured spar.  Thinking about what Rich has cautioned us about over and  over is, "Do not drill the carbon fiber in the spar or rail pieces.  This  is also concerning even drilling the tips, outboard wing spar.  This is  because the carbon fiber runs as complete fiber from one end to the other.   Any cutting of this fiber will let the fiber slip through and let a bending  moment occur along the fiber.  It seems to me a bruise toward the center  would be much worse than at the wing tips.  Remember, "Don't drill this  fiber, even on the wing tip for tie downs eyes.  

  

 I have hit turbulence that I have hit my head on the roof before I could  get it slowed down.  It was so severe that it stung my neck.  I would  live in freight to think what this might bring, I could never put all my weight  down.   Ha.  

  

 If Rich might have a spar laying around, left over from his kits, you might  think about ripping of the skins and replacing the spar.  This would  depend on how well you sanded and bonded the skins on.  Maybe he might  know where skins and spars might be.  

  

 I'm sorry for your loss but I hope never to hear of a greater  loss.

  [quote][b]

sstearns2(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 11:39 pm Post subject: TR-1 Spar Repair Choice

The repair looks pretty minor to me.  I'd like to see more pictures before I completely commit to an opinion but...  

  

 One side of the vertical part of the spar is molded with the spar caps into a C section.  The damaged portion is on the opposite side and is a piece of sandwich panel bonded in by the builder.  

  

 http://www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com/KIS-TR1-Web/BuildersManual/TR1_08_wings.pdf

  

 I would grind out the damaged areas enough to inspect the inside plies of the sandwich panel.  If they are okay then it's not that big of a job to recreate the sandwich panel with foam/micro and glass over it with 3 or 4 plies.  It should be about a 1 hour job for someone comfortable with fiberglass work on airplanes from the looks of it.  The european sailplane composite guys are probably very good.  

  

 If the inner plies of the sandwich panel are damaged then pull out the whole sandwich panel and bond in a new one.  That would be a good as new repair as long as the rest of the spar is undamaged. 

  

 If the carbon (black) spar caps are damaged at all then the spar is junk.  Inspect the area where the crack ends into the black carbon spar cap very carefully.  The shear web is pretty lightly loaded, but the carbon spar caps are about the only "if it fails you die" structure in the airplane.  They are critical and highly loaded.  

  

 Where is the crack relative to the bushing the wing bolts go through?  

  

 My impression is that there were more fuselage kits than wing kits produced.  My wing was the last one produced (11 years ago) and some of the tooling was in pretty rough shape back then.  I'm sure the tooling is gone by now.  

  

 Scott

--- On Tue, 4/12/11, BlueSkyFlier <bleuskyfly(at)teledynamix.com> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  

From: BlueSkyFlier <bleuskyfly(at)teledynamix.com>

Subject: TR-1 Spar Repair Choice

To: kis-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Tuesday, April 12, 2011, 4:20 PM



 --> KIS-List message posted by: "BlueSkyFlier" <bleuskyfly(at)teledynamix.com (bleuskyfly(at)teledynamix.com)>



As most of you know, my plane was damaged in a accident when taxiing in February. Having dropped the wing, we found the rear left spar/support strut broken on the wing side of the juction with the fuselage.  Enough space there to implement a good and proper fix with alu sideplates added into the (on both sides of the plane) so no problem.



The bigger issue is that the main spar has a compression fracture at top aft corner of the spar beam where it exits from the spar box on the left side. A photos of this is attached (with vernier calipers set to about one inch). Luckily it is on the top side.



Question for Rich (or anyone else who has the knowledge) Ã¢â‚¬â€œ Do you perhaps have access to a drawing  of spar construction or could you describe it in brief?



Today I visited two composite material workshops which specialize in sailplane spar and wing construction and repair and have extended this knowhow to other composite aircraft as well. The owner of one of these enterprises has been building and repairing wings and spars since the seventies and it is evident that the repair my wing spar is a nothing out of the ordinary for them. In all those years they have never had a failure in a repaired spar and hey have the knowhow, methods and tools required for the job down pat.  He was kind enough to 'walk' me through the process and equipment they would use. Pricey it is, yeah Ã¢â‚¬â€œ in the high four figures sterling.



