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(Almost) perfect airplane battery
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william.p.dube(at)noaa.go
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 11:09 am    Post subject: (Almost) perfect airplane battery Reply with quote

I am considering producing state-of-the art, very lightweight, ultra
long life, starting batteries for experimental aircraft. They won't be
cheap to make, however. I'd like to get some feedback as to the market
for these before I put a big effort into this.

Here are the specs:

14 volts
480 cranking amps
8.8 amp-hours
2.7 pounds (Yes, that is right.)
10 year warranty (prorated)
Completely sealed battery
As safe as lead acid or NiCad (Yes, they really are as safe. That is why
they are so expensive.)
Built-in electronic monitoring system warns of over-voltage,
under-voltage, over heating, or internal battery fault.

That is all the good news. The downside is that they will cost about
$475. I'm not sure how many folks would want a 10 year battery (at
least) that weighs about 1/3 as much as an "ordinary" battery, but costs
four times as much.

The specs above are real. I have personally tested these batteries
and they do, indeed, perform this well, so that is not an issue. I'm
going to make one for myself. The question is, will folks buy them if I
produce them?

Let me know if you think you would be interested in such a high-tech
battery at this cost. Again, just forget everything you know about
batteries and assume the specs I've given are correct.

Thanks in advance,

Bill Dube'

PS

These batteries are the ones I'm putting in my bike at the moment.
http://www.killacycle.com

With this sort of hobby, I always have my finger on the pulse of
battery technology. These particular batteries are not only perfect for
my drag bike, they happen to be perfect for an airplane because they are
so safe (but they are expensive.)


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frank.hinde(at)hp.com
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 11:32 am    Post subject: (Almost) perfect airplane battery Reply with quote

At $300 I would get interested, but the 10 year life would have to be
proven for me to slap down this kind of cash.

Frank

Do not archive

--


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harley(at)AgelessWings.co
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 11:57 am    Post subject: (Almost) perfect airplane battery Reply with quote

Here's the web site for the battery manufacturer...in Singapore..

www.boldertmf.com

The FAQ page is interesting...seems like there are quite a few charging
and storage conditions.

Harley

Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis) wrote:

[quote]

At $300 I would get interested, but the 10 year life would have to be
proven for me to slap down this kind of cash.

Frank

Do not archive

--


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brian



Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 643
Location: Sacramento, California, USA

PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 12:01 pm    Post subject: (Almost) perfect airplane battery Reply with quote

Bill Dube wrote:
Quote:


I am considering producing state-of-the art, very lightweight, ultra
long life, starting batteries for experimental aircraft. They won't be
cheap to make, however. I'd like to get some feedback as to the market
for these before I put a big effort into this.

Very cool. Still lead-acid? I couldn't really tell from your web site.

But, no, I probably wouldn't spend $475 on a battery.

--
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)

I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery


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N1DeltaWhiskey(at)comcast
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 12:07 pm    Post subject: (Almost) perfect airplane battery Reply with quote

Bill,

My first thought was no way would I put $950 into a dual battery system,
weight advantages or no.

But when I start to consider that over a 10 year period, I will have spent
that amount (not considering present value issues) to annually replace one
of my batteries (double the amp hours, triple the cranking amps, almost 6
times the weight), it becomes a little more intriguing.

I am sure others will have several other, and perhaps more meaningful
questions, but here are mine:

What is the residual voltage at the stated cranking output?

What is the residual voltage for the quoted amp-hours?

What would be the consequences of increasing the amp-hour rating about
double? For a battery dependant airplane, amp-hours is like fuel in the
tank.

What is your 10 yr life span based on? Is that the life span if only used
for starting? For me to consider these, they would have to be more than
just a starting battery; they need to be capable of keeping me going after
the engine has started. What would be the lifespan if used as I would need
them to be used?

Also, guarantees are only as good as the organization behind them; after
undergoing some unplanned experiences with "experimental" engines, I would
be skeptical there.

