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Engine questions - Feedback Please

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Deems Davis

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 925

Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 3:33 pm Post subject: Engine questions - Feedback Please

I had my 1st visit from my EAA Tech  Councilor who is a long time A&P 

IA, he made some compelling points about anything other than a factory 

engine. His point is that engine parts have 'limits' set by the FAA, if 

they are within limits the part can be reused. And at most engine 

rebuilders facilities it goes into a 'bin/shelf/storage area' for future 

use in an engine rebuild.  Say for instance a crankshaft can be .003 

undersize (just an example I have no idea what the allowable limits 

really are)and still be OK, so the engine builder puts it in the 'good 

parts' bin where it gets used to build your engine. But say shortly 

after installing your 'new' engine the crank wears to .004, then you are 

actually blissfully flying around with a crank that is not within 

service limits. I'm assuming this is true, if not could someone please 

set me straight. I was close to making up my mind about an 

engine/supplier/source. But this has caused me to _seriously_ reconsider 

anything other than a factory engine. My TC says that as an A&P he 

receives correspondence from the FAA about engine shops that have been 

found to use parts that are not within limits, his comment was 'even 

some of the larger ones have had some instances'. I find all of this 

unsetteling. Any feedback?

Additionally, In my Prior aircraft, I always flew with 'Factory Remans' 

Are factory remans subject to the same 'limits' issue as in the above 

example? Or are Factory Reman's to 'New' Limits?



Thanks for your enlightment

Deems Davis # 406

Fuse

http://deemsrv10.com/

Tim(at)MyRV10.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 4:01 pm Post subject: Engine questions - Feedback Please

This isn't as detailed as your question, but...   As far as what I found

during my search, yes, cranks can either be to new limits, or various

undersized sizes.  If it's got wear, they can grind them down one size

and get a matching bearing.  When I shopped from America's Aircraft

Engines, I was able to get them to get me the specs on all the

IO-540 cranks they had and choose the one I wanted.  Some were new

limits, some were undersized.  I think as long as it's ground well,

undersized would be fine, but of course everyone wants new if they

can, right?   When I got my engine from Aerosport, the crank was

to new limits, and I don't think Bart normally will use something

that's not to new limits.  Also, everything in the top end is

new, and the case is used.  By the time the rebuild is done, from

one of those good places, there's very little to worry about.  Of

course, it's definitely a reason to buy only from a reputable rebuilder,

which is why I chose Aerosport.  America's Aircraft Engines is also

known to be good, as are some others.  In the end, I actually believe

that by getting a smooth running, well built engine, you don't have

much risk over new, and in fact with Lycomings crank issues recently,

I kind of trust their old cranks more...funny as that may seem.  Of

course, I wouldn't argue with a brand new engine either.  Everyone

seems to comment on how smooth my engine seems.  I can't be outside

to hear it run, but inside it sounds fine to me.  It sure runs well.

Anyway, just find yourself a good facility before you buy.



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

do not archive

Deems Davis wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 I had my 1st visit from my EAA Tech  Councilor who is a long time A&P 

 IA, he made some compelling points about anything other than a factory 

 engine. His point is that engine parts have 'limits' set by the FAA, if 

 they are within limits the part can be reused. And at most engine 

 rebuilders facilities it goes into a 'bin/shelf/storage area' for future 

 use in an engine rebuild.  Say for instance a crankshaft can be .003 

 undersize (just an example I have no idea what the allowable limits 

 really are)and still be OK, so the engine builder puts it in the 'good 

 parts' bin where it gets used to build your engine. But say shortly 

 after installing your 'new' engine the crank wears to .004, then you are 

 actually blissfully flying around with a crank that is not within 

 service limits. I'm assuming this is true, if not could someone please 

 set me straight. I was close to making up my mind about an 

 engine/supplier/source. But this has caused me to _seriously_ reconsider 

 anything other than a factory engine. My TC says that as an A&P he 

 receives correspondence from the FAA about engine shops that have been 

 found to use parts that are not within limits, his comment was 'even 

 some of the larger ones have had some instances'. I find all of this 

 unsetteling. Any feedback?

 Additionally, In my Prior aircraft, I always flew with 'Factory Remans' 

 Are factory remans subject to the same 'limits' issue as in the above 

 example? Or are Factory Reman's to 'New' Limits?

 

 Thanks for your enlightment

 

 

 Deems Davis # 406

 Fuse

 http://deemsrv10.com/

 

 

 

 

 http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

LarryRosen

Joined: 16 Jan 2006
Posts: 415
Location: Medford, NJ

Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 4:38 pm Post subject: Engine questions - Feedback Please

Tim,

You say:, "I can't be outside to hear it run, but inside it sounds fine 

to me." 



I am sure there are many  on this list that would be more than happy to 

solve this "problem" for you. 



