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Zenith-List: XL down - France

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Aerolitellc(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 10:37 am Post subject: Zenith-List: XL down - France

http://www.bea-fr.org/docspa/2007/85-k070707/pdf/85-k070707.pdf

  

 Hopefully someone else can translate this better but it sounds like the  pilot was at 3,000 feet (at) 112 MPH and began a decent (at) 120 mph and the pilot  heard a thud then a snap under his feet then he sees the left wing  retreat. He then started to bank and roll and he deployed the BRS  chute.

  

 Jeff



Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food.

  [quote][b]

Iberplanes

Joined: 10 Dec 2007
Posts: 174
Location: Igualada - Barcelona - Spain

Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 10:53 am Post subject: Zenith-List: XL down - France

Sorry, already done on the other list.

  

 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ZBAG

  

 Alberto Martin

Iberplanes IGL 

http://www.iberplanes.es

Igualada -  Barcelona - España



 Translation:

  

 The left wing failed in flight. The cause was determined to be  maneuvering

in excess of the aircraft's structural limits. The aircraft was  destroyed.



The accident flight was a local flight intended for taking  pictures. The

pilot began a descent at 3000 feet and 180 km/hr (97 knots),  and as the

speed increased to 200 km/hr (108 knots), he heard a snap and then  a banging

under his feet. He pulled on the stick and the left wing folded up  until it

touched the canopy. He estimated that he moved the stick through  about a

third of its total travel. The aircraft entered a spin (I think -  JRM). When

the aircraft was once again level, the pilot fired the BRS and  descended

slowly to earth, taking about a minute and touching down with a low  vertical

speed.



Examination of the wreckage showed that the left wing  root is deformed and

that the spar (? - "longeron", but that has a different  meaning to us

English speakers, and one of the latter isn't present in the  wing) failed

due to a static upwards force.



The pilot made a habit of  flying maneuvers that, while not being aerobatics,

reached an indicated 3 G  on a panel-mounted accelerometer. It was not

possible to determine the G  forces at the time of the failure because the

accelerometer was reset after  the event.



The aircraft is a copy of the Zenair CH601XL. The kit used by  the builder is

sold by a Polish manufacturer with no connection to Zenair.  Zenair's

documentation, and that furnished by the kit manufacturer, indicate  the

flight envelope is limited to -2 and +4 G. The airfoil of this aircraft  was

not tested to see if it met the specifications. The aircraft has a Vne  of

290 km/h (157 knots).

  

  

   [quote][b]

_________________
Alberto Martin
601 XL - Jabiru 3300
http://www.iberplanes.es
Igualada - Barcelona - Spain

jmaynard

Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 394
Location: Fairmont, MN (FRM)

Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 11:11 am Post subject: Zenith-List: XL down - France

On Thu, May 29, 2008 at 02:36:43PM -0400, Aerolitellc(at)aol.com wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   _http://www.bea-fr.org/docspa/2007/85-k070707/pdf/85-k070707.pdf_ 

 (http://www.bea-fr.org/docspa/2007/85-k070707/pdf/85-k070707.pdf) 

  

 Hopefully someone else can translate this better


	


Here's a message I posted to the Zenith Builders Analysis Group list:



I hadn't heard of this one, but while enlightening, it's probably not going

to be definitive.



I used to be fairly fluent in French. I'm not any more, mainly because my

vocabulary's gone poof - and I never had the aviation terms to begin with.

Nevertheless, I was able to make a rough translation:



-----



The left wing failed in flight. The cause was determined to be maneuvering

in excess of the aircraft's structural limits. The aircraft was destroyed.



The accident flight was a local flight intended for taking pictures. The

pilot began a descent at 3000 feet and 180 km/hr (97 knots), and as the

speed increased to 200 km/hr (108 knots), he heard a snap and then a banging

under his feet. He pulled on the stick and the left wing folded up until it

touched the canopy. He estimated that he moved the stick through about a

third of its total travel. The aircraft entered a spin (I think - JRM). When

the aircraft was once again level, the pilot fired the BRS and descended

slowly to earth, taking about a minute and touching down with a low vertical

speed.



