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New Rudder Question

 
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LHusky



Joined: 19 Jun 2008
Posts: 86
Location: Madras, Oregon

PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 1:00 pm    Post subject: New Rudder Question Reply with quote

My Rudder is damaged and I had planned to replace it now that the fuse assembly is nearly done. Has anyone talked with ZAC on weather the new style rudder will fit the XL for sure? I work graveyards and when I get home from work, ZAC is not open yet and when I get up, they are usually gone. 2 hour difference from west coast.

I was at Arlington this year and Dragonfly Aviation had their brand new AMD 601XL there. He said it had just a few hours on it. One of the first things I noticed was the rudder looked different. It had a trailing edge piece on it and was very contoured on the top. It was a good looking rudder. I took pictures of everything in hopes of duplicating it.  Then here comes the 650 with the same rudder. So now that I need a new rudder, I would like to build the new rudder if it will work. I just read the article that someone just posted and it gives me hope.

Larry Husky
Madras, Oregon



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DaveG601XL



Joined: 27 Oct 2006
Posts: 351
Location: Cincinnati, Oh

PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 3:05 am    Post subject: Re: New Rudder Question Reply with quote

I talked the Sebastian at Oshkosh and he said that the new rudder would fit a 601 fuselage by using new brackets. I could tell visually that the upper bracket was longer to account for the raked back angle of the new rudder. I could not get a good look at the lower bracket to see how much it was different.

Good luck,


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 7:01 am    Post subject: New Rudder Question Reply with quote

Does anyone have any info as to whether the new rudder improves the flight characteristics of the airplane or just the looks?

Bill PaganEAA Tech Counselor #4395
--- On Tue, 8/5/08, DaveG601XL <david.m.gallagher(at)ge.com> wrote:
[quote]From: DaveG601XL <david.m.gallagher(at)ge.com>
Subject: Re: New Rudder Question
To: zenith601-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Tuesday, August 5, 2008, 7:05 AM

[quote]--> Zenith601-List message posted by: "DaveG601XL"
<david.m.gallagher(at)ge.com>

I talked the Sebastian at Oshkosh and he said that the new rudder would fit a
601 fuselage by using new brackets. I could tell visually that the upper
bracket was longer to account for the raked back angle of the new rudder. I
could not get a good look at the lower bracket to see how much it was different.


Good luck,

--------
David Gallagher
601 XL, first flight 7/24/08.
In Phase I flight test.


Read this topic online [quote][b]


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jmaynard



Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 394
Location: Fairmont, MN (FRM)

PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 7:17 am    Post subject: New Rudder Question Reply with quote

On Tue, Aug 05, 2008 at 08:00:20AM -0700, Bill Pagan wrote:
Quote:
Does anyone have any info as to whether the new rudder improves the flight
characteristics of the airplane or just the looks?

I asked John Degonia, AMD's test pilot, and he says *he* can't tell any
difference in how the 650 flies compared to the 601. If he can't, I doubt
anyone else can, either.

The 601's rudder has all the control authority you could ever want. I don't
konw any way it could be improved.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (got it!)


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 8:01 am    Post subject: New Rudder Question Reply with quote

I looked at the new Zenith 650 a few days ago at Oshkosh and there isn't any major difference that I can see between the 650 and the 601XL except for the canopy, the canopy locking system and a few other minor modifications. If anyone heard, saw or knows of any major changes to the actual structure (wings, fuselage, etc) to improve or beef it up, tell us about it. I think the model number change (650 vs 601) is just a way for Zenith to distance itself from the concern over the rumored wing problem (nothing proven to date).

I like the new canopy latching system and think it can be adapted to a 601 that still has the canopy under construction. It wouldn't have a split canopy, but the new latching system looks like it could be used on the old type one-piece canopy. Any thoughts/ideas on adapting the new latching system to a 601? Looks pretty straight forward to me.


Jay Maynard <jmaynard(at)conmicro.com> wrote:
[quote]--> Zenith601-List message posted by: Jay Maynard

On Tue, Aug 05, 2008 at 08:00:20AM -0700, Bill Pagan wrote:
Quote:
Does anyone have any info as to whether the new rudder improves the flight
characteristics of the airplane or just the looks?

I asked John Degonia, AMD's test pilot, and he says *he* can't tell any
difference in how the 650 flies compared to the 601. If he can't, I doubt
anyone else can, either.

The 601's rudder has all the control authority you could ever want. I don't
konw any way it could be improved.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi [quote][b]


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Gig Giacona



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 8:29 am    Post subject: Re: New Rudder Question Reply with quote

Read some of the other messages in this thread...

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=46789

Also don't read too much into the concern over the wing problems thing. It seems that most of the changes were to combine the best of the European, AMD and Zenith versions of the plane into a new model.

