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Aileron Balance Video

 
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moorecomp



Joined: 14 Aug 2006
Posts: 32

PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2008 10:38 am    Post subject: Aileron Balance Video Reply with quote

For all interested in aileron balance, I see this was just posted on youtube from Airfox.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_D4bt0guvM

Best regards,

Craig Moore A&P
Mancelona, MI
do not archive


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ashontz



Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 3:14 am    Post subject: Re: Aileron Balance Video Reply with quote

Thanks, this is nearly identical to the design I came up with, except on the XL, the mount would have to be on the next aileron rib in from the end because the outside aileron rib is on an angle and is the end of the aileron/wing.

The thing is, from what I'm reading is that there seems to be a range of how far forward of the hinge line the balance can go. Disregarding the fact that this counterweight needs to fit inside the wing, this aileron could be balanced with a 16 ounce weight another foot forward and still balance the aileron, but would a lighter weight on a longer moment arm cause a problem (actually induce flutter rather than suppress it), and conversely would too heavy of a weight closer to the hinge cause a problem?

If someone could find recommended distance forward of the hinge that would be nice. I suspect that info may need to be gleaned in a wind-tunnel.

Sorry, I just noticed this was in fact a 601XL, Airfox threw me off and I'm thinking Kit Fox. I guess this 601XL has different wing tips. Anyway, can we get some more info on this, measurements, weights etc...? Has this been tested in flight? Being that I'm going with the standard plans wingtips I was going to do this same deal on the next aileron rib in from the end.

moorecomp wrote:
For all interested in aileron balance, I see this was just posted on youtube from Airfox.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_D4bt0guvM

Best regards,

Craig Moore A&P
Mancelona, MI
do not archive


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PatrickW



Joined: 27 Oct 2006
Posts: 380
Location: Fort Worth, Texas

PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 3:52 am    Post subject: Re: Aileron Balance Video Reply with quote

HOW TO MASS BALANCE CONTROL SURFACES
By Tony Bingelis

http://www.fly-imaa.org/imaa/hfarticles/howto/v6-1-36.html

Tony Bingelis wrote:
However, and of this you may be sure, regardless of whether your plans require mass balancing of one or more control surfaces, you will never be sure they are flutter-free until they have been tested in flight - for that tendency.


- Pat


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jmaynard



Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 394
Location: Fairmont, MN (FRM)

PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 3:53 am    Post subject: Aileron Balance Video Reply with quote

moorecomp wrote:
Quote:
For all interested in aileron balance, I see this was just posted on
youtube from Airfox.

Looking at that raises a basic question, for me. All of the discussions I've
seen on flutter and control surface balance say that the control surface
should balance on the hinge when removed from the aircraft. If the hinge is
at the frontmost point on the part, though, how is this accomplished? Is
there a weight on the XL aileron sticking forward? I don't recall seeing
one...
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
http://www.hercules-390.org (Yes, that's me!)
Buy Hercules stuff at http://www.cafepress.com/hercules-390


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PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 4:33 am    Post subject: Aileron Balance Video Reply with quote

Jay,

I feel pretty sure that if the XL wing needed aileron balance, Chris Heintz would have included it in the design. He just has too much experience in aircraft design to ignore such a basic issue.

Tony Benglis also said that if you want to add something to your airplane, add lightness. Adding balance weights surely doesn't add lightness. I am absolutely sure that adding that much weight that far out on the wing effects a lot more of the overall structure than just the ailerons. It is potentially dangerous and I wouldn't even begin to consider it.

Jay in Dallas CH 601XL N2630J "Lil Bruiser"
Jay Maynard <jmaynard(at)conmicro.com> wrote:

Quote:


moorecomp wrote:
> For all interested in aileron balance, I see this was just posted on
> youtube from Airfox.

Looking at that raises a basic question, for me. All of the discussions I've
seen on flutter and control surface balance say that the control surface
should balance on the hinge when removed from the aircraft. If the hinge is
at the frontmost point on the part, though, how is this accomplished? Is
there a weight on the XL aileron sticking forward? I don't recall seeing
one...
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
http://www.hercules-390.org (Yes, that's me!)
Buy Hercules stuff at http://www.cafepress.com/hercules-390



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Iberplanes



Joined: 10 Dec 2007
Posts: 174
Location: Igualada - Barcelona - Spain

PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 4:47 am    Post subject: Aileron Balance Video Reply with quote

Hi there ,

Have anyone on the list submitted this modification to ZAC for the proper evaluation of the modification? I would not do any modification to my XL until the factory aprroves such things. Thats my opinion anyway.