So now I have a dilemma. I can walk away and buy another plane for (say) 25 grand. Then I have a 2nd hand plane that I need to sort out from scratch.  On the other hand I could apply that same 25 grand to completely  repair and refurbish the current plane including zero-timed (SMOH) engine, new paint job and fixing all the niggles that I want sorted out (like rudder pedals, stress on rudder horn, location of main gear, electric flaps, etc.) Then I have an aircraft which is effectively refurbished to my standards and which I also know inside-out by the time the job is done. [Note: I have already decided that the time required to get the job done is not a factor in my equation.]



So what you do in my shoes? (assuming that I buy back the salvage for a nominal sum, having already confirmed that competitive interest is effectively non-existent).  I shall make up my own mind, donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t worry Ã¢â‚¬â€œ just need different perspectives if you care to share.



Regards,

             Alfred



--------

_________________________________________





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=336753#336753





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 [quote][b]

sstearns2(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 11:52 pm Post subject: TR-1 Spar Repair Choice

The sandwich panel also has solid fiberglass or phenolic 'plates' where the bushings for the spar bolts are.  If you have to pull out the sandwich panel, then it should be pretty clear to  a composite repair person to see how to recreate it.

  

 Scott



--- On Wed, 4/13/11, Scott Stearns <sstearns2(at)yahoo.com> wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		  

From: Scott Stearns <sstearns2(at)yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: TR-1 Spar Repair Choice

To: kis-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Wednesday, April 13, 2011, 12:33 AM



      The repair looks pretty minor to me.  I'd like to see more pictures before I completely commit to an opinion but...  

  

 One side of the vertical part of the spar is molded with the spar caps into a C section.  The damaged portion is on the opposite side and is a piece of sandwich panel bonded in by the builder.  

  

 http://www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com/KIS-TR1-Web/BuildersManual/TR1_08_wings.pdf

  

 I would grind out the damaged areas enough to inspect the inside plies of the sandwich panel.  If they are okay then it's not that big of a job to recreate the sandwich panel with foam/micro and glass over it with 3 or 4 plies.  It should be about a 1 hour job for someone comfortable with fiberglass work on airplanes from the looks of it.  The european sailplane composite guys are probably very good.  

  

 If the inner plies of the sandwich panel are damaged then pull out the whole sandwich panel and bond in a new one.  That would be a good as new repair as long as the rest of the spar is undamaged. 

  

 If the carbon (black) spar caps are damaged at all then the spar is junk.  Inspect the area where the crack ends into the black carbon spar cap very carefully.  The shear web is pretty lightly loaded, but the carbon spar caps are about the only "if it fails you die" structure in the airplane.  They are critical and highly loaded.  

  

 Where is the crack relative to the bushing the wing bolts go through?  

  

 My impression is that there were more fuselage kits than wing kits produced.  My wing was the last one produced (11 years ago) and some of the tooling was in pretty rough shape back then.  I'm sure the tooling is gone by now.  

  

 Scott

--- On Tue, 4/12/11, BlueSkyFlier <bleuskyfly(at)teledynamix.com> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  

From: BlueSkyFlier <bleuskyfly(at)teledynamix.com>

Subject: TR-1 Spar Repair Choice

To: kis-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Tuesday, April 12, 2011, 4:20 PM



 --> KIS-List message posted by: "BlueSkyFlier" <bleuskyfly(at)teledynamix.com>



As most of you know, my plane was damaged in a accident when taxiing in February. Having dropped the wing, we found the rear left spar/support strut broken on the wing side of the juction with the fuselage.  Enough space there to implement a good and proper fix with alu sideplates added into the (on both sides of the plane) so no problem.



The bigger issue is that the main spar has a compression fracture at top aft corner of the spar beam where it exits from the spar box on the left side. A photos of this is attached (with vernier calipers set to about one inch). Luckily it is on the top side.



Question for Rich (or anyone else who has the knowledge) Ã¢â‚¬â€œ Do you perhaps have access to a drawing of  spar construction or could you describe it in brief?



Today I visited two composite material workshops which specialize in sailplane spar and wing construction and repair and have extended this knowhow to other composite aircraft as well. The owner of one of these enterprises has been building and repairing wings and spars since the seventies and it is evident that the repair my wing spar is a nothing out of the ordinary for them. In all those years they have never had a failure in a repaired spar and hey have the knowhow, methods and tools required for the job down pat.  He was kind enough to 'walk' me through the process and equipment they would use. Pricey it is, yeah Ã¢â‚¬â€œ in the high four figures sterling.