Larry

do not archive

_________________
Larry Rosen
#40356
N205EN (reserved)
<http>

Tim(at)MyRV10.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 4:55 pm Post subject: Engine questions - Feedback Please

I think you'll just have to make a trip up here then so I can

take you for a ride, and after we're done you can hold the brakes

while I jump out and listen.

Tim



Larry Rosen wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Tim,

 You say:, "I can't be outside to hear it run, but inside it sounds fine 

 to me."

 I am sure there are many  on this list that would be more than happy to 

 solve this "problem" for you. 

 

 Larry

 do not archive

jhasbrouck(at)woh.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 5:13 pm Post subject: Engine questions - Feedback Please

Deems,

     Overhauls come in a couple of different flavors.  Most of us want an 

overhaul to "new limits" and that makes sense.  An overhaul to "service 

limits" can, as you say, be on the ragged edge and go over it during use. 

Factory overhauls can be to either new or service limits but most nowadays 

are to new limits.  Factory "remans" are a zero timed engine with a new log 

book.  Only the factory can do a "reman".  Any others ( than remans ) 

continue the time on the engine logs, ie:  TT3500 with TSMOH1500.  With 

competition in the after market, new cylinder assemblys have gotten pretty 

reasonable and it's hard to justify reworking old jugs.  Cams are the same 

way.  So, in reality, when you are buying a used engine (core) what you want 

is a good case and crank since you'll probably replace the rest with new 

anyway.  Lots of 540's out there with prop strikes.  Lycoming requires a 

teardown with ANY prop strike no matter how severe.  The crank in one of 

these can be a crapshoot.  Besides the prop flange being bent, you risk a 

crack in the crank that would render it useless.  Buying new from Lycoming 

COULD be a good bet if they don't recall anything else!



John Hasbrouck

#40264

Kellym

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1704
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 6:15 pm Post subject: Engine questions - Feedback Please

Let me clear up a few things for you Deems. My perspective...I have 

spent the last 350 hours flying behind an IO-360-A1A that I personally 

overhauled, in my Mooney. Yes, I have an A&P certificate, that was 

issued after 9/11. I don't know where your tech counselor got his 

information, but it is not all correct.  Only the factory actually puts 

used parts on the shelf for future use, unless you are talking a big 

repair station operation. The average shop and A&P must keep all the 

reusable parts of an engine together, along with the log books, to be 

able to track the time. Only the factory can do what the FAA calls a 

rebuild, resulting in a zero time engine. That is by regulation. That is 

what the marketing folks call a reman, which is a term not recognized by 

the FAA.

Everyone else produces overhauled engines, and Lycoming does as well. 

Those must have the parts kept together and the total time follows the 

major pieces. That said, everything on the engine but the data plate can 

be changed and still have the same engine with the same TT. Lycoming 

puts out SB240 which specifies the parts that must be changed at 

overhaul time if the engine is to be used for hire. It isn't mandatory 

for Part 91, nor experimental.  While an engine can be put together only 

meeting service limits, it typically is only done to fix a broken plane, 

such as a prop strike.

Anyone in their right mind, including virtually all overhaul shops will 

build to new specifications and limits, because it isn't that hard, nor 

does it change the overall cost much. The name shops, like BPA, Lycon, 

Mattituck, etc. do more than just new limits, they use their experience 

to make the engine better balanced, both in rotating mass and in flow. 

The smoother the engine runs, the less likely they are to see a warranty 

issue.

The problem with factory new, overhauled and reman, right now, is that 

Lycoming outsources manufacture of every single part in the engine. That 

is right, 15 years ago, more or less, they survived by selling every 

single piece of manufacturing equipment they owned. They only do QC and 

assembly on the engines. While you will get more new parts in a reman, 

you are not guaranteed new production dimensions. For example, they can 

use a crank turned .003 undersize. You will not get any history of any 

of the parts and will have no idea whether the case or crank have 2000 

hours or 10000 hours on them.  Their overhauled engines, while cheaper, 

also have shorter warranty, and while normally built to new limits, you 

are only guaranteed service limits, if you read the fine print. You also 

have no control on the TT on the engine you get. You might exchange a 

2000TT core for a 6000TT 0SMOH overhaul.

I think you will fine most of the well respected engine overhaul shops 

will give you better warranty, more control over your choices, and a 

better running engine than the factory. JMHO.



KM

KCHD, A&P

DO NOT ARCHIVE



Deems Davis wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 I had my 1st visit from my EAA Tech  Councilor who is a long time A&P 

 IA, he made some compelling points about anything other than a factory 

 engine. His point is that engine parts have 'limits' set by the FAA, if 

 they are within limits the part can be reused. And at most engine 

 rebuilders facilities it goes into a 'bin/shelf/storage area' for future 

 use in an engine rebuild.  Say for instance a crankshaft can be .003 

 undersize (just an example I have no idea what the allowable limits 

 really are)and still be OK, so the engine builder puts it in the 'good 

 parts' bin where it gets used to build your engine. But say shortly 

 after installing your 'new' engine the crank wears to .004, then you are 

 actually blissfully flying around with a crank that is not within 

 service limits. I'm assuming this is true, if not could someone please 

 set me straight. I was close to making up my mind about an 

 engine/supplier/source. But this has caused me to _seriously_ reconsider 

 anything other than a factory engine. My TC says that as an A&P he 

 receives correspondence from the FAA about engine shops that have been 

 found to use parts that are not within limits, his comment was 'even 

 some of the larger ones have had some instances'. I find all of this 

 unsetteling. Any feedback?