Regards, Doug

---


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MWilli7119(at)aol.com
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 12:17 pm    Post subject: (Almost) perfect airplane battery Reply with quote

of course if the battery is indeed the one that someone sent me a link to
the FAQ's say that it can only be charged by its charging system.. how much does
that weigh and can it be charged by alternator?


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william.p.dube(at)noaa.go
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 12:18 pm    Post subject: (Almost) perfect airplane battery Reply with quote

Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis) wrote:

Quote:


At $300 I would get interested, but the 10 year life would have to be
proven for me to slap down this kind of cash.


It would take ten years to prove it. Smile


I figured the warranty would be the equivalent of proof. You would
be refunded any portion of the battery life you did not receive.

Maybe a warranty doesn't matter to folks.

Bill Dube'

[quote]Frank

Do not archive

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william.p.dube(at)noaa.go
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 12:25 pm    Post subject: (Almost) perfect airplane battery Reply with quote

Nope. Wrong battery. Not Bolder TMF. That is what I used to run in the bike.

No hope for a ten-year life. More like a year. Maybe less.

An 8.8 amp-hr 12 volt battery made from Bolder TMF cells would weigh
about 11 pounds. It would have 8,000 cranking amps, however.

A 1,000 cranking amp Bolder TMF 12 volt battery would weigh about
1.5 pounds, but would have less than 2 amp-hrs of capacity.

Bill Dube'

Harley wrote:

[quote]

Here's the web site for the battery manufacturer...in Singapore..

www.boldertmf.com

The FAQ page is interesting...seems like there are quite a few charging
and storage conditions.

Harley

Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis) wrote:



>
>
>At $300 I would get interested, but the 10 year life would have to be
>proven for me to slap down this kind of cash.
>
>Frank
>
>Do not archive
>
>--


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william.p.dube(at)noaa.go
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 12:52 pm    Post subject: (Almost) perfect airplane battery Reply with quote

Ordinary charging system. 14.4 volts max.

You've never heard of these unless you are in the battery industry.

Bill Dube'

MWilli7119(at)aol.com wrote:

Quote:


of course if the battery is indeed the one that someone sent me a link to
the FAQ's say that it can only be charged by its charging system.. how much does
that weigh and can it be charged by alternator?










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william.p.dube(at)noaa.go
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 12:52 pm    Post subject: (Almost) perfect airplane battery Reply with quote

At room temperature the voltage will sag to about 8 volts at the full
cranking current. Warmer is better. Colder is worse. The difference is
not huge.

The voltage during discharge is quite stable, as is the internal
resistance.

The cost will scale directly with amp-hrs as will the cranking amps.

The cycle life is about 10 times that of lead-acid.

It sounds like most folks don't put much value on a long warranty from a
small (ie "garage") company. I'll probably not bother to do such a long
warranty because it doesn't add to the marketability and adds
significantly to my headaches when folks abuse the product.

Bill Dube'

Doug Windhorn wrote:

[quote]

Bill,

My first thought was no way would I put $950 into a dual battery system,
weight advantages or no.

But when I start to consider that over a 10 year period, I will have spent
that amount (not considering present value issues) to annually replace one
of my batteries (double the amp hours, triple the cranking amps, almost 6
times the weight), it becomes a little more intriguing.

I am sure others will have several other, and perhaps more meaningful
questions, but here are mine:

What is the residual voltage at the stated cranking output?

What is the residual voltage for the quoted amp-hours?

What would be the consequences of increasing the amp-hour rating about
double? For a battery dependant airplane, amp-hours is like fuel in the
tank.

What is your 10 yr life span based on? Is that the life span if only used
for starting? For me to consider these, they would have to be more than
just a starting battery; they need to be capable of keeping me going after
the engine has started. What would be the lifespan if used as I would need
them to be used?

Also, guarantees are only as good as the organization behind them; after
undergoing some unplanned experiences with "experimental" engines, I would
be skeptical there.