So now I have a dilemma. I can walk away and buy another plane for (say) 25 grand. Then I have a 2nd hand plane that I need to sort out from scratch.  On the other hand I could apply that same 25 grand to completely  repair and refurbish the current plane including zero-timed (SMOH) engine, new paint job and fixing all the niggles that I want sorted out (like rudder pedals, stress on rudder horn, location of main gear, electric flaps, etc.) Then I have an aircraft which is effectively refurbished to my standards and which I also know inside-out by the time the job is done. [Note: I have already decided that the time required to get the job done is not a factor in my equation.]



So what you do in my shoes? (assuming that I buy back the salvage for a nominal sum, having already confirmed that competitive interest is effectively non-existent).  I shall make up my own mind, donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t worry Ã¢â‚¬â€œ just need different perspectives if you care to share.



Regards,

             Alfred



--------

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http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=336753#336753





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 [quote][b]

Keith.Miller(at)esa.int
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 12:12 am Post subject: TR-1 Spar Repair Choice

If it were my plane ,  the only person i would listen to is Rich Trickel,

damage looks like it is limited to the close out plate  but the compression

on the  carbon  needs  his expert advice .

I would also not bother getting it repaired at a high 4 figure sum by a

sailplane  expert, but try to source an unfinished kit.

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  |"BlueSkyFlier" <bleuskyfly(at)teledynamix.com>                                                                                                           |

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  |kis-list(at)matronics.com                                                                                                                                |

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  |13/04/2011 01:23                                                                                                                                      |

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  |TR-1 Spar Repair Choice                                                                                                                     |

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  |owner-kis-list-server(at)matronics.com                                                                                                                   |

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As most of you know, my plane was damaged in a accident when taxiing in

February. Having dropped the wing, we found the rear left spar/support strut

broken on the wing side of the juction with the fuselage.  Enough space there

to implement a good and proper fix with alu sideplates added into the (on

both sides of the plane) so no problem.



The bigger issue is that the main spar has a compression fracture at top aft

corner of the spar beam where it exits from the spar box on the left side. A

photos of this is attached (with vernier calipers set to about one inch).

Luckily it is on the top side.



Question for Rich (or anyone else who has the knowledge) Ã¢â‚¬â€œ Do you perhaps

have access to a drawing of spar construction or could you describe it in

brief?



Today I visited two composite material workshops which specialize in

sailplane spar and wing construction and repair and have extended this

knowhow to other composite aircraft as well. The owner of one of these

enterprises has been building and repairing wings and spars since the

seventies and it is evident that the repair my wing spar is a nothing out of

the ordinary for them. In all those years they have never had a failure in a

repaired spar and hey have the knowhow, methods and tools required for the

job down pat.  He was kind enough to 'walk' me through the process and

equipment they would use. Pricey it is, yeah Ã¢â‚¬â€œ in the high four figures

sterling.



So now I have a dilemma. I can walk away and buy another plane for (say) 25

grand. Then I have a 2nd hand plane that I need to sort out from scratch.  On

the other hand I could apply that same 25 grand to completely repair and

refurbish the current plane including zero-timed (SMOH) engine, new paint job

and fixing all the niggles that I want sorted out (like rudder pedals, stress

on rudder horn, location of main gear, electric flaps, etc.) Then I have an

aircraft which is effectively refurbished to my standards and which I also

know inside-out by the time the job is done. [Note: I have already decided

that the time required to get the job done is not a factor in my equation.]



So what you do in my shoes? (assuming that I buy back the salvage for a

nominal sum, having already confirmed that competitive interest is

effectively non-existent).  I shall make up my own mind, donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t worry Ã¢â‚¬â€œ

just need different perspectives if you care to share.



Regards,

             Alfred



--------

_________________________________________





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=336753#336753





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mantafs(at)earthlink.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 4:50 am Post subject: TR-1 Spar Repair Choice

I assume he is talking British pounds so 25K is about $40K USD.  Of course this makes his high 4 figure cost to repair even higher for those of us on this side of the pond.



