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Oil Filters
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flyadive(at)gmail.com
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 1:39 pm    Post subject: Oil Filters Reply with quote

Rich:

It has been a few years since I flew a 235.  But, don't they have oil fill necks and dip sticks?


Why did you have to WAIT till you received an oil analysis report to find out that you had a broken ring?  SEE what happens when you put your FEELINGS ahead of common sense.  And that is why most GA pilots get oil analysis done ... FEELINGS!  It gives them a warm and fuzzy.  So what does a oil fill neck and a dip stick have to do with it?  Just LQQK at thew COLOR of the oil and that should tell you something!  If it changes to dark/black in a short time you KNOW something is wrong.  A broken ring will cause the oil to go dark/black in a very short time.  But you were willing to wait till you got the oil analysis results before you or your partner just LQQK'd at the oil!


Do you have EGT & CHT probes on that plane? If so HIGH CHT will be SCREAMING - Something is wrong.  OK, No CHT on the plane... Surely you have an Oil Temp Gage!  That would also be increasing as the blow-by increases with a broken ring as as the the temps increase.


Compression Check - Next to useless.  As someone just said ... How often do you do a compression check; once a year at annual?  So just as waiting for Annual Time to fix a problem waiting for oil analysis results delays a prompt response.


So, once again one is expecting a warm fuzzy feeling - AFTER the fact.  One is relying on analysis company NOT to make a mistake.  Meanwhile people think they are doing something good for their engine.  They are doing NOTHING for their engine, they are ONLY justifying their actions with Monday Morning Quarterbacking.  
Also as I stated and explained with facts ... What are you really analyzing, oil that has had   71% of the oil replaced in a 50 hour period.  


Think of it this way:
If you changed your oil at 30 hour intervals you would know and see the color of the oil.  
So and quick change in color or smell would be much easily detected.  And this is something that does not require a huge delay in time while operating your engine under adverse conditions.
AND MAYBE - If the oil was changed sooner you would have not had a ring failure.  OK!  I'm really stretching with that statement. 


So don't go patting yourself on the back for having your oil analyzed OR for waiting to get a analysis report and making a phone call.  OR for making the decision to fly back home with a bad ring.  So as you say: "What more evidence would anyone need to become a believer???"


Barry
PS:
By the way - Flying back is another entire decision making process that could go under the folder of: "I learned from that".


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 2:48 pm    Post subject: Oil Filters Reply with quote

When confronted with facts or observations that disagree with one's religion or politics, speculate about missed observations or mistakes and by all means, attack.

End of wasted time and futile communication.

Regards,

Rich
===============================================================
On 1/21/2011 4:30 PM, FLYaDIVE wrote: [quote]Rich:

It has been a few years since I flew a 235. But, don't they have oil fill necks and dip sticks?


Why did you have to WAIT till you received an oil analysis report to find out that you had a broken ring? SEE what happens when you put your FEELINGS ahead of common sense. And that is why most GA pilots get oil analysis done ... FEELINGS! It gives them a warm and fuzzy. So what does a oil fill neck and a dip stick have to do with it? Just LQQK at thew COLOR of the oil and that should tell you something! If it changes to dark/black in a short time you KNOW something is wrong. A broken ring will cause the oil to go dark/black in a very short time. But you were willing to wait till you got the oil analysis results before you or your partner just LQQK'd at the oil!


Do you have EGT & CHT probes on that plane? If so HIGH CHT will be SCREAMING - Something is wrong. OK, No CHT on the plane... Surely you have an Oil Temp Gage! That would also be increasing as the blow-by increases with a broken ring as as the the temps increase.


Compression Check - Next to useless. As someone just said ... How often do you do a compression check; once a year at annual? So just as waiting for Annual Time to fix a problem waiting for oil analysis results delays a prompt response.


So, once again one is expecting a warm fuzzy feeling - AFTER the fact. One is relying on analysis company NOT to make a mistake. Meanwhile people think they are doing something good for their engine. They are doing NOTHING for their engine, they are ONLY justifying their actions with Monday Morning Quarterbacking.
Also as I stated and explained with facts ... What are you really analyzing, oil that has had 71% of the oil replaced in a 50 hour period.


Think of it this way:
If you changed your oil at 30 hour intervals you would know and see the color of the oil.
So and quick change in color or smell would be much easily detected. And this is something that does not require a huge delay in time while operating your engine under adverse conditions.
AND MAYBE - If the oil was changed sooner you would have not had a ring failure. OK! I'm really stretching with that statement.