Take care,

Alberto Martin
www.iberplanes.es
Igualada - Barcelona - Spain

2008/5/14 PatrickW <pwhoyt(at)yahoo.com (pwhoyt(at)yahoo.com)>:
[quote]--> Zenith601-List message posted by: "PatrickW" <pwhoyt(at)yahoo.com (pwhoyt(at)yahoo.com)>

HOW TO MASS BALANCE CONTROL SURFACES
By Tony Bingelis

http://www.fly-imaa.org/imaa/hfarticles/howto/v6-1-36.html


Tony Bingelis wrote:
> However, and of this you may be sure, regardless of whether your plans require mass balancing of one or more control surfaces, you will never be sure they are flutter-free until they have been tested in flight - for that tendency.


- Pat

--------
Patrick
601XL/Corvair
N63PZ (reserved)




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[b]


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jmaynard



Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 394
Location: Fairmont, MN (FRM)

PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 4:51 am    Post subject: Aileron Balance Video Reply with quote

On Wed, May 14, 2008 at 08:32:05AM -0400, Jaybannist(at)cs.com wrote:
Quote:
I feel pretty sure that if the XL wing needed aileron balance, Chris
Heintz would have included it in the design. He just has too much
experience in aircraft design to ignore such a basic issue.

Okkay, so I'm missing something even more fundamental. I thought balanced
control surfaces were necessary to avoid flutter in the first place. Is this
not the case?

Quote:
Tony Benglis also said that if you want to add something to your airplane,
add lightness. Adding balance weights surely doesn't add lightness. I am
absolutely sure that adding that much weight that far out on the wing
effects a lot more of the overall structure than just the ailerons. It is
potentially dangerous and I wouldn't even begin to consider it.

Well, I'm not in a position to add anything to my Zodiac; the last I heard
(last Friday), it was a pile of parts on the factory floor. Smile Even after I
get it, I'm still not going to do anything of the sort. That's the downside
of buying an SLSA: it's *not* an Experimental, so I can't experiment on it.

If I were in such a position, though, I'd think long and hard before making
a modification of that sort. The effects, as you point out, propagate. I'm
also a fan of Antoine de Saint-Exupery's dictum that "perfection in design
is achieved not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing
left to be taken away".
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June)


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Gig Giacona



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 5:18 am    Post subject: Re: Aileron Balance Video Reply with quote

I totally and fully reject the idea that that dumbbell is needed out on the end of the wing. That looks like a whole hell of a lot of weight way out where it has the most possible effect on the structure.

First, none of the previous 601 designs had a need for it and there has been no mention of flutter with them.

Second, if I thought for a second that CH would have forgotten to include something as large as that then I would scrape my plane and burn the plans.

And finally, isn't the plane in the video one or identical to one that just spun in?


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jmaynard



Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 394
Location: Fairmont, MN (FRM)

PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 5:32 am    Post subject: Aileron Balance Video Reply with quote

On Wed, May 14, 2008 at 06:18:44AM -0700, Gig Giacona wrote:
Quote:
I totally and fully reject the idea that that dumbbell is needed out on
the end of the wing. That looks like a whole hell of a lot of weight way
out where it has the most possible effect on the structure.

True. (Well, I dunno about "a whole lot of weight", but it would seem that
the balance weight would be on the same order of magnitude as the weight of
the aileron itself. How much does the aileron weigh?)

Quote:
First, none of the previous 601 designs had a need for it and there has
been no mention of flutter with them.

Do any of the other 601s have aileron trim? That, it would seem to me, would
substantially increase the weight out at the trailing edge of the aileron,
thus increasing the possibility of flutter.

I'm not suggesting anyone do anything. I'm asking, becuse I honestly don't
know.

Quote:
Second, if I thought for a second that CH would have forgotten to include
something as large as that then I would scrape my plane and burn the
plans.

I think Chris Heintz's track record speaks for itself. Still, there's gotta
be some fire underneath all that smoke.

Quote:
And finally, isn't the plane in the video one or identical to one that
just spun in?

Identical to (as far as we can tell in the video). Different registration
number. That may or may not have been a factor in the accident.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
http://www.hercules-390.org (Yes, that's me!)
Buy Hercules stuff at http://www.cafepress.com/hercules-390


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ashontz



Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 5:48 am    Post subject: Re: Aileron Balance Video Reply with quote

You have to design one, like the Air Fox guy did. His design looks like mine, I'm just wondering about the combination or distance forward and weight. An infinite number of configurations will balance the aileron, I'm concerned about the moment arm length. Which would suppress fletter better, a heavy weight further back, or a lighter weight further forward. In a dynamic situation with air flowing over the aileron I'm sure the weight/moment arm combo is a factor in resonant frequency.

jmaynard wrote:
moorecomp wrote:
Quote:
For all interested in aileron balance, I see this was just posted on
youtube from Airfox.


