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Zenith-List: XL down - France

 
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Aerolitellc(at)aol.com
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PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 10:37 am    Post subject: Zenith-List: XL down - France Reply with quote

http://www.bea-fr.org/docspa/2007/85-k070707/pdf/85-k070707.pdf

Hopefully someone else can translate this better but it sounds like the pilot was at 3,000 feet (at) 112 MPH and began a decent (at) 120 mph and the pilot heard a thud then a snap under his feet then he sees the left wing retreat. He then started to bank and roll and he deployed the BRS chute.

Jeff

Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food.
[quote][b]


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Iberplanes



Joined: 10 Dec 2007
Posts: 174
Location: Igualada - Barcelona - Spain

PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 10:53 am    Post subject: Zenith-List: XL down - France Reply with quote

Sorry, already done on the other list.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ZBAG

Alberto Martin
Iberplanes IGL
http://www.iberplanes.es
Igualada - Barcelona - Espaņa

Translation:

The left wing failed in flight. The cause was determined to be maneuvering
in excess of the aircraft's structural limits. The aircraft was destroyed.

The accident flight was a local flight intended for taking pictures. The
pilot began a descent at 3000 feet and 180 km/hr (97 knots), and as the
speed increased to 200 km/hr (108 knots), he heard a snap and then a banging
under his feet. He pulled on the stick and the left wing folded up until it
touched the canopy. He estimated that he moved the stick through about a
third of its total travel. The aircraft entered a spin (I think - JRM). When
the aircraft was once again level, the pilot fired the BRS and descended
slowly to earth, taking about a minute and touching down with a low vertical
speed.

Examination of the wreckage showed that the left wing root is deformed and
that the spar (? - "longeron", but that has a different meaning to us
English speakers, and one of the latter isn't present in the wing) failed
due to a static upwards force.

The pilot made a habit of flying maneuvers that, while not being aerobatics,
reached an indicated 3 G on a panel-mounted accelerometer. It was not
possible to determine the G forces at the time of the failure because the
accelerometer was reset after the event.

The aircraft is a copy of the Zenair CH601XL. The kit used by the builder is
sold by a Polish manufacturer with no connection to Zenair. Zenair's
documentation, and that furnished by the kit manufacturer, indicate the
flight envelope is limited to -2 and +4 G. The airfoil of this aircraft was
not tested to see if it met the specifications. The aircraft has a Vne of
290 km/h (157 knots).


[quote][b]


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601 XL - Jabiru 3300
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jmaynard



Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 394
Location: Fairmont, MN (FRM)

PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 11:11 am    Post subject: Zenith-List: XL down - France Reply with quote

On Thu, May 29, 2008 at 02:36:43PM -0400, Aerolitellc(at)aol.com wrote:
Quote:
_http://www.bea-fr.org/docspa/2007/85-k070707/pdf/85-k070707.pdf_
(http://www.bea-fr.org/docspa/2007/85-k070707/pdf/85-k070707.pdf)

Hopefully someone else can translate this better

Here's a message I posted to the Zenith Builders Analysis Group list:

I hadn't heard of this one, but while enlightening, it's probably not going
to be definitive.

I used to be fairly fluent in French. I'm not any more, mainly because my
vocabulary's gone poof - and I never had the aviation terms to begin with.
Nevertheless, I was able to make a rough translation:

-----

The left wing failed in flight. The cause was determined to be maneuvering
in excess of the aircraft's structural limits. The aircraft was destroyed.

The accident flight was a local flight intended for taking pictures. The
pilot began a descent at 3000 feet and 180 km/hr (97 knots), and as the
speed increased to 200 km/hr (108 knots), he heard a snap and then a banging
under his feet. He pulled on the stick and the left wing folded up until it
touched the canopy. He estimated that he moved the stick through about a
third of its total travel. The aircraft entered a spin (I think - JRM). When
the aircraft was once again level, the pilot fired the BRS and descended
slowly to earth, taking about a minute and touching down with a low vertical
speed.

