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nuckollsr(at)cox.net
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 6:25 am    Post subject: Marketing research question Reply with quote

I've got a couple of guys scratching on napkins at Connie's
El Mexico cafe over ways to do an annunciator system.
They're considering system sizing and trying to deduce
whether to craft a 9 or 12 slot annunciator panel. It seems that
the largest segment of the OBAM aircraft community would have
trouble filling up a 9-slot annunciator panel.

A 9-slot panel is looking like 4.2 x 1.6 inches. A 12-slot
would be 5.3 x 1.6 inches. We're considering processes for
both fabrication and software that would make the product
highly customizable. I.e. you decide whether incoming signals
are analog, pull up to bus, pull down to ground, what
the legends say, and colors of the legends. Of course this
is a 'dead front' design . . . legends essentially disappear
when not illuminated.

Just for grins, I'll toss the question out to the list.
From of the list items below, what additional or alternative
points of interest might be important enough to light a light
and/or blow in your ear?

Main Volts Lo
Aux Volts Lo
Left Fuel Lo
Right Fuel Lo
Oil Pres Lo
Canopy Latch
OAT Warn
Pitot Heat


Bob . . .
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >


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mark.steitle(at)austin.ut
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 6:35 am    Post subject: Marketing research question Reply with quote

Bob,
Running a liquid cooled rotary, I would add:
Coolant Temp,
Coolant Pres,
Coolant Low, and also
Oil Temp.

Mark

--


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mlas(at)cox.net
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 6:55 am    Post subject: Marketing research question Reply with quote

I know that these functions are not as common on most airplanes, but I
have them and they could mean the difference. Speed Brakes, Ram Air
Open, Gear Pump On, (Continental Engines and the New ECI fuel system for
Lycomings - you don't want the pump left on in normal use - "Fuel Pump
On")

Food for thought, the Advanced Flight Systems AF-2500 has an intergraded
customizable electronic warning system with audio built into the engine
system package. Over the last three years I have worked with 30 plus
owners and all seem to like this type of system. This has prompted an
engineer friend of mine at Honeywell to come up with a LCD digital stand
alone annunciator system. If you would like I'll keep you posted on his
progress.

Mike

Lancair Legacy
TS-11
Kitfox
A-320

--


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jschroeder(at)perigee.net
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 6:57 am    Post subject: Marketing research question Reply with quote

Bob -

I would add:

Boost Pump
Baggage Door
Ground Power
Starter Engaged
Crossfeed
On Thu, 09 Mar 2006 08:20:59 -0600, Robert L. Nuckolls, III
<nuckollsr(at)cox.net> wrote:

Quote:
Just for grins, I'll toss the question out to the list.
From of the list items below, what additional or alternative
points of interest might be important enough to light a light
and/or blow in your ear?
Main Volts Lo
Aux Volts Lo
Left Fuel Lo
Right Fuel Lo
Oil Pres Lo
Canopy Latch
OAT Warn
Pitot Heat

--


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Bill Denton



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 97
Location: Chicago, IL USA

PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 7:16 am    Post subject: Marketing research question Reply with quote

A couple of minor points, if I may...

Isn't there some sort of "recommended standard" for the colors to be used
for warning lights and annunciators? I thought I read something about this
recently, but I can't seem to find a link to the article.

Regarding the "dead front" design, let me mention a usability issue from the
computer field that might or might not be relevant in the aviation world:

Consider a computer program with two "screens". When you are on one screen,
you can both "Print" and "Save" data, and there are "buttons" at the top of
the screen that allow you to accomplish this. But on the second page, you
can only "Print" the data. Common sense would dictate that since you can't
save information on the second page, there would be no need to display a
"Save" button; only a "Print" button would be required.

But we determined that users preferred to also have a "Save" button on the
second page, even though it was disabled and non-functional. A consistent
button layout provided more usability than a design in which buttons
appeared and disappeared, which tended to confuse users.

Again, I don't know if this is relevant in the aircraft world, but it might
be worth considering.

One other point regarding the "dead front" design: What about the first-time
or occasional flyer of the airplane? How would they know which parameters
were annunciated, and which would need to be monitored via a gauge or other
indicator?

I assume good practice would dictate that all of the annunciator lights
would be illuminated when the battery master was turned on, then go dark
following engine start. While this would provide some indication of what
parameters would be annunciated, would the first-time or occasional pilot
remember what they were?

None of this may be of any importance whatsoever, but these are the sort of
questions I would want to see asked anytime anything was being designed...

--


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brian



Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 643
Location: Sacramento, California, USA

PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 7:20 am    Post subject: Marketing research question Reply with quote

Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:

Quote:
Just for grins, I'll toss the question out to the list.
From of the list items below, what additional or alternative
points of interest might be important enough to light a light
and/or blow in your ear?