Examination of the wreckage showed that the left wing root is deformed and

that the spar (? - "longeron", but that has a different meaning to us

English speakers, and one of the latter isn't present in the wing) failed

due to a static upwards force.



The pilot made a habit of flying maneuvers that, while not being aerobatics,

reached an indicated 3 G on a panel-mounted accelerometer. It was not

possible to determine the G forces at the time of the failure because the

accelerometer was reset after the event.



The aircraft is a copy of the Zenair CH601XL. The kit used by the builder is

sold by a Polish manufacturer with no connection to Zenair. Zenair's

documentation, and that furnished by the kit manufacturer, indicate the

flight envelope is limited to -2 and +4 G. The airfoil of this aircraft was

not tested to see if it met the specifications. The aircraft has a Vne of

290 km/h (157 knots).



-----



Sounds like the guy routinely overstressed his airframe, and it came back to

haunt him.

-- 

Jay Maynard, K5ZC                   http://www.conmicro.com

http://jmaynard.livejournal.com      http://www.tronguy.net

Fairmont, MN (FRM)                        (Yes, that's me!)

AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 10 June)

_________________
Jay Maynard, K5ZC
AMD Zodiac XLi N55ZC

ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 12:24 pm Post subject: Re: Zenith-List: XL down - France

How did he exceed the limitations of the flight envelope? He was going 97kts, then went into a shallow dive, accelerated to 108kts and heard a pop, THEN, he pulled back on the stick 1/3. If that in fact is the case, that 'manuever' doesn't sound hairy at all.

ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 12:31 pm Post subject: Re: Zenith-List: XL down - France

Sounds like the guy routinely overstressed his airframe, and it came back to

haunt him.

-- 

Jay Maynard, K5ZC                   http://www.conmicro.com

http://jmaynard.livejournal.com      http://www.tronguy.net

Fairmont, MN (FRM)                        (Yes, that's me!)

AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 10 June)[/quote]



Then again, this could well be the case too. We throw these G numbers around here all the time, after awhile it doesn't carry the same impact as it used to. If your average non-pilot human regualrly wore a G meter all their life, that G meter would probably never even come close to 2.2 their entire life.

ggower_99(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 3:42 pm Post subject: Zenith-List: XL down - France

Yes, but most important, was not a Zenithair airplane at all...  Was a Copy-Clone,   so there is no control over the materials used....  This company just makes "his" kits,  nothing to do with Zenith aircraft Co..

   

  Gary Gower



Aerolitellc(at)aol.com wrote:

  [quote]    http://www.bea-fr.org/docspa/2007/85-k070707/pdf/85-k070707.pdf

   

  Hopefully someone else can translate this better but it sounds like the pilot was at 3,000 feet (at) 112 MPH and began a decent (at) 120 mph and the pilot heard a thud then a snap under his feet then he sees the left wing retreat. He then started         [quote][b]

craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest

Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 3:52 pm Post subject: Zenith-List: XL down - France

But if they followed the plans and used the correct materials then they are no different than a scratch builder and the cause of failure is still of great interest.  

   

-- Craig  

     

From: owner-zenith601-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Gower

 Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2008 5:42 PM

 To: zenith601-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Re: Zenith-List: XL down - France  

  

     

Yes, but most important, was not a Zenithair airplane at all...  Was a Copy-Clone,   so there is no control over the materials used....  This company just makes "his" kits,  nothing to do with Zenith aircraft Co..  

    

   

    

Gary Gower

 

 Aerolitellc(at)aol.com wrote:  

  [quote]    

http://www.bea-fr.org/docspa/2007/85-k070707/pdf/85-k070707.pdf  

    

   

    

Hopefully someone else can translate this better but it sounds like the pilot was at 3,000 feet (at) 112 MPH and began a decent (at) 120 mph and the pilot heard a thud then a snap under his feet then he sees the left wing retreat. He then started    	  Quote: 	
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  [b]

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 3:57 pm Post subject: Re: Zenith-List: XL down - France

That's a BIG if Craig. Companies that would pirate and sell another companies design would most likely cut other corners.

 	  craig(at)craigandjean.com wrote: 	
		  But if they followed the plans and used the correct materials then they are no different than a scratch builder and the cause of failure is still of great interest.  

