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O-235 Plug Fouling?
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DwightFrye



Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 27
Location: Cary, NC

PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 10:49 am    Post subject: O-235 Plug Fouling? Reply with quote

Dj,

Excellent information. Thanks! Others have also suggested TCP so I'll
see if I can track some down.

-- Dwight

On Thu Apr 22 11:43:26 2010, Dj Merrill wrote :
Quote:
On 04/21/2010 05:29 PM, Dwight Frye wrote:

> Thanks for the input. The Decalin RunUp product looks interesting, but
> unfortunately they say right from the start :
>
> Decalin RunUp is not approved for use in the engines of
> certified aircraft ...
The certified "equivalent" is TCP Fuel Treatment, available from
Aircraft Spruce:
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/alcortcp.php

I used TCP in my Cessna 150 (O-200) to help address lead buildup
problems, and when I moved to a Glasair with an O-320, I switched to
Decalin RunUp. Both are good products, and both eliminated the lead
buildup problems that I saw in both engines while running 100LL.

Note that with TCP you'll need to buy a separate dispenser. The
Decalin RunUp has the dispenser built-in to the container.

-Dj

--
Dj Merrill - N1JOV
Glastar Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ - http://deej.net/sportsman/
Grumman Yankee Driver N9870L - http://deej.net/yankee/


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 12:20 pm    Post subject: O-235 Plug Fouling? Reply with quote

Oh, Dwight:

The shut down procedure offered by Jerb is available and a bit more
complete on Lycomming's web site.

The only issue I have with Lycomming's procedure is it is being done
at SHUT-DOWN and not prior to take-off. When you consider leaning and
if done properly during flight the % of Power and proper leaning
should burn off lead deposits. Also, their is a small issue of
running the engine and components under the hood HOT and then shutting
down. It is known as HEATSOAKING. And this is a controversial issue.
Me personally - Why do it.
I would suggest use the procedure prior ro take-off.

Barry
"Chop'd Liver"

On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 7:41 PM, jerb <ulflyer(at)verizon.net> wrote:
Quote:


Hi Dwight,
Owned a 73-7ECA with a O-235 for a number of years.
First I would not go leaning the engine during taxi - your future is looking
at scored cylinders and Big $$$$.
Your problem is not carbon but lead from the 100 low lead aviation fuel.
 (Never could figure out why they call it low lead.)

When you shut down,  push the RPM up some (1600), leave the throttle in that
position, then pull the mixture to the cut off position.  It will blow much
of the molten lead out of the engine exhaust.

You can also use ALCOR TCP fuel treatment if you can find it. We used that
in our fuel.  Do a search on Google and learn about it.  It's small $ but
when you consider wasting a cylinder to two, that's nothing.  If you use it,
you will see a difference.  Be careful pulling plugs as often as your are
(25-Hrs), use anti-seizure on the threads and use a calibrated torque wrench
to tighten them with so you don't pull threads or crack a cylinder.  I think
if your use the TCP and the shut down process as I described above you will
not need to pull the plugs every 25 hours.
jerb



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ulflyer(at)verizon.net
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 5:32 pm    Post subject: O-235 Plug Fouling? Reply with quote

Dwight,
I don't feel the mag's are the problem. There has been an
established issue with problem of the amount of lead in 100LL and
plug fouling. When you return from a flight after taxiing to the
parking area follow through with the shut method I suggested. Be
aware of what's behind you when you increase your RPM as a good
fellow pilot always do. I think doing this and using some TCP will
significantly reduce your plug fouling problem. Also when your
reinstalling the cowling do your have any problem reconnecting the
rubber boot between the carb and the air filter outlet. I may have a
cure for that also.
jerb

At 11:47 AM 4/22/2010, you wrote:
Quote:


I agree that something is wrong .. which is why I'm reaching out a
bit. Frankly, I suspect our mags are failing but we won't know for
sure until we swap them out in a month.

One thing we have NOT been doing is bringing the RPM up before we
shut down. I'm going to start doing that at a minimum because it
makes a LOT of sense.

-- Dwight


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DwightFrye



Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 27
Location: Cary, NC

PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 5:43 pm    Post subject: O-235 Plug Fouling? Reply with quote

Jerb,

Reinstalling the rubber boot is a total pain in the ass, but we
manage. What is your solution?