Mark



--

BlueSkyFlier

Joined: 27 Jan 2011
Posts: 74
Location: UK

Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 6:05 am Post subject: Re: TR-1 Spar Repair Choice

Thank you for all the contributions so far. Good food for thought )



Much obliged for the pointer to the wing information Scott! Attached a hi-res photo of the damaged area which will allow you to see where it is on the spar - hopefully it won't be stripped off by the moderator. I'm hoping that we will find that the carbon fibers on the top web of the c-section are intact. If so, the repair cost will drop by an order of magnitude.



In case the carbon is damaged I am also looking at the option to have  an entirely new wing built. For this I am working with people who routinely design and built huge hydro-electric turbine blades ... actually aircraft designers/builders who diversified into the turbine (wind and water) business.



I'm thinking that the cost to build new would be about the same as an extensive repair, given the simple wing construction of the KIS and that we can re-use the flaps and ailerons.



I already know of at least one other person who also requires a new wing. By building two wings we could at least split the non-recurring engineering costs. (While we are at it we'll obviously improve on the original.)



Anyone else out there who requires a new wing?  The more the merrier )



--**--

TR-1 Spar Damage.jpg

Description:

Damage to spar on top aft corner of spar where it exits the spar box on left side of aircraft.

Filesize:

1.74 MB

Viewed:

13272 Time(s)

_________________
_________________________________________

mantafs(at)earthlink.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 11:36 am Post subject: TR-1 Spar Repair Choice

The damage is very small BUT (and this is a very big but) there seems to be a small notch in the edge of the carbon fiber spar cap. If this was from compression then I would suspect the whole spar cap.  There is also the missing paint on the top (bottom?) of the spar.  This also makes me suspect the spar cap.  If this is the case then it may not be a good idea to try to repair the spar but it can be done by an expert.  The fibers do not need to run from one end to the other but the repair will require a large area to properly bond.  For example Rich supervised (or maybe did) the repair on the center spar of a TR4 that went to China.



If the missing paint and notch were caused by other things like abrasion over time then maybe the spat cap is ok.  But without looking at it in person I can not tell.



Mark

--

BlueSkyFlier

Joined: 27 Jan 2011
Posts: 74
Location: UK

Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 2:06 pm Post subject: Re: TR-1 Spar Repair Choice

You are right Mark.  There is some damage to the spar cap at the top rear of the C-section. The question uppermost in my mind is the following: Considering that damage resulted from compression, does damage to the resin matrix necessarily imply that the carbon fibres are broken? And even if the fibres are intact, could the resin matrix be repaired/strengthened effectively?



The intended repair method involves claving (I think that's the right word?) in new fibres with the old with a large overlap after cutting a very shallow V notch (3 feet slope on each side) at the crack location and then also repairing the shear web. Sounds similar to the repair job Rich supervised.



The front half of the spar cap and the integrity of junction to the spine of the C-section will remain uncompromised, because the damage is limited to the rear half of the top spar cap .



Naturally, repairing a main spar is anomalous to us in the GA world and we do tend to look on it with suspicion. It does however seem that it is par for the course in the sailplane world and the main contenders for the job has been doing main spar repairs for more than thirty years. 



Apparently the LAA (PFA) here will look kindly on the repair provided it is done by such a reputable sailplane repair outfit. I am trying to make contact with the LAA official in charge of such affairs who apparently expressed this opinion to a fellow KIS owner in Scotland, but establishing contact seems to be more difficult than making a call and leaving a request for a return call - an experience some of the UK guys may have shared when dealing with the LAA )



I must admit the option to walk away is tempting, but I'll make the final decision after considering all relevant information.



- Alfred

_________________
_________________________________________

richard_trickel(at)yahoo.
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 5:57 pm Post subject: TR-1 Spar Repair Choice

Alfred

 I have been reading the post regarding the wing.  the pictures were not so good so there is some question.  also there were no rear spar photos.  

Both scott and Mark are on the right path.  They should be since both are engineers and have a lot of experience with the kis a/c.  So heed their advice.  I would say that after a good exam of the damage area why not do a limit load test on the wing... It would take a little work but I would repair the shear web panel and then do the load test.

Mark if yopu read this could you tell him the best way to do this.  I would be cheaper than buying a new wing.  I doubt that Pulsar will be able to make one.

