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Strange people behavior in debate

 
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gmcjetpilot(at)yahoo.com
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 1:22 pm    Post subject: Strange people behavior in debate Reply with quote

I don't know about tirade, may be helpful tirade. Its no
different in tone or content than anything Bob writes. If you are
mad that I disagree than that is ridiculous, OK. Get over it, please Smile


If I say something improper, not true or unfair, than point out a
specific thing I said. I'll apologize if I said something wrong. I feel
I said nothing wrong, except to disagree with the Bob N, which is a
crime?

Any *specific* comment where I said something NOT true? Speak up.


Try reading what I write with a smile on your face and in good
humor, because that is the way I write it. Smile Think of it as a light
hearted comments with a smile and friendly suggestions.


I don't understand 90% of what Bob writes sometimes. It makes
no sense, and I mean it. Sorry? It is true. You translate some of the
comments he makes. I am not alone on this either folks. This is
not to be hurtful. Bob talks about REAL engineers, he saved the day
stories, strange analogies and phrases (bucket of bullets) and all
kind of weird stuff I don't understand not related to the topic. I don't
think I am alone here?


Besides the I-VR, the other RED flag topic is ENGINEERS.
Somehow he loves to make comments how he and only he
showed some engineers why something was wrong. OK. I find
that arrogant. If you did not know it, this list HATES engineers? Why?


I am laughing. No one is perfect, especially me, but if you want a
tirade, I learned it from Bob N. ; -) *Is that enough emoticons?*


For gosh darn sakes, lighten up folks. It is suppose to be fun. This
is just an alternator. Get perspective. Do what ever you want. This
is America I can say what I want as long as it is not intended to
damage. You all have thin skin. I have help many, look at that.


Sometimes the emperor has no clothes and its OK to say, HEY
you're naked. Some how Bob makes everything personal, and
disagreeing is an insult. He especially sees RED when it involves
I-VR's.

Let me do a little bragging like Bob does. Wink lol , hahahaha

Since I have started my (helpful) tirades on this list there's NOW open
dialog on the topic, more people willing to make comments on their I-
VR.
People where afraid to EVEN admit they used an I-VR before.
Many useful details about wiring, operation and maintenance
have been discussed in the last year. I had something to to do with it.
Biggest improvement? Problems are now reported accurately.
Before every problem big or small was OH MY this GUY had smoke
and $30,000 dollars of damage from a ND alternator! Yea RIGHT.


Now a REALITY check (we now know the above is not true)


Read everything Bob has written you will find Bob's not a fan of
I-VR alternators and does not recommend using them. He will play
along, but his heart is not into it, OK. That is cool. Bob does
not support or know much about I-VR's by his own admission.


Bob has no incentive or desire to really promote and understand I-
VR alternators. If he did he would have tested them by now. Look
at the Plane Power Guy, he put effort into it, produces an I-VR's
with a self contained crow-bar. Brilliant. Of course he charges
a lot for his alternators, but theres NO reason we can not
modify our stock alternators the same way. Would Bob lead
the effort? (NO) Why? It would take business away from his
buddies at B&C. We all understand that and that is cool.

(NONE OF THE ABOVE IS BAD, I AM OK WITH ALL OF IT)
(AND IF I AM WRONG SHOW ME WHERE I AM WORNG?)
(I DO MAKE conjecture, but come on, you all know its true.)


When I say WE, who is WE? Well it is not YOU. Smile

There are lots of people who use I-VR alternators with no add on
OV protection. If that is YOU than you are part of We or Us.
If this does not describe YOU, than you are not part of the group.
Don't YOU be so presumptuous in thinking I was talking about
you. YOU know who YOU are. Wink (am I emoticon-ing enough?)


I do speak for a LARGE group. The group thinks that I-VR are
safe and can be used with out all the sensational, Oh My Gosh OV
stories. In a year and 1/2, the only OV reported were below 16
to 18 volts!!! Many times they where precipitated by the pilot doing
something dumb like turning the alternator OFF/ON under load. FACT


LAST OF MY (helpful) TIRADES

There are FOUR things Bob recommends, which are fine for an
E-VR, but are counter to safe, efficient use of an I-VR:

*Crow-Bar and OV relay: This violates all the
warnings the alternator manufacture recommends, ie do not
disconnect the b-lead from the battery. I take warnings to heart
and try not to out think it. IT SAY NO B-lead disconnect.

*Cooling Air- Bob says NO, but that is for alternators with NO I-
VR. Fact electronics like to be cool for longer life and greater
reliability.

