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ACM Possible Issues

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richard.goode(at)russiana
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 5:13 am Post subject: ACM Possible Issues

Gus, the SP-91 is a strong  aeroplane, but 60G - absolutely no way!

  

 I know the two designers well  (Slava Kondratiev and Sergey Esayan), and I can't believe either would have made  that claim.

  

 I would suspect that serious  deformation would occur before 15G.  However more than enough for most  people.

  

 Sukhoi wings (carbon of  course) are operational to 12G, with a 1.75 factor = 21G.  Six wings have  been broken and the lowest figure one broke at was 25G.  (Of course the  Massagee Su-31 wing was a production fault, but even then failed at  12.4G).

  

 It is also worth saying that  Sukhoi put all the wings that they subsequently broke through a 50,000 cycle of  +10G and -10G, including torsional twisting.  I saw this in a rig the size  of a small size house, and it was most impressive!

  

 Richard  Goode

 

Richard Goode Aerobatics

Rhodds  Farm

Lyonshall

Herefordshire

HR5 3LW

United Kingdom

  

 Tel:    +44 (0) 1544 340120

Mob:  +44  (0) 7768 610389

Fax:   +44 (0) 1544 340129

www.russianaeros.com

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gus.fraser(at)gs.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 6:00 am Post subject: ACM Possible Issues

Sergey Esayan was the source for this I will ask him  for the test data, lets see what he sends me. But basically the point of my post  was that the Russian, better than anyone else period, actually test the aircraft  that they sell. 

  

 Last summer I was looking around at alternative aerobatic  types, and I have to say that I did (shame on me) consider the flat six variety  as well). There are composite aircraft out there that claim ridiculous G  loadings. BUT, when you ask to see the testing that was done to determine these  figures the answer is always, oh we did not test the wing that is just a  calculation. Well the fact of the matter is this, you may very well be able to  determine with a great deal of accuracy that a wing may fail at a given load. I  am not a structural engineer I don't know one end of a stress calculation from  another. I do however understand big rigs and sand bags. I have a physics back  ground and I always have problems with those theoretical guys, give me a  particle accelerator any day of the week. 

  

 To fly an aircraft to these levels of performance  you need to have 100% trust in the airframe otherwise you would never leave  the ground. I really have difficulty in just "taking someone else's word" that  things are going to be fine.

  

 I think that there is a market for the Russians making  these test facilities available to US manufactures, especially the experimental  crowd, to test provided samples to the standard Russian criteria. If they did  that I would take the limit claims more seriously. These results would be  respected, especially by the aerobatics community, I mean who would doubt the  strength of a Sukhoi ?

  

 Gus



  	  Quote: 	
		           From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com    [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard    Goode

Sent: Friday, March 24, 2006 8:13 AM

To: YAK USA    LIST

Subject: ACM Possible Issues

   

   Gus, the SP-91 is a strong    aeroplane, but 60G - absolutely no way!

    

   I know the two designers    well (Slava Kondratiev and Sergey Esayan), and I can't believe either would    have made that claim.

    

   I would suspect that serious    deformation would occur before 15G.  However more than enough for most    people.

    

   Sukhoi wings (carbon of    course) are operational to 12G, with a 1.75 factor = 21G.  Six wings have    been broken and the lowest figure one broke at was 25G.  (Of course the    Massagee Su-31 wing was a production fault, but even then failed at    12.4G).

    

   It is also worth saying that    Sukhoi put all the wings that they subsequently broke through a 50,000 cycle    of +10G and -10G, including torsional twisting.  I saw this in a rig the    size of a small size house, and it was most impressive!

    

   Richard    Goode

   

Richard Goode Aerobatics

Rhodds    Farm

Lyonshall

Herefordshire

HR5 3LW

United Kingdom

    

   Tel:    +44 (0) 1544 340120

Mob:     +44 (0) 7768 610389

Fax:   +44 (0) 1544 340129

www.russianaeros.com



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aerobaticgirl(at)yahoo.co
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 01, 2006 1:28 pm Post subject: ACM possible issues

I am with you Brian, that is why I said what I said, seems to be so many people placing so many rules on these issues when the basic foundation of knowing where you are supposed to be when is the really important thing. I hear ya on doing whatever you want to in your own a/c but in formation...you can come over and swap paint with me anytime you feel like it, ya know what I mean?

   

  I just felt like putting in my two cents to focus on what is important that is all.  Sorry.  I am just really safety conscience and at times on this list it seems that there is an occasional lackadaisical attitude toward activities that are inherently dangerous and it has worried me.

   

  Smash

  



Brian Lloyd <brian-yak(at)lloyd.com> wrote:

   	  Quote: 	
		  --> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd  



Sarah Tobin wrote:



I am replying to this because it was in reply to a message I sent. OTOH, 

I am not sure you were specifically addressing this to me.



 	  Quote: 	
		   Point to be had is: take a reality check and know your limitations. 

 Pre-brief all form flights, even if they have been done a million 

 times. Pretend there is a nebie in the group all the time and if not, 

 laugh about the good times later after a brewskie.


	


Seems reasonable to me. Anything we can do to *help* others to fly 

safely seems to me to be a good thing.



I think I have said this before but most people still seem to read me 

wrong. I think people should be able to do what the way to do in their 

own airplane. That includes acro, ACM, form, ground attack, spot 

landings, wearing flowered tropical shirts, or whatever floats your 

boat. I think that other people should then leave them alone. As long as 

it doesn't  cause risk to those around you then, what the hey, knock 

yourself out!



What I just don't understand is why this attitude gives heartburn to so 

many people on this list? Is this an ex-military thing that somehow I am 

against you if I'm not with you or what? I agree, my approach to a lot 

of what we take for granted is unorthodox. I like to think that it is 

because I think about it and then go try it out to see. (Kind of like 

the crosswind landing thing with flaps in a CJ6A -- unorthodox but it 

works.)



So I would really like to understand how this works before I give up.



-- 

Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way



	




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brian

Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 643
Location: Sacramento, California, USA

Posted: Sat Apr 01, 2006 3:44 pm Post subject: ACM possible issues

Sarah Tobin wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   I am with you Brian, that is why I said what I said, seems to be so many 

 people placing so many rules on these issues when the basic foundation 

 of knowing where you are supposed to be when is the really important 

 thing. I hear ya on doing whatever you want to in your own a/c but in 

 formation...you can come over and swap paint with me anytime you feel 

 like it, ya know what I mean?


	


Yeah? Works for me -- all except for the swapping paint part.  I 

believe that it is a mortal sin to hurt an airplane. God created man so 

there would be airplanes. It is our duty to love them and care for them.



 	  Quote: 	
		   I just felt like putting in my two cents to focus on what is important 

 that is all.  Sorry.  I am just really safety conscience and at times on 

 this list it seems that there is an occasional lackadaisical attitude 

 toward activities that are inherently dangerous and it has worried me.


	


And I agree with you 100%. Every individual's goal should be to Do No 

Harm. I know we want to make sure no one does harm to themselves but I 

just don't see how you can force it. Sure, in a military organization 

you can enforce it through the chain of command but we aren't military. 

The best I see us doing is to Do It Right and be inviting and inclusive 

so that the noobs will want to Do It Right too. I just don't see how 

anyone can "enforce" anything.



Well, whatever.



Y'all be careful out there, y'hear?



-- 

Brian Lloyd                         361 Catterline Way

brian-yak at lloyd dot com          Folsom, CA 95630

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

- Antoine de Saint-Exupery

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_________________
Brian Lloyd
brian-yak at lloyd dot com
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)

I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery

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