 Rich

--- On Wed, 4/13/11, BlueSkyFlier <bleuskyfly(at)teledynamix.com> wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		  

From: BlueSkyFlier <bleuskyfly(at)teledynamix.com>

Subject: Re: TR-1 Spar Repair Choice

To: kis-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Wednesday, April 13, 2011, 10:06 PM



 --> KIS-List message posted by: "BlueSkyFlier" <bleuskyfly(at)teledynamix.com>



You are right Mark.  There is some damage to the spar cap at the top rear of the C-section. The question uppermost in my mind is the following: Considering that damage resulted from compression, does damage to the resin matrix necessarily imply that the carbon fibres are broken? And even if the fibres are intact, could the resin matrix be repaired/strengthened effectively?



The intended repair method involves claving (I think that's the right word?) in new fibres with the old with a large overlap after cutting a very shallow V notch (3 feet slope on each side) at the crack location and then also repairing the shear web. Sounds similar to the repair job Rich supervised.



The front half of the spar cap  and the integrity of junction to the spine of the C-section will remain uncompromised, because the damage is limited to the rear half of the top spar cap .



Naturally, repairing a main spar is anomalous to us in the GA world and we do tend to look on it with suspicion. It does however seem that it is par for the course in the sailplane world and the main contenders for the job has been doing main spar repairs for more than thirty years. 



Apparently the LAA (PFA) here will look kindly on the repair provided it is done by such a reputable sailplane repair outfit. I am trying to make contact with the LAA official in charge of such affairs who apparently expressed this opinion to a fellow KIS owner in Scotland, but establishing contact seems to be more difficult than making a call and leaving a request for a return call - an experience some of the UK guys may have shared when dealing with the LAA )



I must admit the option to walk away  is tempting, but I'll make the final decision after considering all relevant information.



- Alfred



--------

_________________________________________





Read this topic online here:



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 [quote][b]

richard_trickel(at)yahoo.
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 5:57 pm Post subject: TR-1 Spar Repair Choice

--- On Wed, 4/13/11, Mark Kettering <mantafs(at)earthlink.net> wrote:

 [quote]

From: Mark Kettering <mantafs(at)earthlink.net>

Subject: Re: Re: TR-1 Spar Repair Choice

To: kis-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Wednesday, April 13, 2011, 7:04 PM

 --> KIS-List message posted by: Mark Kettering <mantafs(at)earthlink.net (mantafs(at)earthlink.net)>

The damage is very small BUT (and this is a very big but) there seems to be a small notch in the edge of the carbon fiber spar cap. If this was from compression then I would suspect the whole spar cap.  There is also the missing paint on the top (bottom?) of the spar.  This also makes me suspect the spar cap.  If this is the case then it may not be a good idea to try to repair the spar but it can be done by an expert.  The fibers do not need to run from one end to the other but the repair will require a large area to properly bond.  For example Rich supervised (or maybe did) the repair on the center spar of a TR4 that went to China.

If the missing paint and notch were caused by other things like  abrasion over time then maybe the spat cap is ok.  But without looking at it in person I can not tell.

Mark

--

sstearns2(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 7:43 pm Post subject: TR-1 Spar Repair Choice

It would break my heart if it were my airplane, but I'd take the money and walk away and find a new toy.  Maybe Mark will sell you his.

  

 Scott  

  

 



--- On Wed, 4/13/11, BlueSkyFlier <bleuskyfly(at)teledynamix.com> wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		  

From: BlueSkyFlier <bleuskyfly(at)teledynamix.com>

Subject: Re: TR-1 Spar Repair Choice

To: kis-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Wednesday, April 13, 2011, 3:06 PM



 --> KIS-List message posted by: "BlueSkyFlier" <bleuskyfly(at)teledynamix.com (bleuskyfly(at)teledynamix.com)>



You are right Mark.  There is some damage to the spar cap at the top rear of the C-section. The question uppermost in my mind is the following: Considering that damage resulted from compression, does damage to the resin matrix necessarily imply that the carbon fibres are broken? And even if the fibres are intact, could the resin matrix be repaired/strengthened effectively?



The intended repair method involves claving (I think that's the right word?) in new fibres with the old with a large overlap after cutting a very shallow V notch (3 feet slope on each side) at the crack location and then also repairing the shear web. Sounds similar to the repair job Rich supervised.