Main Volts Lo
Aux Volts Lo
Left Fuel Lo
Right Fuel Lo
Oil Pres Lo
Canopy Latch
OAT Warn
Pitot Heat

You know, I installed an OAT warning in my RV-4 to let me know when the
OAT dropped below 0C. It turned out to be a huge annoyance as it would
go off whether or not there was any chance for ice. And when there was a
chance of ice and temps below 0C, I already knew without the warning.

This tells me that an OAT warning is not particularly useful. Kind of
like an ELT: 100 false alarms for one useful alarm.

--
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)

I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery


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Brian Lloyd
brian-yak at lloyd dot com
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)

I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
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rv-9a-online(at)telus.net
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 8:23 am    Post subject: Marketing research question Reply with quote

Bob: I've looked at this problem extensively in the past, and developed
several annunciator products, and have a few more on the drawing board.

In my opinion, no matter what you choose, someone will always require
something different than you make. If you end up being totally general
purpose, then you may wish to consider a color LCD screen as an
annunciator display.

This has it's drawbacks too-- many people like discrete lamps.

NKK makes some (very expensive) backlit LCD switches/displays. You can
display legends or messages on a small (about 1"x1") display, and have
the option of incorporating a mute/acknowledge switch built into the
display.

Of course, by the time you are done, this will cost more than some
electronic engine monitors... which are well positioned as annunciator
displays (given enough inputs).

I also looked at customization at build time... programming inputs and
legends. This is a very expensive (and error prone) process. If you
can make everything field programmable by the end user, it will be
easier and cheaper in the long term.

Finally, as you (unfortunately) know, the Experimental aircraft market
is too small to justify expensive custom tooling and software
development, so it's nice to piggy back on other markets (like
industrial control). Of course... you need entirely different input
and legend requirements.... oh well!

Good luck with this project, I hope they find the recipe for success.

Vern Little

Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
Quote:


I've got a couple of guys scratching on napkins at Connie's
El Mexico cafe over ways to do an annunciator system.
They're considering system sizing and trying to deduce
whether to craft a 9 or 12 slot annunciator panel. It seems that
the largest segment of the OBAM aircraft community would have
trouble filling up a 9-slot annunciator panel.

A 9-slot panel is looking like 4.2 x 1.6 inches. A 12-slot
would be 5.3 x 1.6 inches. We're considering processes for
both fabrication and software that would make the product
highly customizable. I.e. you decide whether incoming signals
are analog, pull up to bus, pull down to ground, what
the legends say, and colors of the legends. Of course this
is a 'dead front' design . . . legends essentially disappear
when not illuminated.

Just for grins, I'll toss the question out to the list.
From of the list items below, what additional or alternative
points of interest might be important enough to light a light
and/or blow in your ear?

Main Volts Lo
Aux Volts Lo
Left Fuel Lo
Right Fuel Lo
Oil Pres Lo
Canopy Latch
OAT Warn
Pitot Heat



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Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-greno
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 8:29 am    Post subject: Marketing research question Reply with quote

Robert L. Nuckolls, III a crit :

Quote:


I've got a couple of guys scratching on napkins at Connie's
El Mexico cafe over ways to do an annunciator system.
They're considering system sizing and trying to deduce
whether to craft a 9 or 12 slot annunciator panel. It seems that
the largest segment of the OBAM aircraft community would have
trouble filling up a 9-slot annunciator panel.

A 9-slot panel is looking like 4.2 x 1.6 inches. A 12-slot
would be 5.3 x 1.6 inches. We're considering processes for
both fabrication and software that would make the product
highly customizable. I.e. you decide whether incoming signals
are analog, pull up to bus, pull down to ground, what
the legends say, and colors of the legends. Of course this
is a 'dead front' design . . . legends essentially disappear
when not illuminated.

Just for grins, I'll toss the question out to the list.
From of the list items below, what additional or alternative
points of interest might be important enough to light a light
and/or blow in your ear?

Main Volts Lo
Aux Volts Lo
Left Fuel Lo
Right Fuel Lo
Oil Pres Lo
Canopy Latch
OAT Warn
Pitot Heat



Hi Bob and all,

In our project, we have two Rotax specific lights :

Overboost (red)
Turbo (control malfunction) (yellow)

I also included
Boost pump ON (white)
Flaps down (white)

Coolant pressure would be great, too.