So don't go patting yourself on the back for having your oil analyzed OR for waiting to get a analysis report and making a phone call. OR for making the decision to fly back home with a bad ring. So as you say: "What more evidence would anyone need to become a believer???"


Barry
PS:
By the way - Flying back is another entire decision making process that could go under the folder of: "I learned from that".


Quote:

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 3:08 pm    Post subject: Oil Filters Reply with quote

The more you talk, the more I want to do oil analysis.

Keep talking.

Bernard

On 21/01/2011 2:30 PM, FLYaDIVE wrote: [quote]Rich:

It has been a few years since I flew a 235. But, don't they have oil fill necks and dip sticks?


Why did you have to WAIT till you received an oil analysis report to find out that you had a broken ring? SEE what happens when you put your FEELINGS ahead of common sense. And that is why most GA pilots get oil analysis done ... FEELINGS! It gives them a warm and fuzzy. So what does a oil fill neck and a dip stick have to do with it? Just LQQK at thew COLOR of the oil and that should tell you something! If it changes to dark/black in a short time you KNOW something is wrong. A broken ring will cause the oil to go dark/black in a very short time. But you were willing to wait till you got the oil analysis results before you or your partner just LQQK'd at the oil!


Do you have EGT & CHT probes on that plane? If so HIGH CHT will be SCREAMING - Something is wrong. OK, No CHT on the plane... Surely you have an Oil Temp Gage! That would also be increasing as the blow-by increases with a broken ring as as the the temps increase.


Compression Check - Next to useless. As someone just said ... How often do you do a compression check; once a year at annual? So just as waiting for Annual Time to fix a problem waiting for oil analysis results delays a prompt response.


So, once again one is expecting a warm fuzzy feeling - AFTER the fact. One is relying on analysis company NOT to make a mistake. Meanwhile people think they are doing something good for their engine. They are doing NOTHING for their engine, they are ONLY justifying their actions with Monday Morning Quarterbacking.
Also as I stated and explained with facts ... What are you really analyzing, oil that has had 71% of the oil replaced in a 50 hour period.


Think of it this way:
If you changed your oil at 30 hour intervals you would know and see the color of the oil.
So and quick change in color or smell would be much easily detected. And this is something that does not require a huge delay in time while operating your engine under adverse conditions.
AND MAYBE - If the oil was changed sooner you would have not had a ring failure. OK! I'm really stretching with that statement.


So don't go patting yourself on the back for having your oil analyzed OR for waiting to get a analysis report and making a phone call. OR for making the decision to fly back home with a bad ring. So as you say: "What more evidence would anyone need to become a believer???"


Barry
PS:
By the way - Flying back is another entire decision making process that could go under the folder of: "I learned from that".


Quote:

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Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 1188
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 3:30 pm    Post subject: Oil Filters Reply with quote

I'm sorry, but your claim that the oil would be a different color with a broken ring just shows you have no experience with broken rings. A single broken ring that stays in its groove will have little impact on the operation of the engine, the blow by, etc. All that is different is the cylinder wall is getting scratched and a few tiny shavings collected. Just my experience dealing with broken rings and other stuff over the last 35 yrs. You simply aren't going to tell anything unless you have severe blow by contaminating the oil. A broken ring does not cause severe blow by unless there is other damage.
KM
A&P/IA

On Fri, Jan 21, 2011 at 2:30 PM, FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com (flyadive(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
Rich:

It has been a few years since I flew a 235.  But, don't they have oil fill necks and dip sticks?


Why did you have to WAIT till you received an oil analysis report to find out that you had a broken ring?  SEE what happens when you put your FEELINGS ahead of common sense.  And that is why most GA pilots get oil analysis done ... FEELINGS!  It gives them a warm and fuzzy.  So what does a oil fill neck and a dip stick have to do with it?  Just LQQK at thew COLOR of the oil and that should tell you something!  If it changes to dark/black in a short time you KNOW something is wrong.  A broken ring will cause the oil to go dark/black in a very short time.  But you were willing to wait till you got the oil analysis results before you or your partner just LQQK'd at the oil!