Also check out http://zenithair.com/zodiac/ch650/index.html.

Finally AMD already uses that canopy latching system on 601XLs they build.

careywf(at)sbcglobal.net wrote:
I looked at the new Zenith 650 a few days ago at Oshkosh and there isn't any major difference that I can see between the 650 and the 601XL except for the canopy, the canopy locking system and a few other minor modifications. If anyone heard, saw or knows of any major changes to the actual structure (wings, fuselage, etc) to improve or beef it up, tell us about it. I think the model number change (650 vs 601) is just a way for Zenith to distance itself from the concern over the rumored wing problem (nothing proven to date).

I like the new canopy latching system and think it can be adapted to a 601 that still has the canopy under construction. It wouldn't have a split canopy, but the new latching system looks like it could be used on the old type one-piece canopy. Any thoughts/ideas on adapting the new latching system to a 601? Looks pretty straight forward to me.


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601XL Under Construction
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 8:59 am    Post subject: New Rudder Question Reply with quote

Hello Walter,

With your post I start thinking that is not that easy, just for this rumors, to design a new airplane...

A new model is not just like a cartoon in the news paper, one new one every day or week...

Also all Great Designers like Mr Heinz (and several others in the industry) cant stay still with just one model. Once a model is finished, their mind "jumps" to a new one... is just that. They cant stop thinking, designing or inventing something.

To design a new airplame, even if its just an improvement (from the builders and pilots comments and experiences), anyway this takes LOTS of time... maybe years, I think. Some go to prototypes or production, some stay as ideas and scketches...

In all industries, not just in the aviation industry. there is envy, this brings the idea to start rumors, everything to stop any competitors success... But a good Company and a good Designer stays.

Saludos
Gary Gower
Hard work pays... Back to work Smile
Do not archive.

--- On Tue, 8/5/08, Walter Carey <careywf(at)sbcglobal.net> wrote:

Quote:
From: Walter Carey <careywf(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: Re: New Rudder Question
To: zenith601-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Tuesday, August 5, 2008, 11:58 AM

I looked at the new Zenith 650 a few days ago at Oshkosh and there isn't any major difference that I can see between the 650 and the 601XL except for the canopy, the canopy locking system and a few other minor modifications. If anyone heard, saw or knows of any major changes to the actual structure (wings, fuselage, etc) to improve or beef it up, tell us about it. I think the model number change (650 vs 601) is just a way for Zenith to distance itself from the concern over the rumored wing problem (nothing proven to date).

I like the new canopy latching system and think it can be adapted to a 601 that still has the canopy under construction. It wouldn't have a split canopy, but the new latching system looks like it could be used on the old type one-piece canopy. Any thoughts/ideas on adapting the new latching system to a 601? Looks pretty straight forward to me.


Jay Maynard <jmaynard(at)conmicro.com> wrote:
Quote:
--> Zenith601-List message posted by: Jay Maynard

On Tue, Aug 05, 2008 at 08:00:20AM -0700, Bill Pagan wrote:
Quote:
Does anyone have any info as to whether the new rudder improves the flight
characteristics of the airplane or just the looks?

I asked John Degonia, AMD's test pilot, and he says *he* can't tell any
difference in how the 650 flies compared to the 601. If he can't, I doubt
anyone else can, either.

The 601's rudder has all the control authority you could ever want. I don't
konw any way it could be improved.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi
Quote:



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jmaynard



Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 394
Location: Fairmont, MN (FRM)

PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 9:04 am    Post subject: New Rudder Question Reply with quote

On Tue, Aug 05, 2008 at 08:58:14AM -0700, Walter Carey wrote:
Quote:
I think the model number change (650 vs 601) is just a way for Zenith to
distance itself from the concern over the rumored wing problem (nothing
proven to date).

Not even that...just a way to get press. "Hey, we've introduced a new
model!"

The only structural differences are the new rudder, the new canopy and
turtledeck, and the wing angle of incidence was very slightly adjusted to
lower the nose a tad.

Quote:
I like the new canopy latching system and think it can be adapted to a 601
that still has the canopy under construction. It wouldn't have a split
canopy, but the new latching system looks like it could be used on the old
type one-piece canopy. Any thoughts/ideas on adapting the new latching
system to a 601? Looks pretty straight forward to me.

My 601 has the new latch. Works fine. It was reported here recently that
they're developing a retrofit kit.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (got it!)


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AMD Zodiac XLi N55ZC
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 11:49 am    Post subject: New Rudder Question Reply with quote

On Tuesday 05 August 2008 12:04, Jay Maynard wrote:
Quote:


On Tue, Aug 05, 2008 at 08:58:14AM -0700, Walter Carey wrote:
> I think the model number change (650 vs 601) is just a way for Zenith to
> distance itself from the concern over the rumored wing problem (nothing
> proven to date).