Looking at that raises a basic question, for me. All of the discussions I've
seen on flutter and control surface balance say that the control surface
should balance on the hinge when removed from the aircraft. If the hinge is
at the frontmost point on the part, though, how is this accomplished? Is
there a weight on the XL aileron sticking forward? I don't recall seeing
one...
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
http://www.hercules-390.org (Yes, that's me!)
Buy Hercules stuff at http://www.cafepress.com/hercules-390


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Iberplanes



Joined: 10 Dec 2007
Posts: 174
Location: Igualada - Barcelona - Spain

PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 7:06 am    Post subject: Aileron Balance Video Reply with quote

Gig,

I absolutely agree on your post. I think this is going too far. Modifications not authorized by the company? Crazy as hell. Weight on the tip of the wing makes a lot of stress to the root attachment.

Take care,

Alberto Martin
www.iberplanes.es
Igualada - Barcelona - Spain

2008/5/14 Gig Giacona <wrgiacona(at)gmail.com (wrgiacona(at)gmail.com)>:
[quote] --> Zenith601-List message posted by: "Gig Giacona" <wrgiacona(at)gmail.com (wrgiacona(at)gmail.com)>

I totally and fully reject the idea that that dumbbell is needed out on the end of the wing. That looks like a whole hell of a lot of weight way out where it has the most possible effect on the structure.

First, none of the previous 601 designs had a need for it and there has been no mention of flutter with them.

Second, if I thought for a second that CH would have forgotten to include something as large as that then I would scrape my plane and burn the plans.

And finally, isn't the plane in the video one or identical to one that just spun in?

--------
W.R. &quot;Gig&quot; Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR




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[b]


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ashontz



Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 7:15 am    Post subject: Re: Aileron Balance Video Reply with quote

Actually, who know whether it needs it or not, but all certified planes are required to have them apparently. Apparently Chris feels it's not needed and he's probably right. Although with the hinged ailerons it may be a good idea.

Gig, a whole lot of weight? There's tons of planes out there flying around with these weights on them.

Jaybannist(at)cs.com wrote:
Jay,

I feel pretty sure that if the XL wing needed aileron balance, Chris Heintz would have included it in the design. He just has too much experience in aircraft design to ignore such a basic issue.

Tony Benglis also said that if you want to add something to your airplane, add lightness. Adding balance weights surely doesn't add lightness. I am absolutely sure that adding that much weight that far out on the wing effects a lot more of the overall structure than just the ailerons. It is potentially dangerous and I wouldn't even begin to consider it.

Jay in Dallas CH 601XL N2630J "Lil Bruiser"
Jay Maynard <jmaynard> wrote:

Quote:


moorecomp wrote:
> For all interested in aileron balance, I see this was just posted on
> youtube from Airfox.

Looking at that raises a basic question, for me. All of the discussions I've
seen on flutter and control surface balance say that the control surface
should balance on the hinge when removed from the aircraft. If the hinge is
at the frontmost point on the part, though, how is this accomplished? Is
there a weight on the XL aileron sticking forward? I don't recall seeing
one...
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
http://www.hercules-390.org (Yes, that's me!)
Buy Hercules stuff at http://www.cafepress.com/hercules-390


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steveadams



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 191

PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 7:17 am    Post subject: Re: Aileron Balance Video Reply with quote

There are many variables here. Usually you balance to a specified attitude or angle compared to the cord line; not all balancing is 100% mass balanced. For a particular design it may be 20%, 50%, 70%, etc. which under dynamic conditions provides the optimal flutter resistance or at least flutter resistance within the aircrafts design performance envelope. Most small aircraft do not undergo wind tunnel testing, it's all theoretical design and then flight test within the performance envelope. So if you don't know the theory, I guess leaves strapping on a chute and putting your ideas to the ultimate test.

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PatrickW



Joined: 27 Oct 2006
Posts: 380
Location: Fort Worth, Texas

PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 7:48 am    Post subject: Re: Aileron Balance Video Reply with quote

steveadams wrote:
I guess leaves strapping on a chute and putting your ideas to the ultimate test.

When it comes right down to it, that is exactly what we who are involved in experimental aviation are doing.

At least those of us with parachutes or BRS's....

- Pat


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PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 8:49 am    Post subject: Aileron Balance Video Reply with quote

do not archive

weight at the tip is adding load to the root only on the ground. In flight it is sort of like span loading.