Examination of the wreckage showed that the left wing root is deformed and
that the spar (? - "longeron", but that has a different meaning to us
English speakers, and one of the latter isn't present in the wing) failed
due to a static upwards force.

The pilot made a habit of flying maneuvers that, while not being aerobatics,
reached an indicated 3 G on a panel-mounted accelerometer. It was not
possible to determine the G forces at the time of the failure because the
accelerometer was reset after the event.

The aircraft is a copy of the Zenair CH601XL. The kit used by the builder is
sold by a Polish manufacturer with no connection to Zenair. Zenair's
documentation, and that furnished by the kit manufacturer, indicate the
flight envelope is limited to -2 and +4 G. The airfoil of this aircraft was
not tested to see if it met the specifications. The aircraft has a Vne of
290 km/h (157 knots).

-----

Sounds like the guy routinely overstressed his airframe, and it came back to
haunt him.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 10 June)


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AMD Zodiac XLi N55ZC
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ashontz



Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 12:24 pm    Post subject: Re: Zenith-List: XL down - France Reply with quote

How did he exceed the limitations of the flight envelope? He was going 97kts, then went into a shallow dive, accelerated to 108kts and heard a pop, THEN, he pulled back on the stick 1/3. If that in fact is the case, that 'manuever' doesn't sound hairy at all.

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ashontz



Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 12:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Zenith-List: XL down - France Reply with quote

Sounds like the guy routinely overstressed his airframe, and it came back to
haunt him.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 10 June)[/quote]

Then again, this could well be the case too. We throw these G numbers around here all the time, after awhile it doesn't carry the same impact as it used to. If your average non-pilot human regualrly wore a G meter all their life, that G meter would probably never even come close to 2.2 their entire life. Smile


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ggower_99(at)yahoo.com
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PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 3:42 pm    Post subject: Zenith-List: XL down - France Reply with quote

Yes, but most important, was not a Zenithair airplane at all... Was a Copy-Clone, so there is no control over the materials used.... This company just makes "his" kits, nothing to do with Zenith aircraft Co..

Gary Gower

Aerolitellc(at)aol.com wrote:
[quote] http://www.bea-fr.org/docspa/2007/85-k070707/pdf/85-k070707.pdf

Hopefully someone else can translate this better but it sounds like the pilot was at 3,000 feet (at) 112 MPH and began a decent (at) 120 mph and the pilot heard a thud then a snap under his feet then he sees the left wing retreat. He then started [quote][b]


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craig(at)craigandjean.com
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PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 3:52 pm    Post subject: Zenith-List: XL down - France Reply with quote

But if they followed the plans and used the correct materials then they are no different than a scratch builder and the cause of failure is still of great interest.

-- Craig

From: owner-zenith601-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Gower
Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2008 5:42 PM
To: zenith601-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: Zenith-List: XL down - France


Yes, but most important, was not a Zenithair airplane at all... Was a Copy-Clone, so there is no control over the materials used.... This company just makes "his" kits, nothing to do with Zenith aircraft Co..



Gary Gower

Aerolitellc(at)aol.com wrote:
[quote]
http://www.bea-fr.org/docspa/2007/85-k070707/pdf/85-k070707.pdf



Hopefully someone else can translate this better but it sounds like the pilot was at 3,000 feet (at) 112 MPH and began a decent (at) 120 mph and the pilot heard a thud then a snap under his feet then he sees the left wing retreat. He then started
Quote:
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Gig Giacona



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 3:57 pm    Post subject: Re: Zenith-List: XL down - France Reply with quote

That's a BIG if Craig. Companies that would pirate and sell another companies design would most likely cut other corners.
craig(at)craigandjean.com wrote:
But if they followed the plans and used the correct materials then they are no different than a scratch builder and the cause of failure is still of great interest.