Regards, Doug

---


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klehman(at)albedo.net
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 1:28 pm    Post subject: (Almost) perfect airplane battery Reply with quote

Bill
In some respects these fit my requirements as I'm using two 9 AH
batteries at about $100. ea now. They are about 8 lbs each and I don't
need much reserve capacity with two alternators. However I'm expecting
several years service from these and would not spend that much
additional money for the weight savings and additional performance. Also
I've learned that if something is really that good it will usually be
put into volume production and become dramatically cheaper Wink I agree
that a long warranty doesn't mean much to me as even good size companies
restructure pretty quickly if they have a serious warranty issue these days.
Ken

Bill Dube wrote:

Quote:


I am considering producing state-of-the art, very lightweight, ultra
long life, starting batteries for experimental aircraft. They won't be
cheap to make, however. I'd like to get some feedback as to the market
for these before I put a big effort into this.




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lhelming(at)sigecom.net
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 3:14 pm    Post subject: (Almost) perfect airplane battery Reply with quote

Why would I want to buy one? It only produces about 1/2 the amps my Odyseey
680 produces. I have my e-buss setup for a 17 amp battery. I would need
two to have the same endurance. Also, you do not say what the physical size
would be. So what will that be? And how may charges and discharges can it
handle? Will it require anything more than what we have now in our planes
regarding regulators and overvoltage protection? Would an ordinary battery
charger work with it? More info is needed before I would trade in my $85
680 with a known performance record for an unknown costing 5-6 times more.
Larry in Indiana do not archive

---


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nuckollsr(at)cox.net
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 3:14 pm    Post subject: (Almost) perfect airplane battery Reply with quote

At 12:57 PM 4/10/2006 -0600, you wrote:

Quote:


I am considering producing state-of-the art, very lightweight, ultra
long life, starting batteries for experimental aircraft. They won't be
cheap to make, however. I'd like to get some feedback as to the market
for these before I put a big effort into this.

Here are the specs:

14 volts
480 cranking amps
8.8 amp-hours
2.7 pounds (Yes, that is right.)
10 year warranty (prorated)
Completely sealed battery
As safe as lead acid or NiCad (Yes, they really are as safe. That is why
they are so expensive.)
Built-in electronic monitoring system warns of over-voltage,
under-voltage, over heating, or internal battery fault.

That is all the good news. The downside is that they will cost about
$475. I'm not sure how many folks would want a 10 year battery (at
least) that weighs about 1/3 as much as an "ordinary" battery, but costs
four times as much.

The specs above are real. I have personally tested these batteries
and they do, indeed, perform this well, so that is not an issue. I'm
going to make one for myself. The question is, will folks buy them if I
produce them?

Let me know if you think you would be interested in such a high-tech
battery at this cost. Again, just forget everything you know about
batteries and assume the specs I've given are correct.

If my e-bus loads say I want to carry an 18 a.h. battery then your
proposed weight is 5.4# and indeed about 1/3rd that of a run-of-the
mill SVLA battery. So the question does become a matter of spending
about 12x as much to save on 10# of weight over a period of 10 years.

Will your proposed electronics keep track of and annunicate
the battery's present capacity? I've suggested that 'premium'
batteries may have a less than stellar return on investment
if the owner/operator has to purchase and periodically use
test equipment to track the battery's condition for the purpose
of changing it out when capacity falls below operator selected
minimums.

Suggest you start with customers who fly revenue generating aircraft.
If you can deliver 3 a.h. per pound of battery at 12v then it works
out to 1.5 a.h. per pound on a 24 volt battery. Weight savings on
and existing 25 a.h., 24-volt design at 56 pounds could be on the
order of 20 pounds. When the airplane carries two such batteries
at 112 pounds and replaces them about every 18 months for several
thousands of dollars each . . . THERE's a market. Come out to
RAC and I'll get you an audience with powers that be on future
product improvements. I've seen them light up like the Grinch
under an Xmas tree if they thought they could save as little as
three pounds per on a 56# battery.