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 3:46 pm    Post subject: Oil Filters Reply with quote

Hello Noel:

The 100 Hour interval with spin on oil filters is not my idea, but I do go along with it.  
In my training I had two A&P use this 100 Hour approach ONLY if the customer agreed.
The spin on filters are so much more efficent than the origional oil screen filters that 50 hours is really not a long time.  When considering this approach you also consider two things:
1 - The spin on is much more efficient than the screen.
2 - Inspection of the filter material. 
The inspection consists of looking at the filter material on BOTH sides with a very bright light and magnification.  Yes you will find particles on the input side, most of those particles will be BLACK in color.  They are carbon and they are HUGE in size.  They will not get through the filter.  
Now look at the revers side of the filter.  The filter looks almost new, other than for some color change due to oil color.  
The filter is good for filtering down to 4 to 10 microns <-- Manufacture dependent.
So the filter is doing what it should and so much more than a screen.  
NEXT - Consider that with the procedure I outlined you will be changing the OIL at 30/33 Hour intervals the oil itself will be so much more cleaner than at 50 Hours.  So contamination is really not the same issue that is addressed at 50 hours.  That is 55% to 60% sooner so why not extend the oil change by the same amount?
[b]So, in reality there are no particles getting past the filter to do any damage.[/b]


I would venture your next statement would be ... But a cleanER filter can't hurt!
I agree 100% -  It is all in what one is comfortable with, 50 Hrs Vs 100 Hrs Vs 30 Hr oil change Vs 50 Hr oil change.
In my approach the savings co$t of not doing the oil analysis can be redirected to doing more oil changes.  


hey it can't hurt Smile


Barry
==============================
Short follow up story - FLEET OIL ANALYSIS
My neighbor is the Shop Director of a School Bus Company.  For years he did oil analysis on the buses.  He continually had to rebuild engines, more than he felt was normal.  Just for S&G's he sent in two samples:
1 - Totally BLACK that ONLY had carbon from the exhaust pipe, BRAND NEW OIL mind you.
Report came back as bad rings and babets.
2 - Oil from an engine that seized.
Report came back as NORMAL WARE.


He STOPPED doing analysis and just changed the oil filter more often.
These buses had oil capacities of 12 and 16 Quarts (if I recall).  The filter was the less expensive item to replace.


Smile


Later,
Barry




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PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 5:05 pm    Post subject: Oil Filters Reply with quote

My point:  analysis is of value as is opening the filters.  Using both is a good idea.

Noel

From: owner-engines-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-engines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Dudley
Sent: January 21, 2011 11:19 AM
To: engines-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: Oil Filters

Just to complete the story of the Cherokee 235 with the broken ring. The 235 had a Lycoming O-540, a six cylinder engine de-rated to 235 hp.
It had been our procedure to send an oil sample for analysis at every oil change. So, we had a well documented baseline when we got an abnormal analysis. The analysis company who had done our previous analyses noted it immediately and notified us by telephone even before we received the detailed analysis by mail. They told us that the result, because of higher than normal iron and aluminum, and some other elements unique to the rings, that it probably was a broken ring.
If there was a drop in compression on one out of six cylinders it was not noticed in the performance of the engine and it was not normal practice to do a compression test between annuals without some reason.
This experience was a clear cut justification and stone simple reinforcement for the minimal inconvenience and trivial expense of having an oil analysis at each oil change. What more evidence would anyone need to become a believer???

And, why would anyone argue vehemently against such a simple, inexpensive monitor of engine health??

Rich

On 1/20/2011 11:34 PM, Noel Loveys wrote:
With the damage you describe it would have to show up in an oil analysis. This is a clear place where charting the results from change to change would have been helpful.
Quote:

As for oil analysis being a waste of time and money it sure is, if you don’t keep up the schedule and don’t bother to chart the results.

Oil analysis will show problems that you won’t catch in a filter but what does it hurt to open a filter and have a look at the medium? If you find anything it could save you lot$ of $$$ before an analysis is returned.

On oil changes the short of it is more is better but filter changes are probably more important. Especially if your engine has a pressure by pass on the filter.

Noel



From: owner-engines-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-engines-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-engines-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-engines-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Gary Vogt
Sent: January 20, 2011 3:37 PM
To: engines-list(at)matronics.com (engines-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Re: Oil Filters

Quote " Flash forward to 1999. Sure enough, he had 1999 hours on his plane . . . give or take a few. At 1999 hrs, he opted for a LyCon overhaul. When the owner brought me his plane, he told me, "This should be an easy overhaul. I don't want anything fancy like port and polish or anything else. Just the basic overhaul. I've set aside about $18,000 to cover the costs."



Engine comes off and goes to Lycon. I told Ken about the oil analysis and ADC oil filter and that the owner expects this to be a simple overhaul.