The front half of the spar  cap and the integrity of junction to the spine of the C-section will remain uncompromised, because the damage is limited to the rear half of the top spar cap .



Naturally, repairing a main spar is anomalous to us in the GA world and we do tend to look on it with suspicion. It does however seem that it is par for the course in the sailplane world and the main contenders for the job has been doing main spar repairs for more than thirty years. 



Apparently the LAA (PFA) here will look kindly on the repair provided it is done by such a reputable sailplane repair outfit. I am trying to make contact with the LAA official in charge of such affairs who apparently expressed this opinion to a fellow KIS owner in Scotland, but establishing contact seems to be more difficult than making a call and leaving a request for a return call - an experience some of the UK guys may have shared when dealing with the LAA )



I must admit the option to walk  away is tempting, but I'll make the final decision after considering all relevant information.



- Alfred



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Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=336867#336867Navigator?KIS-List" sp;--> http://f=             - List Contributionsp;                     &bsp;--> 



	
 [quote][b]

BlueSkyFlier

Joined: 27 Jan 2011
Posts: 74
Location: UK

Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 6:34 am Post subject: Re: TR-1 Spar Repair Choice

Thanks for all the sage advice guys.



I suspect most of you will nod approvingly upon the news that I have decided to take the money and walk after scanning what is available on the market. Plenty of good planes around to buy for the same money.



Another big factor in the decision to walk was that it became clear that the LAA will be as uninterested and intransigent as usual. That escalates the price that one gets charged for the job. Someone else commented on another web forum that "it sometimes seem that the LAA consider it as their remit to ground everything" and I'm beginning to see why he might have reached that conclusion. Almost feel like going back to microlight again ... at least that association has a positive can-do attitude.



I'll put in a silly bid for the salvage and see what happens. In the meantime I am trying to reach Pulsar to find out about purchasing two new TR-1 wings. The last edits to their web site were made on 1st of April and the SP100 (TR-1) is still advertised as one of their products. So there seems to be sporadic signs of life although none of the telephone numbers work and the email address bounces.



C'est la vie )

Ultimately, any accident one can walk away from is still something to be thankful for.



Fair winds and smooth landings.



- Alfred 



P.s  -- Rich, if you have means to reach Pulsar please let them know how to get in touch with me or vice versa?

_________________
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sstearns2(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 11:09 am Post subject: TR-1 Spar Repair Choice

You could build a new wing pretty quickly if you could get a set of parts somehow.  

  

 You really only need the main spar and wing skins.  You could make the ribs and rear spar yourself pretty easily and you already have the flaps/ailerons/wing tips and even those you could make yourself.  I made my own wingtips.  (I have a set of factory wingtips if anyone ever needs a replacement set.)  

  

 It might be worth it for Rich (or Mark?) to make the tooling just for the wing skins and spar concidering there are other fuselage kits out there without a wing.  It would only be three tools since the wing is not tapered (top skin, bottom skin, spar).  I know there is at least one fuselage kit owner with no wing.  

  

 The only downside is that the spar is about 20 feet long which makes shipping more of a challenge.  

  

 Scott

  

   



--- On Fri, 4/15/11, BlueSkyFlier <bleuskyfly(at)teledynamix.com> wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		  

From: BlueSkyFlier <bleuskyfly(at)teledynamix.com>

Subject: Re: TR-1 Spar Repair Choice

To: kis-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Friday, April 15, 2011, 7:34 AM



 --> KIS-List message posted by: "BlueSkyFlier" <bleuskyfly(at)teledynamix.com (bleuskyfly(at)teledynamix.com)>



Thanks for all the sage advice guys.



I suspect most of you will nod approvingly upon the news that I have decided to take the money and walk after scanning what is available on the market. Plenty of good planes around to buy for the same money.



Another big factor in the decision to walk was that it became clear that the LAA will be as uninterested and intransigent as usual. That escalates the price that one gets charged for the job. Someone else commented on another web forum that "it sometimes seem that the LAA consider it as their remit to ground everything" and I'm beginning to see why he might have reached that conclusion. Almost feel like going back to microlight again ... at least that  association has a positive can-do attitude.