Not even that...just a way to get press. "Hey, we've introduced a new
model!"

Or, perhaps, a way to justify what appears to be a significant jump in price.

Quote:
The only structural differences are the new rudder, the new canopy and
turtledeck, and the wing angle of incidence was very slightly adjusted to
lower the nose a tad.

Other old-timers may remember the story of the swept tail on the Cessna 172.
Engineering had an experimental model of the 172, on which a swept tail had
been added. Flight testing showed it was actually 2 miles per hour slower
than the straight tail, and had decided to scrap the idea. Marketing saw it,
and decreed that all 172s in the next model year would have swept tails.

Or so the story goes. The 601XL/650 is a heck of an airplane. I hate to see
minor changes that appear to be used to justify an increase in price.
--
=================================================
Jim B. Belcher
BS, MS Physics, math, Computer Science
A&P/IA
Instrument Rated Pilot
General Radio Telephone Certificate
=================================================


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 11:57 am    Post subject: New Rudder Question Reply with quote

In a message dated 8/5/2008 1:05:14 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jmaynard(at)conmicro.com writes:
Quote:
The only structural differences are the new rudder, the new canopy and
turtledeck, and the wing angle of incidence was very slightly adjusted to
lower the nose a tad.


They also made the rear spar attach point thicker and that has me asking the most questions.

Jeff

Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos.
[quote][b]


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 12:07 pm    Post subject: New Rudder Question Reply with quote

Jeff,

It has already been stated that the rear attach plate is thicker because it is also smaller. Is that somehow sinister? How many questions can you ask about that?

Jay in Dallas
Do not archive







--


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 12:09 pm    Post subject: New Rudder Question Reply with quote

On Tuesday 05 August 2008 14:56, Builder601xl(at)aol.com wrote:

Quote:
They also made the rear spar attach point thicker and that has me asking
the most questions.

I'm not a stess engineer, but that attach point and the method was one of the
few things in the 601XL that made me wonder. In a purely eyeball mode, it
doesn't look too robust.
--
=================================================
Jim B. Belcher
BS, MS Physics, math, Computer Science
A&P/IA
Instrument Rated Pilot
General Radio Telephone Certificate
=================================================


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 12:13 pm    Post subject: New Rudder Question Reply with quote

Quote:
They also made the rear spar attach point thicker and that has me asking the most questions.

I’ve already posted Caleb’s explanation of that change.

-- Craig

From: owner-zenith601-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Builder601xl(at)aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 1:57 PM
To: zenith601-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: New Rudder Question



In a message dated 8/5/2008 1:05:14 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jmaynard(at)conmicro.com writes:
Quote:

The only structural differences are the new rudder, the new canopy and
turtledeck, and the wing angle of incidence was very slightly adjusted to
lower the nose a tad.


They also made the rear spar attach point thicker and that has me asking the most questions.



Jeff





Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 12:47 pm    Post subject: New Rudder Question Reply with quote

In a message dated 8/5/2008 4:08:04 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jaybannist(at)cs.com writes:
Quote:
It has already been stated that the rear attach plate is thicker because it is also smaller. Is that somehow sinister? How many questions can you ask about that?


I looked at both of them and they looked the same size to me and I wasn't saying there was anything sinister at all I just wonder if it should have been done to the 601 is all. I spoke to Roger about it at Oshkosh and I except his explanation for it. But I have always thought they should have been thicker as do most that build one. I would be willing to bet that most look at that part long and hard before installing it. It just seems to thin is all. I'm not saying it is or it isn't it just looks thin when you think about what it does.
I do like the new canopy but was told they were concerned that the center section would be too week since they removed part of the turtle deck but I'm sure they worked that out.

Jeff

Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 5:10 pm    Post subject: New Rudder Question Reply with quote

does the wing still have the forward angled main spar and the slight forward sweep like the old one?

David L. Downey
Harleysville (SE) PA, USA


--- On Tue, 8/5/08, Jay Maynard <jmaynard(at)conmicro.com> wrote:
[quote]From: Jay Maynard <jmaynard(at)conmicro.com>
Subject: Re: Re: New Rudder Question
To: zenith601-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Tuesday, August 5, 2008, 1:04 PM

[quote]--> Zenith601-List message posted by: Jay Maynard
<jmaynard(at)conmicro.com>

On Tue, Aug 05, 2008 at 08:58:14AM -0700, Walter Carey wrote:
Quote:
I think the model number change (650 vs 601) is just a way for Zenith to
distance itself from the concern over the rumored wing problem (nothing
proven to date).

Not even that...just a way to get press. "Hey, we've introduced a new
model!"