The next time I talked to Ken, he told me the engine would need to be aligned bored (the case had been chafing), the crank needed to be reground (it was out of tolerance, the rod bearings were bad and had chewed up the crank), it would need a new cam and lifters (this plane was flown over 300 hours a year), and it would need new cylinders (the cylinders had too many cracks in them to repair.) "


--------------

Bottom line. The oil analysis for the entire time he owned the plane did not tell him his engine was trashed.



Oil analysis is a waste of time and money.



As for fleet operators, they too could save a lot of money just by inspecting the oil filter.



From: Doug Dodson <douglas.dodson(at)pobox.com> (douglas.dodson(at)pobox.com)
To: engines-list(at)matronics.com (engines-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Thu, January 20, 2011 6:57:07 AM
Subject: RE: Re: Oil Filters
I thought it went without saying, but of course oil analysis is about trend monitoring. A single report has little value. The utility comes by having a series of reports at regular intervals. The reports are normalized to account for the makeup oil added between samples. Have a sample analyzed at each oil change. The trend analysis will show an issue before the oil filter does.
 
 
- Doug


 

From: owner-engines-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-engines-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-engines-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-engines-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Noel Loveys
Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 6:26 AM
To: engines-list(at)matronics.com (engines-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: RE: Re: Oil Filters


I agree with you Barry except about running the filter for 100 hr. If there is anything in the filter running it another fifty or in this case 67 hr won’t do anything good for the engine. Change it at the 33 hr with the oil. In fact if you can’t get fresh oil I would recommend changing the filter anyway.

Oil analysis is something I would recommend for fleet operators... give the bean counters something to do. As you said without a base line to work form you won’t be able to notice trends in the precipitate. Anyone who is paying for oil analysis should keep a chart of the results and keep both the chart and the reports in the engine log. That way as they update the chart after each report they will have to see if trends continue or if one or more constituents are increasing.

Noel

From: owner-engines-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-engines-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-engines-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-engines-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of FLYaDIVE
Sent: January 20, 2011 1:39 AM
To: engines-list(at)matronics.com (engines-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Re: Oil Filters


AN OIL ANALYSIS IS A WASTE OF MONEY!


OK, do I have your attention?



Here is why...



Lets say you are running one of the two major manufacture engines and you have a oil consumption of 1 quart in 10 hours.

This is slightly above average for Lycoming & Continental, usually 1 Qt in 8 to 9 hours is more common.



Next is the quantity of oil your engine holds.

Again for the big two 8 Qts is what is stamped on your dip stick.

BUT! If you put in 8 Qts you are blowing out one Qt in the first hour... So, 7 Qts is more in line with what you should be using.

So lets use 7 Qts for this exercise.

Now, what kind of oil filter are you using? Lets say you have a Spin On or ADC filter.

That give you 50 Hours of flight time before you should change your oil.

If you have the standard screen you will be doing an oil change in 25 hours.

But, we will work with 50 hours.

You can do the same math with 25 hours but that will really scare you.



OK, here we go....

50 hours divided by 10 hours per qt = 5 Qts - That means 5 Qts will be added between oil changes.

If yo want to use 8 hrs per Qt then...

50 / 8 = 6.26 Qts

What does that mean?

Well, When you take your oil sample to ship out for oil analysis you have already replace ... Wait for it ..

Case #1 --- 5/7ths of your oil capacity. That is 71.4% of the oil capacity in your engine.

Case #2 --- 6.26/7ths of your oil capacity. That is 89.4% of the oil capacity in your engine.



SOOoooo What are you really checking? Only the remaining oil after 5/7ths or 6.26/7ths of the oil has been swapped out.

Now some may say that is OK as long as you always swap out the same amount.

For me that is not good data.



Oh, how much does it cost for oil analysis, I think it is $12 to $15 plus shipping.

Let's say $15... That is about 1/3 the cost of a case of oil.

Or, 47.6% of the cost of a single oil change. (7 Qts x $4.50/Qt = $31.50)



NOW! You want to do something good for your engine and spend the same amount of money?

Take that $15 and do an oil change at 33 Hours ... That is 1/3 sooner.

What about the Oil Filter? Change it ONLY at 100 Hour intervals.

You will now have cleaner oil going through your engine AND your filter.

For those of you that are already changing your filter at 100 Hrs .. Stretch it to 130 Hrs.



One last point. After reading a few oil analysis reports. What one thing do they all have in common?

There is a statement at the bottom that reads something like this: More Data is Required for Trend Analysis.

When it comes to this, I have stories for you!



Bottom line: Oil changed regularly does more for an engine and YOUR piece of mind than any after the fact piece of paper.