*Warning Light- Bob attacks the (I-VR internal) warning light and
never mentioned it. OK I'll do some boasting. I am the only one that
promoted and recommended its use. Bob was typically negative
and said it would not work if the VR failed. WRONG (his bius showing)

*Fuse on B-Lead- A CB on this lead is important. Not as
important for an E-VR. I suppose a crow-bar OV relay is a
substitute for a CB you can manually trip. However item (1) is
don't use a crow bar OV relay. Fuses are great in the right
place.


So back off and have a beer and cool down you ALL. Lol, ha ha,
Smile and think of all the happy friendly emoticons you can.


I am not going to let bullies bully me. OK. I am gathering just
arguing my point passionately and not agreeing with Bob N.
is my biggest crime.

I am not naive, this is BOB's LIST. Its unfortunate its named
after Bob's company. We don't need to change the name,
just the attitude; all opinions, even non-aeroelectrical opinions are
welcomed. If Bob or the list thinks that open discussion is
welcomed they are not being honest.

We have the 1000lb Gorilla in the corner.
Bring the banana and say nice monkey, all is well.
Let the monkey throw poo on you and say nothing or else.
Yell at the poo throwing monkey, you will get ripped apart.

(Oh no! NOW I'M COMING UP WITH LAME analogies :-0
Bob is rubbing off on me. Smile ha ha ha, but mine make sense. Smile


LoL, ha ha ha, Take care all.
(I am done with this topic)
(fight amongst yourself)

Cheers George





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BPA(at)bpaengines.com
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 2:02 pm    Post subject: Strange people behavior in debate Reply with quote

What?

Oh yeah, do not archive Smile

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fvalarm(at)rapidnet.net
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 3:00 pm    Post subject: Strange people behavior in debate Reply with quote

George wrote:


"Do what ever you want. This
is America I can say what I want as long as it is not intended to
damage."

I'm trying to learn about aircraft electrical systems here and am quite
tired with the personality conflicts. This is Bob's list. Therefore his
personality rules if there is a conflict. If you cant' handle it, you can
opt out. I hope you stay. I'm hanging in because there still are some
nuggets to be discovered.

My beef with what you just said is the part about "this is "America". It is
not just America. I am not in America. This forum is conducted on a venue
made available by the "Wide World Web" (its international folks) and as such
we all should be on our best behaviour. It's a type of world stage. The
rest of the world is watching, listening, participating and comments like
this serves to re-enforce one unfortunate world view that "Americans" are
"arrogant". It IS damaging to the USA. We should have a heart of
thankfulness and remember that we are very blessed to be able to afford,
build and fly such aircraft. OBAM/experimental people are located all over
the world, not just in America, and yes we all use the WWW too. Let's help
each other out as best we can. Most are not as fortunate as we are.

Now back to electrical systems please.

Feeling fortunate to be living during such an amazing time in history and
able to participate in OBAM.
Bevan
RV7A

DO NOT ARCHIVE


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nuckollsr(at)cox.net
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 2:04 am    Post subject: Strange people behavior in debate Reply with quote

At 01:06 PM 3/2/2006 -0800, you wrote:

Quote:


Any *specific* comment where I said something NOT true? Speak up.


Okay . . .

Quote:
Read everything Bob has written you will find Bob's not a fan of
I-VR alternators and does not recommend using them. He will play
along, but his heart is not into it, OK. That is cool. Bob does
not support or know much about I-VR's by his own admission.

Not true: This isn't about being a "fan" of anything. The aviation
community both commercial and military have adopted design
goals that I as supplier to those industries am expected
to meet. If a customer walks in the door looking to purchase
apples, you don't try to sell them oranges.

Quote:
Bob has no incentive or desire to really promote and understand I-
VR alternators. If he did he would have tested them by now. Look
at the Plane Power Guy, he put effort into it, produces an I-VR's
with a self contained crow-bar. Brilliant. Of course he charges
a lot for his alternators, but theres NO reason we can not
modify our stock alternators the same way. Would Bob lead
the effort? (NO) Why? It would take business away from his
buddies at B&C. We all understand that and that is cool.


Not true: Since day-one, I've said that I cannot recommend
the IR alternator because I could deduce no way to incorporate
them into systems that comply with the design goals I've
cited many times: Ability to turn ON/OFF at will without
regard to operating conditions and free of concerns for
damage to the alternator or other equipment.

You accuse me of distorting science as a means to
protect the financial well being of B&C? Shame on you
sir! I AM testing some alternators to confirm the
design parameters under which some new products will
be offered that meet the design goals cited.