   

-- Craig

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest

Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 4:07 pm Post subject: Zenith-List: XL down - France

Unproven either way. But wouldn't you like to know for sure how the plane

was built and what it was built out of? Or just assume that it isn't

relevant to the planes we are building?



-- Craig



--

Jaybannist(at)cs.com
Guest

Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 4:30 pm Post subject: Zenith-List: XL down - France

But IF a frog had wings, he wouldn't bump his butt every time he jumped.



Jay in Dallas

Do not archive

"Craig Payne" <craig(at)craigandjean.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  But if they followed the plans and used the correct materials then they are

no different than a scratch builder and the cause of failure is still of

great interest.



 



-- Craig



 



From: owner-zenith601-list-server(at)matronics.com

[mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Gower

Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2008 5:42 PM

To: zenith601-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Re: Zenith-List: XL down - France



 



Yes, but most important, was not a Zenithair airplane at all...  Was a

Copy-Clone,   so there is no control over the materials used....  This

company just makes "his" kits,  nothing to do with Zenith aircraft Co..



 



Gary Gower



Aerolitellc(at)aol.com wrote:



http://www.bea-fr.org/docspa/2007/85-k070707/pdf/85-k070707.pdf



 



Hopefully someone else can translate this better but it sounds like the

pilot was at 3,000 feet (at) 112 MPH and began a decent (at) 120 mph and the pilot

heard a thud then a snap under his feet then he sees the left wing retreat.

He then started

ggower_99(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 4:51 pm Post subject: Zenith-List: XL down - France

Yes, There is something that we have learned (in the manufacturing  business),  that if anyone wants to compete in prices with a much lower production volume,  the only way out is  lowering labor and the material quality...  This is World Wide in any type of manufacturing,  no big surprise for any of us.   No saying that this  was this particular cause...

  Do not archive.

   

   



Gig Giacona <wrgiacona(at)gmail.com> wrote:

  [quote]--> Zenith601-List message posted by: "Gig Giacona" 



That's a BIG if Craig. Companies that would pirate and sell another companies design would most likely cut other corners.



craig(at)craigandjean.com wrote:

[quote] But if they followed the plans and used the correct materials then           [quote][b]

ggower_99(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 4:53 pm Post subject: Zenith-List: XL down - France

Sure, this is why we all are waiting for the investigation(s) results: Facts...

   

  Do ntot archive



Craig Payne <craig(at)craigandjean.com> wrote:

  [quote]--> Zenith601-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" 



Unproven either way. But wouldn't you like to know for sure how the plane

was built and what it was built out of? Or just assume that it isn't

relevant to the planes we are building?



-- Craig



--

ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 4:58 pm Post subject: Re: Zenith-List: XL down - France

Let's say the design was identical, but the materials weren't wouldn't that then show the weak spots in the design?



 	  Gig Giacona wrote: 	
		  That's a BIG if Craig. Companies that would pirate and sell another companies design would most likely cut other corners.

 	  craig(at)craigandjean.com wrote: 	
		  But if they followed the plans and used the correct materials then they are no different than a scratch builder and the cause of failure is still of great interest.  

   

-- Craig

ter_turn(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 5:18 pm Post subject: Zenith-List: XL down - France

If the plane is in fact built to Zenith Specs. then the manner of the failure is of interest to us A wing failing in mid-air and the pilot still able to save the rest of the airframe may provide us with some answers we've all been waiting for.I hope we'll be able to get access to the accident report.



Do not archive



Terry Turnquist

601-XL Plans

St. Peters MO



Gary Gower <ggower_99(at)yahoo.com> wrote:[quote] Sure, this is why we all are waiting for the investigation(s) results: Facts...

   

  Do ntot archive



Craig Payne <craig(at)craigandjean.com> wrote:

  [quote]--> Zenith601-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" 



Unproven either           [quote][b]

Larry Hursh

Joined: 16 Feb 2008
Posts: 125
Location: Edwardsburg, MI (near Elkhart, IN)

Posted: Fri May 30, 2008 3:22 am Post subject: Zenith-List: XL down - France

 	  Quote: 	
		   	  Quote: 	
		  Zenith601-List message posted by: "Gig Giacona"

<wrgiacona(at)gmail.com>



That's a BIG if Craig. Companies that would pirate and sell another

companies design would most likely cut other corners.