FWIW,
Regards,
Gilles Thesee
Grenoble, France
http://contrails.free.fr


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Jerry Grimmonpre'



Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 144
Location: Huntley, Illinois 60142

PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 9:39 am    Post subject: Marketing research question Reply with quote

Bob ...
How about only one small LCD the size of single display light ... When a
warning is announced, it is displayed. If there's more than one warning the
LCD scrolls to display when the acknowledge button is pressed. The
ackowledge button would also change the color of the displyed item until
that item is dealt with. I think a simple aural tone would be enough to get
attention. The aural tone would end with pushing the acknowledge button.
This single display would fit all panels and be cheap to produce.
My 2 cents ...
Jerry Grimmonpre'
RV8A


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sportav8r(at)aol.com
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 10:00 am    Post subject: Marketing research question Reply with quote

Sensors might be difficult, but the inputs I'd need most often are things like: Tiedowns still tied; Pitot cover left on; Passenger exceeds allowable weight or girth limits; canopy ajar; cowl plugs still in; bad wx decision; Center freq. selected for air-air chit-chat; seafood cooler leakage.

On a serious note, how about a FWF fire annunciator?

-Bill B

--


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 11:05 am    Post subject: Marketing research question Reply with quote

Electric Bob asked:
<< From of the list items below, what additional or alternative
points of interest might be important enough to light a light
and/or blow in your ear? >>

My addition would be landing gear up and throttle > 1/3.

Regards,

Bob Lee
KR2 N52BL Suwanee, GA
91% done only 63% to go!


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rv8ch



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 250
Location: Switzerland

PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 11:11 am    Post subject: Marketing research question Reply with quote

Quote:
From of the list items below, what additional or alternative
points of interest might be important enough to light a light
and/or blow in your ear?

Main Volts Lo
Aux Volts Lo
Left Fuel Lo
Right Fuel Lo
Oil Pres Lo
Canopy Latch
OAT Warn
Pitot Heat


Bob,

You've gotten some great feedback already. Trio Avionics
is using an LCD switch that has text that changes.

http://www.trioavionics.com/alt_hold.htm

Here's Paul Dye's home grown annunciator panel:

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=5197

Whatever you do, I'd recommend leaving the labels open
for the builder to set them however they like. Clear
label makers with reverse text output work great for this.

Also, Vern's got some nice products here:

http://www.vx-aviation.com/page_2.html

Here's what I'm planning:

Engine Computer Warning
Fuel Pressure Low
Aux Fuel Pump On
OVP Active
Low Coolant
EIS Warning

The EIS Warning is linked to the GRT Avionics EIS 4000,
and it is monitoring lots of stuff.

Best regards,
Mickey
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 finishing


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 11:11 am    Post subject: Marketing research question Reply with quote

At 11:37 AM 3/9/2006 -0600, you wrote:

Quote:


Bob ...
How about only one small LCD the size of single display light ... When a
warning is announced, it is displayed. If there's more than one warning the
LCD scrolls to display when the acknowledge button is pressed. The
ackowledge button would also change the color of the displyed item until
that item is dealt with. I think a simple aural tone would be enough to get
attention. The aural tone would end with pushing the acknowledge button.
This single display would fit all panels and be cheap to produce.
My 2 cents ...
Jerry Grimmonpre'

We talked about this . . . but sunlight viewabel LCD's are
still pretty pricey compared to an epoxy casting
full of LED which are getting cheaper daily.

. . . and certainly, new warnings would flash and deliver
a warning tone. When a button is pushed, flashing and tone
stops.

Bob. . .


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 11:24 am    Post subject: Marketing research question Reply with quote

At 09:13 AM 3/9/2006 -0600, you wrote:

Quote:


A couple of minor points, if I may...

Isn't there some sort of "recommended standard" for the colors to be used
for warning lights and annunciators? I thought I read something about this
recently, but I can't seem to find a link to the article.

Yes. We use the "accepted/approved" colors for such things out
at RAC . . . but picking colors will be a trivial concern
and highly customizable.
Quote:
One other point regarding the "dead front" design: What about the first-time
or occasional flyer of the airplane? How would they know which parameters
were annunciated, and which would need to be monitored via a gauge or other
indicator?

Press-to-test and power-up reset lights all the lights.

Quote:
I assume good practice would dictate that all of the annunciator lights
would be illuminated when the battery master was turned on, then go dark
following engine start. While this would provide some indication of what
parameters would be annunciated, would the first-time or occasional pilot
remember what they were?

None of this may be of any importance whatsoever, but these are the sort of
questions I would want to see asked anytime anything was being designed...

Good food for thought. Thanks!

Bob . . .


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 11:37 am    Post subject: Marketing research question Reply with quote

At 08:18 AM 3/9/2006 -0800, you wrote:

Quote:


Bob: I've looked at this problem extensively in the past, and developed
several annunciator products, and have a few more on the drawing board.

In my opinion, no matter what you choose, someone will always require
something different than you make. If you end up being totally general
purpose, then you may wish to consider a color LCD screen as an
annunciator display.

We're targeting the middle market with a goal
of minimizing costs (and of course, development
time).
Quote:
This has it's drawbacks too-- many people like discrete lamps.