The only structural differences are the new rudder, the new canopy and
turtledeck, and the wing angle of incidence was very slightly adjusted to
lower the nose a tad.

Quote:
I like the new canopy latching system and think it can be adapted to a 601
that still has the canopy under construction. It wouldn't have a split
canopy, but the new latching system looks like it could be used on the old
type one-piece canopy. Any thoughts/ideas on adapting the new latching
system to a 601? Looks pretty straight forward to me.

My 601 has the new latch. Works fine. It was reported here recently that
they're developing a retrofit kit.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com [quote][b]


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ashontz



Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 8:17 am    Post subject: Re: New Rudder Question Reply with quote

Dave, that was my question exactly. I just e-mailed Sebastien to see if I could have a peek at the wing structure pdf. That's the only significant change on the list, and honestly, it's a huge change. Changing the angle of incidence is no small change. How would one go about doing that if say you left the XL wing structure alone but actually tilted the wing back a few degrees. And how much would you need to tilt it back before it really made a noticable difference?

[quote="planecrazydld(at)yahoo.co"]does the wing still have the forward angled main spar and the slight forward sweep like the old one?

David L. Downey
Harleysville (SE) PA, USA


--- On Tue, 8/5/08, Jay Maynard <jmaynard> wrote:
[quote]From: Jay Maynard <jmaynard>
Subject: Re: Re: New Rudder Question
To: zenith601-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Tuesday, August 5, 2008, 1:04 PM

[quote]--> Zenith601-List message posted by: Jay Maynard
<jmaynard>

On Tue, Aug 05, 2008 at 08:58:14AM -0700, Walter Carey wrote:
Quote:
I think the model number change (650 vs 601) is just a way for Zenith to
distance itself from the concern over the rumored wing problem (nothing
proven to date).


Not even that...just a way to get press. "Hey, we've introduced a new
model!"

The only structural differences are the new rudder, the new canopy and
turtledeck, and the wing angle of incidence was very slightly adjusted to
lower the nose a tad.

Quote:
I like the new canopy latching system and think it can be adapted to a 601
that still has the canopy under construction. It wouldn't have a split
canopy, but the new latching system looks like it could be used on the old
type one-piece canopy. Any thoughts/ideas on adapting the new latching
system to a 601? Looks pretty straight forward to me.


My 601 has the new latch. Works fine. It was reported here recently that
they're developing a retrofit kit.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com
Quote:
[b]


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 8:36 am    Post subject: New Rudder Question Reply with quote

Andy, they are huge changes in terms of the ripple effects. I do not have the expertise to adequately assess them though. I will be lurking here to see what comes out.

David L. Downey
Harleysville (SE) PA, USA


--- On Thu, 9/4/08, ashontz <ashontz(at)nbme.org> wrote:
[quote]From: ashontz <ashontz(at)nbme.org>
Subject: Re: New Rudder Question
To: zenith601-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Thursday, September 4, 2008, 12:17 PM

[quote]--> Zenith601-List message posted by: "ashontz"
<ashontz(at)nbme.org>

Dave, that was my question exactly. I just e-mailed Sebastien to see if I could
have a peek at the wing structure pdf. That's the only significant change on
the list, and honestly, it's a huge change. Changing the angle of incidence
is no small change. How would one go about doing that if say you left the XL
wing structure alone but actually tilted the wing back a few degrees. And how
much would you need to tilt it back before it really made a noticable
difference?

[quote="planecrazydld(at)yahoo.co"]does the wing still have the
forward angled main spar and the slight forward sweep like the old one?

David L. Downey
Harleysville (SE) PA, USA


--- On Tue, 8/5/08, Jay Maynard wrote:
[quote]From: Jay Maynard
Subject: Re: Re: New Rudder Question
To: zenith601-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Tuesday, August 5, 2008, 1:04 PM

[quote]--> Zenith601-List message posted by: Jay Maynard
On Tue, Aug 05, 2008 at 08:58:14AM -0700, Walter Carey wrote:

Quote:
I think the model number change (650 vs 601) is just a way for Zenith to
distance itself from the concern over the rumored wing problem (nothing
proven to date).



Not even that...just a way to get press. "Hey, we've introduced a new
model!"

The only structural differences are the new rudder, the new canopy and
turtledeck, and the wing angle of incidence was very slightly adjusted to
lower the nose a tad.


Quote:
I like the new canopy latching system and think it can be adapted to a
601

Quote:
that still has the canopy under construction. It wouldn't have a
split

Quote:
canopy, but the new latching system looks like it could be used on the
old

Quote:
type one-piece canopy. Any thoughts/ideas on adapting the new latching
system to a 601? Looks pretty straight forward to me.



My 601 has the new latch. Works fine. It was reported here recently that
they're developing a retrofit kit.
--
Jay Maynard, [quote][b]


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