Barry








On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 8:40 PM, <Speedy11(at)aol.com (Speedy11(at)aol.com)> wrote:
Doug,

Nobody is arguing with you. An oil analysis is a great idea. We've all used the same reasoning you did.

I was offering no technique at all - so there was no anecdotal evidence on which to base said technique. And I'm not sure what question the word cautionary begs.

Getting an oil analysis is a great technique. Keep it up.

Stan Sutterfield

Do not archive





In a message dated 1/19/2011 3:06:31 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, engines-list(at)matronics.com (engines-list(at)matronics.com) writes:
Quote:

That technique is based on anecdotal evidence at best. The term
"cautionary" begs the question. You can do what everyone else does, same as
the lemming. Good science is nice, good engineering is even better. Both
require data (or evidence) to in order to follow accepted practice.
Price out for yourself an oil analysis. Familiarize yourself with the
credentials and writings of Mike Busch. Price out an overhaul, then price
out an accident that almost totals the aircraft (assuming you have
insurance). Balance the costs versus the benefits. I have not even asked
you to include an analysis of the cost for injury or death.
Oil analysis can't prevent every bad thing, but knowledge is still power,
and the price of this knowledge is less than that of 3 gallons of fuel. The
science (or engineering) is well founded.
- Doug target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Engines-Listtp://forums.matronics.com_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 5:05 pm    Post subject: Oil Filters Reply with quote

Sounds like a ring that was not gapped correctly and it broke when it expanded with the heat of combustion and the ring end met with enough force to buckle (cylinder scoring) and then break.

From: Gary Vogt <teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com>
To: engines-list(at)matronics.com
Cc:
Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 9:44 PM
Subject: Re: Re: Oil Filters

what kind of engine?


Pulling the engine through will reveal a weak cylinder.


Flying a plane with which you are familiar will reveal a weak engine.


From: Richard Dudley <rhdudley1(at)bellsouth.net>
To: engines-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Thu, January 20, 2011 11:54:29 AM
Subject: Re: Re: Oil Filters

To answer your questions:
1. Possibly, a compression test would pick up a broken ring. But the next compression test would be done at the next annual which would have been done months later with the damage continuing.
2. We don't know how what caused the ring to break. The engine had approximately 700 hours since new.
3. There were no signs of detonation and the problem did not recur.
4. The oil analysis picked up the broken ring because of the scoring of the cylinder wall and the increased of the elements from the scored cylinder wall and scored piston. And yes, the cylinder wall was scored as well as the piston. The damage was enough to replace both the piston and cylinder. Though it was about 40 years ago, I still have the piston with its gouges.
4. That experience convinced us that the investments of, whatever, $10-$15 and a few minutes of our time were worthwhile.

Regards,
Rich

On 1/20/2011 2:09 PM, Gary Vogt wrote:
Quote:
If the engine had a broken ring, a compression test would have picked it up.


Besides, how would a ring break? Detonation? If that's the case, there is more damage than just the ring.


From: Richard Dudley <rhdudley1(at)bellsouth.net> (rhdudley1(at)bellsouth.net)
To: engines-list(at)matronics.com (engines-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Thu, January 20, 2011 7:30:24 AM
Subject: Re: Re: Oil Filters

I've been following the thread with interest and thought that I'd add my "anecdotal" tidbit.

Some years ago with my jointly owned Cherokee 235 we routinely had oil analysis done at each oil change. Soon after an oil change, my partner was away with the plane when I received a phone call from the analysis company that the results were grossly abnormal. Their conclusion from the predominant changes in a couple of elements was that there was a broken ring. I managed to contact my partner with those results. He had the cylinders bore scoped and found the scored cylinder with the broken ring. The consensus was that it was safe to return home with the broken ring. Upon return to home base, the cylinder and piston were replaced. Without the analysis and until that cylinder showed major loss of compression, we would not have known of the broken ring. The implications of continuing to run the engine with broken ring seem undesirable.

Rich Dudley

On 1/20/2011 9:57 AM, Doug Dodson wrote:
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I thought it went without saying, but of course oil analysis
is about


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trend monitoring. A single report has little value. The
utility


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comes by having a series of reports at regular intervals. The

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reports are normalized to account for the makeup oil added
between


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samples. Have a sample analyzed at each oil change. The trend

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analysis will show an issue before the oil filter does.