Quote:
There are lots of people who use I-VR alternators with no add on
OV protection. If that is YOU than you are part of We or Us.
If this does not describe YOU, than you are not part of the group.
Don't YOU be so presumptuous in thinking I was talking about
you. YOU know who YOU are. Wink (am I emoticon-ing enough?)

Not true: There are people who don't wear helmets while riding
motorcycles and others who do not wear seat belts
while driving . . . and the vast majority of those
individuals are alive and well today. But at the next
roll of the dice . . .

OV protection has been a part of engine driven power
sources in aircraft (and other $high$ systems) for
decades. This is because the risk of OV events is not
zero. The vast majority of those who fly without it
are no different than those who choose not to incorporate
risk mitigation activities in their cars or on their
motorcycles. They makes their choices and they takes
their chances. Please don't paint me as the heretic because
I don't RECOMMEND them in their current form.

Folks building OBAM airplanes may do as they wish based on
any logic that pleases them. When asked, I've only
explained my design decisions and recommendations based
on design goals established by the customers who
have seen fit to help me raise two families and pay my bills.

If folks here on the List find the work products of other
suppliers attractive, I would not discourage their use
except when they're not supported by common sense.

For example, the EXP-Bus probably performs exactly
as advertised and I perceive no safety issues. The common
sense question here is, "what are you getting for your
$time$ and are there alternative solutions with attractive
features." But to suggest that I would beat up on anyone
for installing an EXP-Bus or a stock IR alternator is
contrary to fact.

Quote:

I do speak for a LARGE group. The group thinks that I-VR are
safe and can be used with out all the sensational, Oh My Gosh OV
stories. In a year and 1/2, the only OV reported were below 16
to 18 volts!!! Many times they where precipitated by the pilot doing
something dumb like turning the alternator OFF/ON under load. FACT

Not true. One individual of several reported voltmeter readings
that may in fact have pegged the instrument. Given the damage
to his battery, it's the opinion of myself and others that
the alternator suffered lost of voltage and was only limited
in output current by the magnetics of the device.

Others have reported alternator failures that produced
damage to avionics. I did not embellish those reports.
To brush them aside as overblown or misinterpreted
is tantamount to saying those victims are dishonest
and that I'm dishonest for promoting automatic protection
that has been a standard of the industry for decades.

Quote:

*Crow-Bar and OV relay: This violates all the
warnings the alternator manufacture recommends, ie do not
disconnect the b-lead from the battery. I take warnings to heart
and try not to out think it. IT SAY NO B-lead disconnect.

Not true: B-lead disconnection under certain circumstances has been
shown to be hazardous to the alternator (for reasons we're
going to explore in the regulator trade-study paper). This
is a byproduct of a system installed with the intent of
providing OV protection for the rest of the airplane . . . I
did not even consider risks to the alternator itself. My bad.
This is why Z-24 was TEMPORARILY withdrawn until more suitable
techniques can be crafted.

Quote:

*Cooling Air- Bob says NO, but that is for alternators with NO I-
VR. Fact electronics like to be cool for longer life and greater
reliability.

Not true. I have never said that it was bad to cool any
device but at the same time, it's useful to know when
cooling is useful or necessary. The alternators for which
I have the most experience are externally regulated and
therefore do not contain devices common to internally
regulated alternators. If you're suggesting that the
IR alternator will always benefit from cooling air because
it incorporates the relatively fragile regulator, I cannot
dispute it.

My advice for cooling decisions has always been to consider
how many builders before us have suffered failures properly
attributed to lack of cooling. When in doubt, thermocouple
studies of the installed alternator are always in order.
Measurements trump conjecture any day.

I've never seen a blast tube installed on an automobile's
alternator so I've assumed that these devices were as robust
after regulators went inside as they were when regulators
were outside. I.e. I have no compelling observations to suggest
we have extraordinary concerns for cooling . . . for EITHER
style of machine. If you have data suggesting something
else, please share it with us.

Quote:

*Warning Light- Bob attacks the (I-VR internal) warning light and
never mentioned it. OK I'll do some boasting. I am the only one that
promoted and recommended its use. Bob was typically negative
and said it would not work if the VR failed. WRONG (his bius showing)

Not true. As the regulator trade study will show, the warning light
system built into the internal regulator is on the same
chunk of silicon as regulator controls and other features.
I have not "attacked" it, only suggested that stresses that
might cause the regulator to misbehave and equally present
for the warning light functions. The design goals for my
other customers called for separation of functionality
between control, indication and protection.

Yes, I have an opinion for the reasons cited. It seems a logical
choice.