Bob . . .


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jm(at)10squaredcorp.com
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 3:58 pm    Post subject: (Almost) perfect airplane battery Reply with quote

There might be serious interest by those interested in lightening bush
planes such as the Husky. Aviat has been working with some folks on a
light Husky. Could be an opportunity to get it certified.

On Monday 10 April 2006 23:08, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:

Quote:
Suggest you start with customers who fly revenue generating
aircraft. If you can deliver 3 a.h. per pound of battery at 12v
then it works out to 1.5 a.h. per pound on a 24 volt battery.
Weight savings on and existing 25 a.h., 24-volt design at 56 pounds
could be on the order of 20 pounds. When the airplane carries two
such batteries at 112 pounds and replaces them about every 18
months for several thousands of dollars each . . . THERE's a
market. Come out to RAC and I'll get you an audience with powers
that be on future product improvements. I've seen them light up
like the Grinch under an Xmas tree if they thought they could save
as little as three pounds per on a 56# battery.


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william.p.dube(at)noaa.go
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 4:28 pm    Post subject: (Almost) perfect airplane battery Reply with quote

Because the voltage is so steady, as is the impedance, you can only
easily sense when you are near full or near empty. Like 10% on either
end, perhaps a bit more. This is what the standard electronics will
annunciate. If folks want more, I can do it, but it would add to the cost.

Thanks for the offer to help show off this battery. I'll take you up
on it. It is very kind of you.

It looks like there is enough interest to build a prototype. I'll
probably build it late this summer.

You could check the capacity pretty easily during the annual by
applying a steady load while watching for the warning light.

You would be wise to have some sort of warning horn that tells you
that you have left the master on when you open the door. Kind of like
you have in your car. Running any battery flat can damage it. This could
be an expensive mistake with a battery like this one.

>>>>How I check battery capacity<<<

This works for any type battery. My favorite load is a 300 Watt
inverter, an electric clock with hands, (or mechanical digits,) and a
flood light. Charge up the battery until full. Set the clock to
midnight. Plug it into the inverter. Plug the floodlight into the
inverter. Connect the inverter to the battery. When the inverter senses
the battery voltage has gone below ~ 11 volts, it will shut off. (This
keeps you from damaging the battery if you forget to check on it during
the capacity test.) You then know how long the battery held the constant
wattage load of the floodlight. Do a little math and you have the
battery capacity. Works like a champ.

Bill Dube'


Quote:

If my e-bus loads say I want to carry an 18 a.h. battery then your
proposed weight is 5.4# and indeed about 1/3rd that of a run-of-the
mill SVLA battery. So the question does become a matter of spending
about 12x as much to save on 10# of weight over a period of 10 years.

Will your proposed electronics keep track of and annunicate
the battery's present capacity? I've suggested that 'premium'
batteries may have a less than stellar return on investment
if the owner/operator has to purchase and periodically use
test equipment to track the battery's condition for the purpose
of changing it out when capacity falls below operator selected
minimums.

Suggest you start with customers who fly revenue generating aircraft.
If you can deliver 3 a.h. per pound of battery at 12v then it works
out to 1.5 a.h. per pound on a 24 volt battery. Weight savings on
and existing 25 a.h., 24-volt design at 56 pounds could be on the
order of 20 pounds. When the airplane carries two such batteries
at 112 pounds and replaces them about every 18 months for several
thousands of dollars each . . . THERE's a market. Come out to
RAC and I'll get you an audience with powers that be on future
product improvements. I've seen them light up like the Grinch
under an Xmas tree if they thought they could save as little as
three pounds per on a 56# battery.

Bob . . .