-- Craig


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601XL Under Construction
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craig(at)craigandjean.com
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PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 4:07 pm    Post subject: Zenith-List: XL down - France Reply with quote

Unproven either way. But wouldn't you like to know for sure how the plane
was built and what it was built out of? Or just assume that it isn't
relevant to the planes we are building?

-- Craig

--


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Jaybannist(at)cs.com
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PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 4:30 pm    Post subject: Zenith-List: XL down - France Reply with quote

But IF a frog had wings, he wouldn't bump his butt every time he jumped.

Jay in Dallas
Do not archive
"Craig Payne" <craig(at)craigandjean.com> wrote:

Quote:
But if they followed the plans and used the correct materials then they are
no different than a scratch builder and the cause of failure is still of
great interest.



-- Craig



From: owner-zenith601-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Gower
Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2008 5:42 PM
To: zenith601-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: Zenith-List: XL down - France



Yes, but most important, was not a Zenithair airplane at all... Was a
Copy-Clone, so there is no control over the materials used.... This
company just makes "his" kits, nothing to do with Zenith aircraft Co..



Gary Gower

Aerolitellc(at)aol.com wrote:

http://www.bea-fr.org/docspa/2007/85-k070707/pdf/85-k070707.pdf



Hopefully someone else can translate this better but it sounds like the
pilot was at 3,000 feet (at) 112 MPH and began a decent (at) 120 mph and the pilot
heard a thud then a snap under his feet then he sees the left wing retreat.
He then started






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ggower_99(at)yahoo.com
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PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 4:51 pm    Post subject: Zenith-List: XL down - France Reply with quote

Yes, There is something that we have learned (in the manufacturing business), that if anyone wants to compete in prices with a much lower production volume, the only way out is lowering labor and the material quality... This is World Wide in any type of manufacturing, no big surprise for any of us. No saying that this was this particular cause...
Do not archive.



Gig Giacona <wrgiacona(at)gmail.com> wrote:
[quote]--> Zenith601-List message posted by: "Gig Giacona"

That's a BIG if Craig. Companies that would pirate and sell another companies design would most likely cut other corners.

craig(at)craigandjean.com wrote:
[quote] But if they followed the plans and used the correct materials then [quote][b]


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ggower_99(at)yahoo.com
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PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 4:53 pm    Post subject: Zenith-List: XL down - France Reply with quote

Sure, this is why we all are waiting for the investigation(s) results: Facts...

Do ntot archive

Craig Payne <craig(at)craigandjean.com> wrote:
[quote]--> Zenith601-List message posted by: "Craig Payne"

Unproven either way. But wouldn't you like to know for sure how the plane
was built and what it was built out of? Or just assume that it isn't
relevant to the planes we are building?

-- Craig

--


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ashontz



Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 4:58 pm    Post subject: Re: Zenith-List: XL down - France Reply with quote

Let's say the design was identical, but the materials weren't wouldn't that then show the weak spots in the design?

Gig Giacona wrote:
That's a BIG if Craig. Companies that would pirate and sell another companies design would most likely cut other corners.
craig(at)craigandjean.com wrote:
But if they followed the plans and used the correct materials then they are no different than a scratch builder and the cause of failure is still of great interest.

-- Craig


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ter_turn(at)yahoo.com
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PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 5:18 pm    Post subject: Zenith-List: XL down - France Reply with quote

If the plane is in fact built to Zenith Specs. then the manner of the failure is of interest to us A wing failing in mid-air and the pilot still able to save the rest of the airframe may provide us with some answers we've all been waiting for.I hope we'll be able to get access to the accident report.

Do not archive

Terry Turnquist
601-XL Plans
St. Peters MO

Gary Gower <ggower_99(at)yahoo.com> wrote:[quote] Sure, this is why we all are waiting for the investigation(s) results: Facts...

