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KIS IT-1 Aerodynamics - Main wheel location

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hans-chr.erstad(at)c2i.ne
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 10:41 am Post subject: KIS IT-1 Aerodynamics - Main wheel location

Hello Mark



Your wrote: "Next time you fly please try this for me but be very careful

and let me know what happens!" 



I went flying today, and on takeoff I held the stick back just enough to

lift the nose wheel and take off. I held the stick in that position for a

while (2-3 seconds?).  The nose became too high and speed too low.  Just as

you predicted.



I have not really noticed this, but apparently I always reduce stick back

pressure when the airplane lifts off, to keep pich angle more or less

constant, and low enough for the speed to increase. 



Landing again, I can keep the nose wheel from comming down immediately after

landing, and can keep it raised for the first 50-100 meters or so.  With CG

at max fwd position, I need to be concentrated to manage this.  If I land at

a short runway, I let the nosewheel come down, in order to start braking.



Regards, Hans Christian



-----Opprinnelig melding-----

Fra: owner-kis-list-server(at)matronics.com

[mailto:owner-kis-list-server(at)matronics.com] På vegne av Mark Kettering

Sendt: 5. juli 2010 20:18

Til: kis-list(at)matronics.com

Emne: Re: SV: Re: KIS IT-1 Aerodynamics






Hello Hans,



 	  Quote: 	
		  I have flown my KIS 1 for 10 years now, and I agree with 'OC' comments 

about the handling with respect to difficulties making consistent 

landings and keeping the nose wheel up.


	


I have flown a TR1 with the main gear in the stock position and with that

aircraft I also had the same problems.  So I made some calculations and

found out that the stock main gear location was too far aft.  On my TR1 I

then moved it forward and fully eliminated not only this problem on my

aircraft but also the takeoff tendency to over rotate.  When flying with

Rich and watching the stick I noted that he had to pull way back to rotate

then quickly release this back force and movement to prevent over rotation

on lift off.



 	  Quote: 	
		  About the wing/fuselage fairing.  I have meet Julian several times at 

fly-in.  He told that the fairing modification made the landings with a 

low approach speed a lot easier. Why not believe his experience? I 

think he is the only one to make the modification, and having 

experiencd what difference it makes.  I have fairing modification on my 

to-do list. But I may never come to that item on my list, as I feel the 

landings are still OK, and I do not operate from runways shorter than 

800 meters. I usually keep a little power on in the flare.


	


Well, I am not a believer!  But that has little to do with Julian's

experiences.  More to do with science and engineering methods.  At some

point with more data I may agree that the elevator loses authority due to

wing fuselage junction separation. At this point I am waiting on seeing the

video for myself.  The one still picture I have seen does not seem to

support the conclusion that the wing fuselage junction is causing separation

of flow over the tail.  I also never have a sudden loss or any loss of

elevator authority with my aircraft at any time and I have the stock wing

root fairings so this data also does not seem to support that conclusion.



But this is not to say that Julian did not have this problem.  Maybe his

plane is slightly different than mine.  Maybe my more poor (or maybe better)

fit of my parts in this area prevented a problem that his plane had.  Who

knows?



But I do do know the stock main gear location is too far aft relative to the

CG (range) location.  I also know that angling the gear forward (moving the

gear contact point forward) reduces the hard nose let down at all CG

locations and cures the tendency to over rotate.



Next time you fly please try this for me but be very careful and let me know

what happens!  As you pull back to rotate just hold the stick in the same

location and fly off the runway.  This is how a good handling aircraft

should takeoff.  It should not need pilot input beyond a steady back

pressure.  You should not need to release or push forward.  The plane should

literally "fly itself" off the runway.  But if you do this in the TR1 with

the main gear in the stock location you will over rotate and need to move

the stick forward.  Or you will stall and maybe worse.



Also please keep in mind that the gear location is very easy to change.



Thanks,

Mark

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John Jackson

Joined: 27 Mar 2010
Posts: 14
Location: Shrewsbury, UK

Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 11:00 am Post subject: KIS IT-1 Aerodynamics - Main wheel location

Hello all

  

 I'm not sure if this is worth anything to the discussion but there's a video on youtube of my TR-1 landing on a short grass strip last weekend.

  

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZz2DuQXACo&feature=related  at 8minutes 48 seconds onwards.

  

 I hold the power at about 1200rpm until the very late, short flare.  The nose wheel could have been held off but I let it lower early to begin braking.  I then had to pick it up again to cross a small track that I'd not noticed until quite late in the landing.