NKK makes some (very expensive) backlit LCD switches/displays. You can
display legends or messages on a small (about 1"x1") display, and have
the option of incorporating a mute/acknowledge switch built into the
display.

Of course, by the time you are done, this will cost more than some
electronic engine monitors... which are well positioned as annunciator
displays (given enough inputs).

Yup . . .
Quote:
I also looked at customization at build time... programming inputs and
legends. This is a very expensive (and error prone) process. If you
can make everything field programmable by the end user, it will be
easier and cheaper in the long term.

Yes. One version would have a USB port and a graphical
user interface for user programming of certain parameters.
Of course, with lamps, the legends are harder to change
but it's a peel-off overlay. We could fabricate a new
one pretty reasonably.

Quote:
Finally, as you (unfortunately) know, the Experimental aircraft market
is too small to justify expensive custom tooling and software
development, so it's nice to piggy back on other markets (like
industrial control). Of course... you need entirely different input
and legend requirements.... oh well!

I'm not sure that's so much of a roadblock. $time$ to market
for certified ships is going up exponentially with new no-value-added-
requirements and labor being added each year. My team of skunk-works guys
can wear a lot of hats and don't need to satisfy anyone but me
and my customers . . .
Quote:
Good luck with this project, I hope they find the recipe for success.

Thanks for sharing . . .

Bob . . .


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 6:40 pm    Post subject: Marketing research question Reply with quote

At 02:08 PM 3/9/2006 -0500, you wrote:

Quote:


Electric Bob asked:
<< From of the list items below, what additional or alternative
points of interest might be important enough to light a light
and/or blow in your ear? >>

My addition would be landing gear up and throttle > 1/3.

Regards,

Bob Lee
KR2 N52BL Suwanee, GA
91% done only 63% to go!


Good one.

Bob . . .


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 6:52 pm    Post subject: Marketing research question Reply with quote

At 07:19 AM 3/9/2006 -0800, you wrote:

Quote:


Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:

> Just for grins, I'll toss the question out to the list.
> From of the list items below, what additional or alternative
> points of interest might be important enough to light a light
> and/or blow in your ear?
>
> Main Volts Lo
> Aux Volts Lo
> Left Fuel Lo
> Right Fuel Lo
> Oil Pres Lo
> Canopy Latch
> OAT Warn
> Pitot Heat

You know, I installed an OAT warning in my RV-4 to let me know when the
OAT dropped below 0C. It turned out to be a huge annoyance as it would
go off whether or not there was any chance for ice. And when there was a
chance of ice and temps below 0C, I already knew without the warning.

This tells me that an OAT warning is not particularly useful. Kind of
like an ELT: 100 false alarms for one useful alarm.

Good data point. Now an active ice detector . . .

I did some experimenting a few years ago with piezo-electric
speaker-disks. Rigged them up in an oscillator circuit where
the electrical/mass characteristics of the disk determined
frequency. Any addition of mass to the disk (ice accretion)
dropped the frequency or killed the oscillation entirely.

That project never bubbled up to the top of the IR&D interest
list. The last concept was fragile and not terribly esthetic either.
It was a rather strange looking projection from a leading edge
although mounting it on the vertical fin seemed least likely
to offend.
Bob . . .

Quote:
--
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)

I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery


--



Bob . . .
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 6:54 pm    Post subject: Marketing research question Reply with quote

At 09:57 AM 3/9/2006 -0500, you wrote:

Quote:

<jschroeder(at)perigee.net>

Bob -

I would add:

Boost Pump
Baggage Door
Ground Power
Starter Engaged
Crossfeed

Good.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 6:55 pm    Post subject: Marketing research question Reply with quote

At 07:54 AM 3/9/2006 -0700, you wrote:

Quote:


I know that these functions are not as common on most airplanes, but I
have them and they could mean the difference. Speed Brakes, Ram Air
Open, Gear Pump On, (Continental Engines and the New ECI fuel system for
Lycomings - you don't want the pump left on in normal use - "Fuel Pump
On")

Food for thought, the Advanced Flight Systems AF-2500 has an intergraded
customizable electronic warning system with audio built into the engine
system package. Over the last three years I have worked with 30 plus
owners and all seem to like this type of system. This has prompted an
engineer friend of mine at Honeywell to come up with a LCD digital stand
alone annunciator system. If you would like I'll keep you posted on his
progress.

Mike

Sure! One needs to keep their friends close and their competition
closer . . . but then we're all friends here. It would be interesting
to hear of any insights that can be shared.

Bob . . .


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armywrights(at)adelphia.n
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 7:56 pm    Post subject: Marketing research question Reply with quote

Emplace a "push-to-test" spring-loaded button next to the annunciator panel
that illuminates the chicklets. Then you can verify not just when the
master initially comes on, but also any time on ground or in flight to
verify function.

Rob

--


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