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- Doug

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-------------------------

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*From:*owner-engines-list-server(at)matronics.com

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[mailto:owner-engines-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-engines-list-server(at)matronics.com)] *On Behalf
Of *Noel


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Loveys *Sent:* Thursday, January 20, 2011 6:26 AM *To:*

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engines-list(at)matronics.com (engines-list(at)matronics.com) *Subject:* RE: Re:
Oil


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Filters

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I agree with you Barry except about running the filter for
100 hr.


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If there is anything in the filter running it another fifty
or in


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this case 67 hr won’t do anything good for the engine. Change
it at


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the 33 hr with the oil. In fact if you can’t get fresh oil I
would


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recommend changing the filter anyway.

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Oil analysis is something I would recommend for fleet
operators...


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give the bean counters something to do. As you said without a
base


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line to work form you won’t be able to notice trends in the

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precipitate. Anyone who is paying for oil analysis should
keep a


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chart of the results and keep both the chart and the reports
in the


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engine log. That way as they update the chart after each
report they


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will have to see if trends continue or if one or more
constituents


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are increasing.

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Noel

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*From:*owner-engines-list-server(at)matronics.com

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[mailto:owner-engines-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-engines-list-server(at)matronics.com)] *On Behalf
Of


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*FLYaDIVE *Sent:* January 20, 2011 1:39 AM *To:*

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engines-list(at)matronics.com (engines-list(at)matronics.com) *Subject:* Re: Re:
Oil


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Filters

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AN OIL ANALYSIS IS A WASTE OF MONEY!

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OK, do I have your attention?

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Here is why...

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Lets say you are running one of the two major manufacture
engines and


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you have a oil consumption of 1 quart in 10 hours.

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This is slightly above average for Lycoming &
Continental, usually 1


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Qt in 8 to 9 hours is more common.

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Next is the quantity of oil your engine holds.

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Again for the big two 8 Qts is what is stamped on your dip
stick.


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BUT! If you put in 8 Qts you are blowing out one Qt in the
first


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hour... So, 7 Qts is more in line with what you should be
using.


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So lets use 7 Qts for this exercise.

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Now, what kind of oil filter are you using? Lets say you have
a Spin


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On or ADC filter.

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That give you 50 Hours of flight time before you should
change your


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oil.

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If you have the standard screen you will be doing an oil
change in 25


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hours.

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But, we will work with 50 hours.

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You can do the same math with 25 hours but that will really
scare


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you.

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OK, here we go....

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50 hours divided by 10 hours per qt = 5 Qts - That means 5
Qts will


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be added between oil changes.

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If yo want to use 8 hrs per Qt then...

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50 / 8 = 6.26 Qts

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What does that mean?

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Well, When you take your oil sample to ship out for oil
analysis you


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have already replace ... Wait for it ...

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Case #1 --- 5/7ths of your oil capacity. That is 71.4% of the
oil


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capacity in your engine.

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Case #2 --- 6.26/7ths of your oil capacity. That is 89.4% of
the oil


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capacity in your engine.

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SOOoooo What are you really checking? Only the remaining oil
after


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5/7ths or 6.26/7ths of the oil has been swapped out.

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Now some may say that is OK as long as you always swap out
the same


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amount.

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For me that is not good data.

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Oh, how much does it cost for oil analysis, I think it is $12
to $15


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plus shipping.

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Let's say $15... That is about 1/3 the cost of a case of oil.

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Or, 47.6% of the cost of a single oil change. (7 Qts x
$4.50/Qt =


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$31.50)

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NOW! You want to do something good for your engine and spend
the


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same amount of money?

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Take that $15 and do an oil change at 33 Hours ... That is
1/3


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sooner.

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What about the Oil Filter? Change it ONLY at 100 Hour
intervals.


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You will now have cleaner oil going through your engine AND
your


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filter.

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For those of you that are already changing your filter at 100
Hrs ...


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Stretch it to 130 Hrs.

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One last point. After reading a few oil analysis reports.
What one


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thing do they all have in common?

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There is a statement at the bottom that reads something like
this:


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More Data is Required for Trend Analysis.

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When it comes to this, I have stories for you!

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Bottom line: Oil changed regularly does more for an engine
and YOUR


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piece of mind than any after the fact piece of paper.

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Barry

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On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 8:40 PM, <Speedy11(at)aol.com (Speedy11(at)aol.com)

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<mailto:Speedy11(at)aol.com> (Speedy11(at)aol.com)> wrote:

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Doug,

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Nobody is arguing with you. An oil analysis is a great idea.
We've


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all used the same reasoning you did.