Gig,The Pennsylvania Dutch have a saying.  It goes like this:  The quality of oats Is dependent on the price you pay for them. Sure, you can buy a cheaper costing oat, but it will AFTER the horse.  In other words, quality and price of goods DO go hand in hand.  If you buysomething cheap, you should expect something inferior.  It will all dependon your application of use.  In the case of buying an aircraft (or component parts)I would NOT risk my life and would seek out the best quality parts I could find.  To me, the price is inconsequential when it comes to my life!Larry HurshThe Pennsylvania Dutch have a saying.  It goes like this:  The quality of oats 	
0 	  Quote: 	
		  The Pennsylvania Dutch have a saying.  It goes like this:  The quality of oats 	
1 	


           [quote][b]

_________________
Larry Hursh (N650LM Reserved)

"One rivet at a time......one day at a time.."

CH650 (Converted from CH601XL)
1/2 done with fuselage
will be Corvair Powered

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Fri May 30, 2008 8:53 am Post subject: Re: Zenith-List: XL down - France

Sure, I'd love to know everything about every crash that has ever happened. It is part of the learning experience. Unfortunately in this case I don't see how we are going to find out. First, the accident happened over a year ago. If my assumption about the company is correct they sure as hell aren't going to tell us and probably wouldn't if my assumption is wrong.

 	  craig(at)craigandjean.com wrote: 	
		  Unproven either way. But wouldn't you like to know for sure how the plane

was built and what it was built out of? Or just assume that it isn't

relevant to the planes we are building?



-- Craig



--

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

nyterminat(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri May 30, 2008 10:42 am Post subject: Zenith-List: XL down - France

Acutally there is an article from Chris Heinz in this months Zenith's Newsletter regarding the Florida crash. Zenith is keeping in close contact with the authorities in the investigation and says it will keep builders informed as soon as the cause is pin pointed.

   	  Quote: 	
		   	  Quote: 	
		  --> Zenith601-List message posted by: "Gig Giacona" <wrgiacona(at)gmail.com (wrgiacona(at)gmail.com)>



Sure, I'd love to know everything about every crash that has ever happened. It 

is part of the learning experience. Unfortunately in this case I don't see how 

we are going to find out. First, the accident happened over a year ago. If my 

assumption about the company is correct they sure as hell aren't going to tell 

us and probably wouldn't if my assumption is wrong.



craig(at)craigandjean.com wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Unproven either way. But wouldn't you like to know for sure how the plane

 was built and what it was built out of? Or just assume that it isn't

 relevant to the planes we are building?

 

 -- Craig

	
	

	


 

 

 --

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Fri May 30, 2008 11:09 am Post subject: Re: Zenith-List: XL down - France

Which is all any reasonable person could ask of the Heinz's or any company.



 	  nyterminat(at)aol.com wrote: 	
		  Acutally there is an article from Chris Heinz in this months Zenith's Newsletter regarding the Florida crash. Zenith is keeping in close contact with the authorities in the investigation and says it will keep builders informed as soon as the cause is pin pointed.

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

Larry Hursh

Joined: 16 Feb 2008
Posts: 125
Location: Edwardsburg, MI (near Elkhart, IN)

Posted: Fri May 30, 2008 12:37 pm Post subject: Zenith-List: XL down - France

Could you gentlemen please take this to your other forum?  I'm finding this much too depressing for me (again). 

  

Thanks, 

Larry H 

  

 

         [quote][b]

_________________
Larry Hursh (N650LM Reserved)

"One rivet at a time......one day at a time.."

CH650 (Converted from CH601XL)
1/2 done with fuselage
will be Corvair Powered

cndmovn(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri May 30, 2008 3:03 pm Post subject: Zenith-List: XL down - France

Amen!   Non-constructive, non-beneficial rehash.

On Fri, May 30, 2008 at 4:36 PM, Larry Hursh <skyridersbn(at)yahoo.com (skyridersbn(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:

[quote]  

Could you gentlemen please take this to your other forum?  I'm finding this much too depressing for me (again). 

  

Thanks, 

Larry H 

  

 

          	  Quote: 	
		  

	
[b]

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