 Additionally, In my Prior aircraft, I always flew with 'Factory Remans' 

 Are factory remans subject to the same 'limits' issue as in the above 

 example? Or are Factory Reman's to 'New' Limits?

 

 Thanks for your enlightment

 

 

 Deems Davis # 406

 Fuse

 http://deemsrv10.com/

 

 

 

 

 http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD

rvbuilder(at)sausen.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 7:03 pm Post subject: Engine questions - Feedback Please

 Couple of things I would like to add to this.  At least one of the respected shops is apparently not very good at overhauling engines.  I know of at least one instance of a popular northern shop sending a unairworthy overhauled engine out but they built perfectly fine "new" kit engines, which is what that person ended up with.  If the shop doesn't do many overhauls, you might want to find one that does.

 

   There has been some discussion on how Mattituck is less expensive than other well known shops such as BPE and Aerosport.  Make sure you are comparing apples to apples.  For instance, I believe that if you add what BPE does standard to the Mattituck price, it is more than a BPE.  I'm sure Allen will chime in on this, but you get the idea. 

 

 Michael Sausen

 -10 #352 Fuselage

 

 --

Dick Sipp

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 215
Location: Hope, MI

Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 7:34 pm Post subject: Engine questions - Feedback Please

Deems,



Taking what Michael S. said just a bit further.  I believe with the price of 

core engines what it is now it appears that the Lycoming new kit engines, 

built by the approved shops cost little if any more than an overhauled used 

engine.



Prices are going up substantially though, literally in a few days, so for 

those on the fence this is the time to decide.



I ordered mine last week.  Delivery is running 3-4 months at least according 

to my shop.



Just something else to throw into the mix.



Dick Sipp

40065



---

LloydDR(at)wernerco.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 8:32 pm Post subject: Engine questions - Feedback Please

Does that mean you are open to visits? 

I would love to see your work, and the interior from Abby and pay for

allot of Avgas!

Dan 



--

GRANSCOTT(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2006 5:04 am Post subject: Engine questions - Feedback Please

Deems,

  

 I don't know if you've got a core to trade in but if you  do, please keep in mind that they apparently have been returning to the  exchange person with a bill up to $5k well after the over haul telling them that  the case exchanged is TU and that the person must immediately pay a service  core charge...and that the case has been destroyed and they have no proof  of their claim but you owe them $XX immediately.  The  core/service charge well after the overhaul, without proof has caused a lot  of discussion in the engine community, along with their cranks. 

  

 By the way this did happen to a friend of Kelly and mine in the Piper  community.

  

 If you really want the Lycoming engine and you've gotten a core to trade,  before committing, I'd check out the total package of costs from Lycoming and  get a full statement as to total charges current and future.  In addition  to all that Kelly gave you on the parts manufacturing situation, you'd hate to  have a surprise on a case return charge. And you'd probably get the bill  about the time when you are getting ready to crank up your first  flight. Putting you in one great mood!  FYI---

  

 Patrick

 do not archive

GRANSCOTT(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2006 5:05 am Post subject: Engine questions - Feedback Please

In a message dated 3/11/06 8:15:15 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  jhasbrouck(at)woh.rr.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Lycoming    requires a 

teardown with ANY prop strike no matter how  severe. 	


 

 Or minor...if you hit a small bird in flight or a rock strikes your prop  according to Lycoming the engine needs tearing down.

  

 Patrick

 do not archive

wcurtis(at)core.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2006 3:29 pm Post subject: Engine questions - Feedback Please

GRANSCOTT(at)aol.com wrote: > >I don't know if you've got a core to trade in but if you  do, >please keep in mind that they apparently have been returning to >the  exchange person with a bill up to $5k well after the over >haul telling them that  the case exchanged is TU and that the >person must immediately pay a service  core charge...and >that the case has been destroyed and they have no proof  of their >claim but you owe them $XX immediately.  The  core/service charge >well after the overhaul, without proof has caused a lot  of >discussion in the engine community, along with their cranks.  >  Patrick,  I think your info is a little outdated. Per the memo dated 03 April 2005, at the below link, there is no longer a core charge as long as it is a "like" core, it is running, and it is the same engine. So any boat anchor will do.  It only makes sense for them to get rid of the "junk" out in the field.  http://www.lycoming.textron.com/corepolicy/corepolicy.pdf  If the above link does not work go to the below link and click on "Open Letter to Our Customers."  Or do a Google search on "Lycoming Core policy"   William Curtis http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/

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