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I was offering no technique at all - so there was no
anecdotal


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evidence on which to base said technique. And I'm not sure
what


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question the word cautionary begs.

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Getting an oil analysis is a great technique. Keep it up.

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Stan Sutterfield

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Do not archive

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In a message dated 1/19/2011 3:06:31 A.M. Eastern Standard
Time,


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engines-list(at)matronics.com (engines-list(at)matronics.com)
<mailto:engines-list(at)matronics.com> (engines-list(at)matronics.com)


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writes:

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That technique is based on anecdotal evidence at best. The
term


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"cautionary" begs the question. You can do what everyone else
does,


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same as the lemming. Good science is nice, good engineering
is even


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better. Both require data (or evidence) to in order to follow

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accepted practice.

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Price out for yourself an oil analysis. Familiarize yourself
with


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the credentials and writings of Mike Busch. Price out an
overhaul,


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then price out an accident that almost totals the aircraft
(assuming


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you have insurance). Balance the costs versus the benefits. I
have


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not even asked you to include an analysis of the cost for
injury or


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death.

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Oil analysis can't prevent every bad thing, but knowledge is
still


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power, and the price of this knowledge is less than that of 3
gallons


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of fuel. The science (or engineering) is well founded.

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- Doug

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Float Flyr



Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 5:38 pm    Post subject: Oil Filters Reply with quote

For what the analysis costs $15-20 I think was listed here, it is precious little. The same goes for replacing the filter with each change.

I used to do regular scheduled inspections of bush planes (floats) and other GA aircraft. Some had the spin on filters and others had the screens. We took samples of oil washed form the screens for inspection. We also opened each filter and on at least one occasion found babbit in the oil... a bearing was fried. Because all those airplanes were in commercial operation oil samples were always sent to a lab for analysis.

One of the things I found interesting was several of the owners would balk at putting a $25. Part on their airplane, the source of their income and their major investment. Yet without blinking an eye would put out a thousand dollars for an add on for their pickup truck... Go figure.... Helicopter owners are another quintal of fish. They have no problem in replacing a $11,000 turbine power wheel if there is the slightest question or low power from the engine.

Noel

From: owner-engines-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-engines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of FLYaDIVE
Sent: January 21, 2011 8:10 PM
To: engines-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: Oil Filters


Hello Noel:


The 100 Hour interval with spin on oil filters is not my idea, but I do go along with it.

In my training I had two A&P use this 100 Hour approach ONLY if the customer agreed.

The spin on filters are so much more efficent than the origional oil screen filters that 50 hours is really not a long time. When considering this approach you also consider two things:

1 - The spin on is much more efficient than the screen.

2 - Inspection of the filter material.

The inspection consists of looking at the filter material on BOTH sides with a very bright light and magnification. Yes you will find particles on the input side, most of those particles will be BLACK in color. They are carbon and they are HUGE in size. They will not get through the filter.

Now look at the revers side of the filter. The filter looks almost new, other than for some color change due to oil color.

The filter is good for filtering down to 4 to 10 microns <-- Manufacture dependent.

So the filter is doing what it should and so much more than a screen.

NEXT - Consider that with the procedure I outlined you will be changing the OIL at 30/33 Hour intervals the oil itself will be so much more cleaner than at 50 Hours. So contamination is really not the same issue that is addressed at 50 hours. That is 55% to 60% sooner so why not extend the oil change by the same amount?

So, in reality there are no particles getting past the filter to do any damage.



I would venture your next statement would be ... But a cleanER filter can't hurt!

I agree 100% - It is all in what one is comfortable with, 50 Hrs Vs 100 Hrs Vs 30 Hr oil change Vs 50 Hr oil change.

In my approach the savings co$t of not doing the oil analysis can be redirected to doing more oil changes.



hey it can't hurt Smile



Barry

==============================

Short follow up story - FLEET OIL ANALYSIS

My neighbor is the Shop Director of a School Bus Company. For years he did oil analysis on the buses. He continually had to rebuild engines, more than he felt was normal. Just for S&G's he sent in two samples:

1 - Totally BLACK that ONLY had carbon from the exhaust pipe, BRAND NEW OIL mind you.

Report came back as bad rings and babets.

2 - Oil from an engine that seized.

Report came back as NORMAL WARE.



He STOPPED doing analysis and just changed the oil filter more often.

These buses had oil capacities of 12 and 16 Quarts (if I recall). The filter was the less expensive item to replace.