I'll put in a silly bid for the salvage and see what happens. In the meantime I am trying to reach Pulsar to find out about purchasing two new TR-1 wings. The last edits to their web site were made on 1st of April and the SP100 (TR-1) is still advertised as one of their products. So there seems to be sporadic signs of life although none of the telephone numbers work and the email address bounces.



C'est la vie )

Ultimately, any accident one can walk away from is still something to be thankful for.



Fair winds and smooth landings.



- Alfred 



P.s  -- Rich, if you have means to reach Pulsar please let them know how to get in touch with me or vice versa?



--------

_________________________________________





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=337008#33700Navigator?KIS-List" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-;            - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -



	
 [quote][b]

BlueSkyFlier

Joined: 27 Jan 2011
Posts: 74
Location: UK

Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 1:15 pm Post subject: Re: TR-1 Spar Repair Choice

If one is in need a new wing the shipping is a minor inconvenience.



Our aircraft are going to be around for some time and it is clear that the wings are the most vulnerable (for obvious reasons).



So I'm sure that a number of wings will be required in future - at least two or three already at this moment.  



I'm hoping Pulsar can revive the TR-1 wing kit (at least )

_________________
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mantafs(at)earthlink.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 5:55 pm Post subject: TR-1 Spar Repair Choice

I am not sure if it would be cost effective but I could take molds off my wing for the skins and make a spar and other molds if you and others needed replacement parts.  Of course if there were a few people wanting wing parts at the same time then it would more cost effective.



Mark



--

bakerocb

Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 727
Location: FAIRFAX VA

Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 6:11 pm Post subject: TR-1 Spar Repair Choice

4/15/2011



Hello Alfred, You wrote: "..... the SP100 (TR-1) is still advertised as one 

of their products...."



Pulsar changed the name of the KIS TR-1 to Sport 150 . See here:



http://www.pilotfriend.com/experimental/acft4/20.htm



The SP 100 is a different airplane. See here:



http://www.pilotmix.com/index.php?pgid=11&lang=en&maxInfo=169



OC



=============================================

From: "BlueSkyFlier" <bleuskyfly(at)teledynamix.com>

To: <kis-list(at)matronics.com>

Sent: Friday, April 15, 2011 10:34 AM

Subject: Re: TR-1 Spar Repair Choice

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <bleuskyfly(at)teledynamix.com>



 Thanks for all the sage advice guys.



 I suspect most of you will nod approvingly upon the news that I have 

 decided to take the money and walk after scanning what is available on the 

 market. Plenty of good planes around to buy for the same money.



 Another big factor in the decision to walk was that it became clear that 

 the LAA will be as uninterested and intransigent as usual. That escalates 

 the price that one gets charged for the job. Someone else commented on 

 another web forum that "it sometimes seem that the LAA consider it as 

 their remit to ground everything" and I'm beginning to see why he might 

 have reached that conclusion. Almost feel like going back to microlight 

 again ... at least that association has a positive can-do attitude.



 I'll put in a silly bid for the salvage and see what happens. In the 

 meantime I am trying to reach Pulsar to find out about purchasing two new 

 TR-1 wings. The last edits to their web site were made on 1st of April and 

 the SP100 (TR-1) is still advertised as one of their products. So there 

 seems to be sporadic signs of life although none of the telephone numbers 

 work and the email address bounces.



 C'est la vie )

 Ultimately, any accident one can walk away from is still something to be 

 thankful for.



 Fair winds and smooth landings.



 - Alfred



 P.s  -- Rich, if you have means to reach Pulsar please let them know how 

 to get in touch with me or vice versa?

BlueSkyFlier

Joined: 27 Jan 2011
Posts: 74
Location: UK

Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2011 5:49 am Post subject: Re: TR-1 Spar Repair Choice

That might have been the case before OC, but I'm afraid you information is out of date. Things have changed again since. The picture and specs listed for the SP100 on Pulsar's latest website is clearly that of the TR-1.



Or would you say the attached picture is not a TRI KIS TR-1  )



Cheers.

Pulsar SP100 aka TR-1.png

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_________________
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mantafs(at)earthlink.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2011 6:05 am Post subject: TR-1 Spar Repair Choice

That is not a TR1!  It may be a TR4.  I think it is what they are calling a Super Cruiser 300.  They also have what they are calling a 600 that is a six seat.



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