Iberplanes IGL <iberplanes(at)gmail.com> wrote:[quote] Gig,

I absolutely agree on your post. I think this is going too far. Modifications not authorized by the company? Crazy as hell. Weight on the tip of the wing makes a lot of stress to the root attachment.

Take care,

Alberto Martin
www.iberplanes.es
Igualada - Barcelona - Spain

2008/5/14 Gig Giacona <wrgiacona(at)gmail.com (wrgiacona(at)gmail.com)>:
[quote] --> Zenith601-List message posted by: "Gig Giacona" <wrgiacona(at)gmail.com (wrgiacona(at)gmail.com)>

I totally and fully reject the idea that that dumbbell is needed out on the end of the wing. That looks like a whole hell of a lot of weight way out where it has the most possible effect on the structure.

First, none of the previous 601 designs had a need for it and there has been no mention of flutter with them.

Second, if I thought for a second that CH would have forgotten to include something as large as that then I would scrape my plane and burn the plans.

And finally, isn't the plane in the video one or identical to one that just spun in?

--------
W.R. &quot;Gig&quot; Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR




Read this topic online here:


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PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 9:31 am    Post subject: Aileron Balance Video Reply with quote

Hello Jay,

I also remember reading from Graham Lee + The designer of the Nieuport 11 Replica this:

"To an airplane only add Lightness and Simplicity"

I have one sign of this (betwen several) in my shop in big letters.

Another one I like very much is (translated in my english):
"The time used in doing the things right is never a lost of time".

Saludos
Gary Gower.
Do not archive.

Jaybannist(at)cs.com wrote:
[quote]--> Zenith601-List message posted by: Jaybannist(at)cs.com

Jay,

I feel pretty sure that if the XL wing needed aileron balance, Chris Heintz would have included it in the design. He just has too much experience in aircraft design to ignore such a basic issue.

Tony Benglis also said that if you want to add something to your airplane, add lightness. Adding balance weights surely doesn't add lightness. I am absolutely sure that adding that much weight that far out on the wing effects a lot more of the overall structure than just the ailerons. It is potentially dangerous and I wouldn't even begin to consider it.

Jay in Dallas CH 601XL N2630J "Lil Bruiser"
Jay Maynard wrote:

[quote]--> Zenith601-List message posted by: Jay Maynard

moorecomp wrote:
> For all interested in aileron balance, I see this was just posted on
> youtube from Airfox.

Looking at that raises a basic question, for me. All of the discussions I've
seen on flutter and control surface balance say that the control surface
should balance on the hinge [quote][b]


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Terry Phillips



Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 346
Location: Corvallis, MT

PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 9:45 am    Post subject: Aileron Balance Video Reply with quote

Thanks for the reference, Pat. If you follow that link up a couple of
levels, there are links to quite a few interesting articles. see

http://www.fly-imaa.org/imaa/hfarticles/

Many of the links on that page ending with .html take you to lists of some
of the various articles.

Meanwhile, Bingelis' book, "Sportplane Construction Techniques" (I got mine
from the EAA) has the balance article plus lots of other Bingelis articles,
including "push-pull tube connections," "control cables," etc. I put the
Bingelis 4 book collection on my Christmas list. It has proven to be a good
collection of building hints.

Terry
do not archive

At 04:52 AM 5/14/2008 -0700, you wrote:
Quote:
HOW TO MASS BALANCE CONTROL SURFACES
By Tony Bingelis

http://www.fly-imaa.org/imaa/hfarticles/howto/v6-1-36.html
Tony Bingelis wrote:
> However, and of this you may be sure, regardless of whether your plans
require mass balancing of one or more control surfaces, you will never be
sure they are flutter-free until they have been tested in flight - for
that tendency.
- Pat

--------
Patrick
601XL/Corvair
N63PZ (reserved)


Terry Phillips
ttp44~at~rkymtn.net
Corvallis MT
601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail, flaps, & ailerons
are done; working on the wings
http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/


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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 3:02 pm    Post subject: Aileron Balance Video Reply with quote

"Working from a good set of plans helps resolve the dilemma. The designer will have already investigated and eliminated the problem in the construction and subsequent flight test evaluations of the prototype "

While you are pondering this statement from the article, and the further statement that many airplanes do not have balanced control surfaces- please also consider how you are going to evaluate the torsional effects of placing these weights on one end of the aileron- i.e. the twist that will be placed on the aileron at speed; and whether or not the end ribs in the aileron will withstand those stresses as they were clearly not designed to handle either or both of them in this airpalne.

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