Quote:

*Fuse on B-Lead- A CB on this lead is important. Not as
important for an E-VR. I suppose a crow-bar OV relay is a
substitute for a CB you can manually trip. However item (1) is
don't use a crow bar OV relay. Fuses are great in the right
place.

Note true. There are two different considerations: Fuses protect
wires such that failures in one wire do not propagate
through to other parts of a system. The pullable breaker
for OV protection is the same disconnect mechanism
as a b-lead contactor.

The breaker must be operated manually, the contactor may
be manual or automatic. It was the manual operation of the b-lead
contactor that brought load-dump vulnerabilities of
the IR alternator to light. Those issues will be addressed
and solved. The problem with simply pulling a b-lead breaker
will be the same as with the orignal Z-24 implementation:
Rapidly rising voltage across the contacts may ignite an
arc that won't go out. No big deal in the metal can under
the cowl. Really BIG deal in a plastic housed breaker on the panel.
Further, disconnection of a runaway alternator will protect
the rest of the airplane but results in destruction of
the alternator. The field winding for sure is toast. The
diodes are at risk too.

It's better that we figure out a way to bring things
to an orderly, quiet, low energy state such that nothing
burns, the pilot is advised of the need to switch to
Plan-B, and only the failed component need be replaced.

There were advantages cited for getting the b-lead
breaker off the panel. To bring it back into the cockpit
just to allow a pilot to do manual disconnection during
an OV event seems a step backwards when solutions
to protecting the alternator from its own load-dump
are at hand. And this goes back to the originally
stated design goal of carefree ON/OFF control of the
alternator at any time.

(If folks choose to give up this goal in favor of
George's recommendations, please know that you're
still welcome in my house. I have friends and relatives
who don't wear their helmets and seat belts either
but I don't rag them about it . . . and MOST of them
will probably lead happy, injury free lives.)

Quote:

I am not going to let bullies bully me. OK. I am gathering just
arguing my point passionately and not agreeing with Bob N.
is my biggest crime.

Your transgression is the promulgation of bad science based on
faith combined with your accusations of dishonorable behavior
on the part of those who have shared their experiences with
us. I've invited you to join me in an analysis of the
functionality of an exemplar internal regulator. I even
offered to make it a friendly competition.

You reacted by changing the rules of engagement, declaring
me in default under the new rules, claimed victory for
yourself and suggested I write for a mailing address for
the prize. That was pretty amazing . . . the next time
would you do that in slow motion? Perhaps we can see
exactly how the rabbit got into that hat.
Quote:

I am not naive, this is BOB's LIST. Its unfortunate its named
after Bob's company. We don't need to change the name,
just the attitude; all opinions, even non-aeroelectrical opinions are
welcomed. If Bob or the list thinks that open discussion is
welcomed they are not being honest.

Isn't that what we're doing now?

Quote:

We have the 1000lb Gorilla in the corner.
Bring the banana and say nice monkey, all is well.
Let the monkey throw poo on you and say nothing or else.
Yell at the poo throwing monkey, you will get ripped apart.

Not true: I've never ripped anyone. I've only offered alternative
views along with the simple-ideas that supported them.
When you could not respond in kind, you pointed fingers,
yelled unkindly things, and accused me and others of dishonorable
behavior. Your true colors have been enshrined in the archives
forever. You paint my behavior as trying to be king of the
sandbox but you're the only one throwing sand. My mother
would ban kids from the sandbox for throwing sand.

Invitation to debate: Please describe for us your
interpretation of the warning/protective features in the
MC33092 regulator chip and how well they conform to
the classic aircraft systems design goals. If not, what
goals should replace them?

Bob . . .


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 8:24 am    Post subject: Strange people behavior in debate Reply with quote

At 04:01 PM 3/2/2006 -0600, you wrote:

[quote]

What?

Oh yeah, do not archive Smile

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Bill Schlatterer



Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 195

PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 3:00 pm    Post subject: Strange people behavior in debate Reply with quote

Bob, I think this is Allen Barrett from Barrett Performance Aircraft
Engines. He's almost as "gold" as you Smile

Bill S
7a wiring

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 2:26 am    Post subject: Strange people behavior in debate Reply with quote

At 04:55 PM 3/3/2006 -0600, you wrote:

Quote:

<billschlatterer(at)sbcglobal.net>

Bob, I think this is Allen Barrett from Barrett Performance Aircraft
Engines. He's almost as "gold" as you Smile

Bill S
7a wiring

Agreed. I got a direct note from him and I'm impressed.
Hope to meet him sometime as Dr. Dee and I pass through
Tulsa several times a year on our way to see friends in
Sallisaw.

Bob . . .


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