Do ntot archive

Craig Payne <craig(at)craigandjean.com> wrote:
[quote]--> Zenith601-List message posted by: "Craig Payne"

Unproven either [quote][b]


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Larry Hursh



Joined: 16 Feb 2008
Posts: 125
Location: Edwardsburg, MI (near Elkhart, IN)

PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 3:22 am    Post subject: Zenith-List: XL down - France Reply with quote

Quote:
Quote:
Zenith601-List message posted by: "Gig Giacona"
<wrgiacona(at)gmail.com>

That's a BIG if Craig. Companies that would pirate and sell another
companies design would most likely cut other corners.

Gig,The Pennsylvania Dutch have a saying. It goes like this: The quality of oats Is dependent on the price you pay for them. Sure, you can buy a cheaper costing oat, but it will AFTER the horse. In other words, quality and price of goods DO go hand in hand. If you buysomething cheap, you should expect something inferior. It will all dependon your application of use. In the case of buying an aircraft (or component parts)I would NOT risk my life and would seek out the best quality parts I could find. To me, the price is inconsequential when it comes to my life!Larry HurshThe Pennsylvania Dutch have a saying. It goes like this: The quality of oats
0
Quote:
The Pennsylvania Dutch have a saying. It goes like this: The quality of oats
1

[quote][b]


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Gig Giacona



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 8:53 am    Post subject: Re: Zenith-List: XL down - France Reply with quote

Sure, I'd love to know everything about every crash that has ever happened. It is part of the learning experience. Unfortunately in this case I don't see how we are going to find out. First, the accident happened over a year ago. If my assumption about the company is correct they sure as hell aren't going to tell us and probably wouldn't if my assumption is wrong.
craig(at)craigandjean.com wrote:
Unproven either way. But wouldn't you like to know for sure how the plane
was built and what it was built out of? Or just assume that it isn't
relevant to the planes we are building?

-- Craig

--


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PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 10:42 am    Post subject: Zenith-List: XL down - France Reply with quote

Acutally there is an article from Chris Heinz in this months Zenith's Newsletter regarding the Florida crash. Zenith is keeping in close contact with the authorities in the investigation and says it will keep builders informed as soon as the cause is pin pointed.
Quote:
Quote:
--> Zenith601-List message posted by: "Gig Giacona" <wrgiacona(at)gmail.com (wrgiacona(at)gmail.com)>

Sure, I'd love to know everything about every crash that has ever happened. It
is part of the learning experience. Unfortunately in this case I don't see how
we are going to find out. First, the accident happened over a year ago. If my
assumption about the company is correct they sure as hell aren't going to tell
us and probably wouldn't if my assumption is wrong.

craig(at)craigandjean.com wrote:
Quote:
Unproven either way. But wouldn't you like to know for sure how the plane
was built and what it was built out of? Or just assume that it isn't
relevant to the planes we are building?

-- Craig



--


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Gig Giacona



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 11:09 am    Post subject: Re: Zenith-List: XL down - France Reply with quote

Which is all any reasonable person could ask of the Heinz's or any company.

nyterminat(at)aol.com wrote:
Acutally there is an article from Chris Heinz in this months Zenith's Newsletter regarding the Florida crash. Zenith is keeping in close contact with the authorities in the investigation and says it will keep builders informed as soon as the cause is pin pointed.


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Larry Hursh



Joined: 16 Feb 2008
Posts: 125
Location: Edwardsburg, MI (near Elkhart, IN)

PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 12:37 pm    Post subject: Zenith-List: XL down - France Reply with quote

Could you gentlemen please take this to your other forum? I'm finding this much too depressing for me (again).

Thanks,
Larry H


[quote][b]


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PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 3:03 pm    Post subject: Zenith-List: XL down - France Reply with quote

Amen! Non-constructive, non-beneficial rehash.
On Fri, May 30, 2008 at 4:36 PM, Larry Hursh <skyridersbn(at)yahoo.com (skyridersbn(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:
[quote]
Could you gentlemen please take this to your other forum? I'm finding this much too depressing for me (again).

Thanks,
Larry H


Quote:

[b]


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