-- Dwight

On Thu Apr 22 21:25:49 2010, jerb wrote :
Quote:



Dwight,
I don't feel the mag's are the problem. There has been an
established issue with problem of the amount of lead in 100LL and
plug fouling. When you return from a flight after taxiing to the
parking area follow through with the shut method I suggested. Be
aware of what's behind you when you increase your RPM as a good
fellow pilot always do. I think doing this and using some TCP will
significantly reduce your plug fouling problem. Also when your
reinstalling the cowling do your have any problem reconnecting the
rubber boot between the carb and the air filter outlet. I may have a
cure for that also.
jerb

At 11:47 AM 4/22/2010, you wrote:
>
>
>I agree that something is wrong .. which is why I'm reaching out a
>bit. Frankly, I suspect our mags are failing but we won't know for
>sure until we swap them out in a month.
>
>One thing we have NOT been doing is bringing the RPM up before we
>shut down. I'm going to start doing that at a minimum because it
>makes a LOT of sense.
>
> -- Dwight


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 5:52 pm    Post subject: O-235 Plug Fouling? Reply with quote

Dwight,
The suggestion of leaning in flight as a solution to the lead fouling
needs to be done with care, you can waste cylinder(s) real easy if
your not paying attention. As to the comment below by Barry
regarding shutting down hot, your only briefly running up the engine
up at partial power, besides it's already cooling down from taxi in
to the ramp. Why would you do a shut down procedure before
takeoff? He obviously does not have enough practical experience with
the type, on the other hand I do. The shut down procedure is to get
molten lead to blow out of the engine exhaust go it doesn't build up
and collect in the lower spark plugs upon shutting the engine down.
jerb

At 01:18 PM 4/22/2010, you wrote:
Quote:


Oh, Dwight:

The shut down procedure offered by Jerb is available and a bit more
complete on Lycomming's web site.

The only issue I have with Lycomming's procedure is it is being done
at SHUT-DOWN and not prior to take-off. When you consider leaning and
if done properly during flight the % of Power and proper leaning
should burn off lead deposits. Also, their is a small issue of
running the engine and components under the hood HOT and then shutting
down. It is known as HEATSOAKING. And this is a controversial issue.
Me personally - Why do it.
I would suggest use the procedure prior ro take-off.

Barry
"Chop'd Liver"

On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 7:41 PM, jerb <ulflyer(at)verizon.net> wrote:
>
>
> Hi Dwight,
> Owned a 73-7ECA with a O-235 for a number of years.
> First I would not go leaning the engine during taxi - your future
is looking
> at scored cylinders and Big $$$$.
> Your problem is not carbon but lead from the 100 low lead aviation fuel.
> (Never could figure out why they call it low lead.)
>
> When you shut down, push the RPM up some (1600), leave the
throttle in that
> position, then pull the mixture to the cut off position. It will blow much
> of the molten lead out of the engine exhaust.
>
> You can also use ALCOR TCP fuel treatment if you can find it. We used that
> in our fuel. Do a search on Google and learn about it. It's small $ but
> when you consider wasting a cylinder to two, that's nothing. If
you use it,
> you will see a difference. Be careful pulling plugs as often as your are
> (25-Hrs), use anti-seizure on the threads and use a calibrated
torque wrench
> to tighten them with so you don't pull threads or crack a
cylinder. I think
> if your use the TCP and the shut down process as I described above you will
> not need to pull the plugs every 25 hours.
> jerb
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


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matrix02(at)shaw.ca
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 6:34 pm    Post subject: O-235 Plug Fouling? Reply with quote

You are running your engine too slow. Open the throttle and leave it wide open at a minimum of 2450 rpm. This is a common problem with small Lycomings, they have to work, I have seen it several time.

Jim

Jim Aitken, P. Eng
Matrix Engineering Services
109 Westchester Drive
Winnipeg, Manitoba
R3P 2G2 Canada

Tel: 204-801-8014
email: matrix02(at)shaw.ca (matrix02(at)shaw.ca)



From: owner-engines-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-engines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of scott bilinski
Sent: April 21, 2010 10:28 AM
To: engines-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: O-235 Plug Fouling?