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Eric M. Jones



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 565
Location: Massachusetts

PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 6:05 am    Post subject: Re: (Almost) perfect airplane battery Reply with quote

Bill,

I absolutely know you have an eye on battery technology. I have also watched this but have decided that it would be a real money-loser to get into the battery market, for the simple reason that some very few months after perfecting (and even selling a few) miracle batteries; the guys who are tooling up to make them by the millions will eat your lunch.

There is simply no way to make a dollar on the deal. And if you sell a few, your customers will regret it in about a year, when cheap fuel cells, new battery technologies and ingenious new devices conspire.

That's my prediction for what it's worth. Otherwise, good luck.


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brian



Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 643
Location: Sacramento, California, USA

PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 7:39 am    Post subject: (Almost) perfect airplane battery Reply with quote

Eric M. Jones wrote:

Quote:
There is simply no way to make a dollar on the deal.

Ah, the ubiquitous nay-sayer. Now my experience is that, if you identify
a need, fill it well, and then do a good job of getting it in front of
the right customer, you will succeed.

Quote:
And if you sell a few, your customers will regret it in about a year, when cheap fuel cells, new battery technologies and ingenious new devices conspire.

I guess that is why we are still starting our airplanes with a battery
that was designed in the late 1800's. Lead-acid batteries seem to be
pretty well ensconced in the world. I don't imagine them being
completely displaced in 5-10 years.

And I do think that Bill has quite a good feel for what technologies are
available and what is in the pipeline. I bet he can see what might
displace his proposed battery.

The fact that you don't know that fuel-cells do not have the power
density (as opposed to energy density where they are superior) needed to
start an airplane indicates that your grasp of battery technology might
not be as broad as Bill's.

Quote:
That's my prediction for what it's worth. Otherwise, good luck.

Thank you. It was worth at least 300% of what I paid for it. Hard to
find bargains like that these days.

--
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)

I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery


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brian-yak at lloyd dot com
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I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
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martorious(at)earthlink.n
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 9:53 am    Post subject: (Almost) perfect airplane battery Reply with quote

Actually, I think what Eric was trying to say is that unless Bill has the
wherewithal to go into a mass production situation when demand picks up,
that some wall street type is going to pull the market out from under him
after Bill does all the legwork and proves that a market exists. It's all
about leverage and capital. Not to say that a garage based business can't
make it, Apple computer was started in a garage, but then the Apple founder
had full control on the technology, and the impression I'm getting is that
Bill does not own a patent on this particular technology, so he is
vulnerable to larger corporations moving in on the market.

Just my $.02
Marty Puckett

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Eric M. Jones



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 565
Location: Massachusetts

PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 11:20 am    Post subject: Re: (Almost) perfect airplane battery Reply with quote

Dear Brian,

Cheer up.

Nay, nay, nay; I am NOT a Nay-Sayer. but see:

http://www.ultralifebatteries.com/documents/techspecs/UBI-5108_UBI-2590_spec.pdf ........3.4 pounds but $425. Way cool. It will be in Walmart in six months for your electric scooter.

I really think independently trying to get into the battery business is a way to make a small fortune (you know the rest of the quote).


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brian



Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 643
Location: Sacramento, California, USA

PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 12:00 pm    Post subject: (Almost) perfect airplane battery Reply with quote

Eric M. Jones wrote:
Quote:


Dear Brian,

Cheer up.

I am very cheerful. I am even smiling as I write this. Smile

Quote:
Nay, nay, nay; I am NOT a Nay-Sayer. but see:

http://www.ultralifebatteries.com/documents/techspecs/UBI-5108_UBI-2590_spec.pdf ........3.4 pounds but $425. Way cool. It will be in Walmart in six months for your electric scooter.

It is for the military. That means when it hits Wall-Mart it will cost $40.

Quote:
I really think independently trying to get into the battery business is a way to make a small fortune (you know the rest of the quote).

Possibly. But that is his watch. I have seen several people make
fortunes offering goods and service that I could not imagine a market
for. That is how innovation happens.

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Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)

I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery


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I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
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