Smile



Later,

Barry




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Float Flyr



Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 5:42 pm    Post subject: Oil Filters Reply with quote

I would suggest that shortening the term between oil changes and analysis are both Pro-active, obviously in different ways

Noel

From: owner-engines-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-engines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of FLYaDIVE
Sent: January 21, 2011 9:36 PM
To: engines-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: Oil Filters


True Tedd...


Only problem is you go from oil change to oil change with this warm & fuzzy with oil analysis. My warm & fuzzy is because I took a pro-active approach and did something... An Oil Change.

A oil analysis is REACTIVE.



I would not say apples & oranges... More in the line of apples and applesauce.

It is all about WHEN you get the information.



Barry
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 7:58 am    Post subject: Oil Filters Reply with quote

On 21-Jan-11, at 5:05PM, FLYaDIVE wrote:

Quote:
Only problem is you go from oil change to oil change with this warm
& fuzzy with oil analysis. My warm & fuzzy is because I took a pro-
active approach and did something... An Oil Change.

I'm glad that an oil change gives you a warm and fuzzy feeling. But
an oil analysis gives you information. Information versus warm fuzzy
feeling -- that's apples and oranges.

But, if you don't want to know what's going on inside your engine
that's your prerogative, of course.

tedd


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 5:54 pm    Post subject: Oil Filters Reply with quote

“The primary task of the philosophy of religion is to discover those questions to which religion is the answer”


~ Rabbi Abraham Hashel

From: Richard Dudley <rhdudley1(at)bellsouth.net>
To: engines-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Fri, January 21, 2011 2:36:22 PM
Subject: Re: Engines-List: Re: Oil Filters

When confronted with facts or observations that disagree with one's religion or politics, speculate about missed observations or mistakes and by all means, attack.

End of wasted time and futile communication.

Regards,

Rich
======================================
On 1/21/2011 4:30 PM, FLYaDIVE wrote:
Quote:
Rich:

It has been a few years since I flew a 235.  But, don't they have oil fill necks and dip sticks?


Why did you have to WAIT till you received an oil analysis report to find out that you had a broken ring? SEE what happens when you put your FEELINGS ahead of common sense. And that is why most GA pilots get oil analysis done ... FEELINGS! It gives them a warm and fuzzy. So what does a oil fill neck and a dip stick have to do with it? Just LQQK at thew COLOR of the oil and that should tell you something! If it changes to dark/black in a short time you KNOW something is wrong. A broken ring will cause the oil to go dark/black in a very short time. But you were willing to wait till you got the oil analysis results before you or your partner just LQQK'd at the oil!


Do you have EGT & CHT probes on that plane? If so HIGH CHT will be SCREAMING - Something is wrong. OK, No CHT on the plane... Surely you have an Oil Temp Gage! That would also be increasing as the blow-by increases with a broken ring as as the the temps increase.


Compression Check - Next to useless. As someone just said ... How often do you do a compression check; once a year at annual? So just as waiting for Annual Time to fix a problem waiting for oil analysis results delays a prompt response.


So, once again one is expecting a warm fuzzy feeling - AFTER the fact. One is relying on analysis company NOT to make a mistake. Meanwhile people think they are doing something good for their engine. They are doing NOTHING for their engine, they are ONLY justifying their actions with Monday Morning Quarterbacking.
Also as I stated and explained with facts ... What are you really analyzing, oil that has had 71% of the oil replaced in a 50 hour period.


Think of it this way:
If you changed your oil at 30 hour intervals you would know and see the color of the oil.
So and quick change in color or smell would be much easily detected. And this is something that does not require a huge delay in time while operating your engine under adverse conditions.
AND MAYBE - If the oil was changed sooner you would have not had a ring failure. OK! I'm really stretching with that statement.


So don't go patting yourself on the back for having your oil analyzed OR for waiting to get a analysis report and making a phone call. OR for making the decision to fly back home with a bad ring. So as you say: "What more evidence would anyone need to become a believer???"


Barry
PS:
By the way - Flying back is another entire decision making process that could go under the folder of: "I learned from that".


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blue213



Joined: 26 Nov 2010
Posts: 5
Location: Indiana

PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 3:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Oil Filters Reply with quote

WoW! Shocked it would be a lot more interesting to read these forums if people would not quote, and re-quote the same comments! As for the guy that wants to be cheap, don't test your oil, don't worry about everyone else's right to test theirs if they want. Also your long drawn out rant is inaccurate. The guys doing the testing have enough sense to know how often the oil has been changed, and to allow for that. The sludge mostly stays at the bottom, and is not affected that much by an oil change. You need a hobby.

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