Here you go.......

http://www.decalinchemicals.com/fueladditive.html


Scott
RV-8a





From: Dwight Frye <dwight(at)openweave.org>
To: engines-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Wed, April 21, 2010 7:23:53 AM
Subject: O-235 Plug Fouling?

--> Engines-List message posted by: Dwight Frye <dwight(at)openweave.org (dwight(at)openweave.org)>

I need some advice. This is an O-235 in an 1967 Citabria 7ECA, and
we (my partners and I) have owned for about three years. Since we
have an oil screen, and not a filter, we do an oil change every
25 hours. At that time we also clean the plugs, and do a bunch of
other random maintainence (check the battery, air in the tires,
etc.).

In the first few years of ownership we would find lead in the plugs
and would clean it out at every oil change. But we never had it so
bad that a plug fouled out _completely_. They were just "dirty". In
the last year we have had a continually growing problem with the
plugs not just getting dirty, but fouling out to the point of not
firing. The last time this happened three of the four bottom plugs
were _packed_ with lead deposits. It was bad enough that I thought
I might have simply lost a mag, but it was (in the end) just the
nasty state of the plugs.

One other piece of information is the age of our mags. We have Slick
mags, and they are getting close to the 800 hour mark. This is where
our A&P recommends they be replaced. Given that the mags are aging
I have _wondered_ if it is possible that they are gradually going
downhill and might be contributing to our fouling problem. Is that
possible? If not ..... does anyone have any insights as to why we
are having so much trouble?

At this point we can't make it 25 hours without plugs fouling OUT on
us. We do lean agressively when we taxi, and (of course) lean in
flight. For taxi I lean to the ragged edge where if I were to apply
full power the engine would sag badly, so I know it is pretty darn
lean for ground ops.

As a note, the plane goes in for annual in a month, and we are already
intending to replace mags/harness/plugs as a matter of course. But I
hate to keep battling continually fouling plugs for even another month
if I can avoid it. Opinions? Suggestions? Insights?







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Kelly McMullen



Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 1136
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 7:08 pm    Post subject: O-235 Plug Fouling? Reply with quote

Lets see, you are against leaning on taxiing, and in flight, but you
think running significant power to get the cylinders unevenly hot with
no air movement before cutting the power is good. No wonder you see
scored cylinders. Leaning IS the key to preventing lead and carbon
fouling.

On Thu, Apr 22, 2010 at 8:34 AM, jerb <ulflyer(at)verizon.net> wrote:
Quote:


Dwight,
If your seeing that much of a lead problem in 5 hours, there is some thing
wrong.  I read some of your comments  and we never taxied with mixture
leaned out.  I starting to wonder if what your doing is inducing more
problems than it is solving.  One thing that does help clear out the lead is
on shut down leave your mixture in rich position, bring up the RPM
1500-1600, and pull the mixture.  It will help.  Other than that try some
TCP additive.  It does help.
jerb
At 07:05 AM 4/22/2010, you wrote:
>
>
>
> Barry,
>
> This is exactly what we do ... every time. In fact, at times I even
> have to richen a little just to _taxi_, since it is so lean that it
> becomes fuel-starved even with a slight application of throttle.
>
> Thanks for all the suggestions, folks. I'll be seeing the condition
> of the plugs here tonight. Bear in mind, our A&P cleaned the bottom
> ones just a two -weeks- ago. We probably don't have 5 hours on the
> plane since then. Tonight I'm pulling 'em all.
>
>  -- Dwight
>
> On Thu Apr 22 09:33:10 2010, FLYaDIVE wrote :
> >Hello Dwight and Jerb:
> >
> >LEANING WHILE TAXING IS A VERY GOOD THING.
> >
> >You should lean so much that the engine almost dies.  You will NEVER
> >score the cylinders due to leaning. The reason being is your percent
> >(%) of power is so extremely low - About 20 to 30% that there is
> >minimal heat produces and almost NO load on the engine.
> >
> >NOW!  The thing is to LEAN very aggressively so much so that if you
> >forgot to push the throttle in for take off - The engine would die of
> >fuel starvation second after being applied.
> >
> >Barry
> >"Chop'd Liver"
>



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