  

 I was one-up with about 30ltrs of fuel and needed about 350m on the downslope to come to a halt.

  

 JJ



 

   From: Hans Christian Erstad <hans-chr.erstad(at)c2i.net>

To: kis-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Wednesday, 7 July, 2010 19:39:55

Subject: Re: KIS IT-1 Aerodynamics - Main wheel location



--> KIS-List message posted by: "Hans Christian Erstad" <hans-chr.erstad(at)c2i.net (hans-chr.erstad(at)c2i.net)>



Hello Mark



Your wrote: "Next time you fly please try this for me but be very careful

and let me know what happens!" 



I went flying today, and on takeoff I held the stick back just enough to

lift the nose wheel and take off. I held the stick in that position for a

while (2-3 seconds?).  The nose became too high and speed too low.  Just as

you  predicted.



I have not really noticed this, but apparently I always reduce stick back

pressure when the airplane lifts off, to keep pich angle more or less

constant, and low enough for the speed to increase. 



Landing again, I can keep the nose wheel from comming down immediately after

landing, and can keep it raised for the first 50-100 meters or so.  With CG

at max fwd position, I need to be concentrated to manage this.  If I land at

a short runway, I let the nosewheel come down, in order to start braking.



Regards, Hans Christian



-----Opprinnelig melding-----

Fra: owner-kis-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-kis-list-server(at)matronics.com)

[mailto:owner-kis-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-kis-list-server(at)matronics.com)] På vegne av Mark  Kettering

Sendt: 5. juli 2010 20:18

Til: kis-list(at)matronics.com (kis-list(at)matronics.com)

Emne: Re: SV: Re: KIS IT-1 Aerodynamics



--> KIS-List message posted by: Mark Kettering <mantafs(at)earthlink.net (mantafs(at)earthlink.net)>



Hello Hans,



 	  Quote: 	
		  I have flown my KIS 1 for 10 years now, and I agree with 'OC' comments 

about the handling with respect to difficulties making consistent 

landings and keeping the nose wheel up.


	


I have flown a TR1 with the main gear in the stock position and with that

aircraft I also had the same problems.  So I made some calculations and

found out that the stock main gear location was too far aft.  On my TR1 I

then moved it forward and fully eliminated not only this problem on my

aircraft but also the takeoff tendency to over  rotate.  When flying with

Rich and watching the stick I noted that he had to pull way back to rotate

then quickly release this back force and movement to prevent over rotation

on lift off.



 	  Quote: 	
		  About the wing/fuselage fairing.  I have meet Julian several times at 

fly-in.  He told that the fairing modification made the landings with a 

low approach speed a lot easier. Why not believe his experience? I 

think he is the only one to make the modification, and having 

experiencd what difference it makes.  I have fairing modification on my 

to-do list. But I may never come to that item on my list, as I feel the 

landings are still OK, and I do not operate from runways shorter than 

800 meters. I usually keep a little power on in the flare.


	


Well, I am not a believer!  But that has little to do with Julian's

experiences.  More to do with science and  engineering methods.  At some

point with more data I may agree that the elevator loses authority due to

wing fuselage junction separation. At this point I am waiting on seeing the

video for myself.  The one still picture I have seen does not seem to

support the conclusion that the wing fuselage junction is causing separation

of flow over the tail.  I also never have a sudden loss or any loss of

elevator authority with my aircraft at any time and I have the stock wing

root fairings so this data also does not seem to support that conclusion.



But this is not to say that Julian did not have this problem.  Maybe his

plane is slightly different than mine.  Maybe my more poor (or maybe better)

fit of my parts in this area prevented a problem that his plane had.  Who

knows?



But I do do know the stock main gear location is too far aft relative to the

CG (range) location.  I also  know that angling the gear forward (moving the

gear contact point forward) reduces the hard nose let down at all CG

locations and cures the tendency to over rotate.



Next time you fly please try this for me but be very careful and let me know

what happens!  As you pull back to rotate just hold the stick in the same

location and fly off the runway.  This is how a good handling aircraft

should takeoff.  It should not need pilot input beyond a steady back

pressure.  You should not need to release or push forward.  The plane should

literally "fly itself" off the runway.  But if you do this in the TR1 with

the main gear in the stock location you will over rotate and need to move

the stick forward.  Or you will stall and maybe worse.



Also please keep in mind that the gear location is very easy to www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.========================



 [quote][b]

- The Matronics KIS-List Email Forum -

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