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Strange alternator behavior at Startup (BobN)

 
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rshannon(at)cruzcom.com
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 3:17 pm    Post subject: Strange alternator behavior at Startup (BobN) Reply with quote

I'm new to this list, but... the tone of the message below is, IMHO,
appalling. Surely this list is not the place for such hyperbolic
personal attacks. May I also respectfully suggest, gmcpilot, you are a
little presumptuous to claim to speak for "WE builders". You don't speak
for me.

Please lighten up, and keep to technical discussion, without all the
personal invective. That's why most of us subscribe. Thanks.

Ron


gmcjetpilot(at)yahoo.com wrote:
Quote:


>>From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" nuckollsr(at)cox.net
>>Subject: Re: Strange alternator behavior at Startup (BobN)




>AeroElectric-List message posted by: <gmcjetpilot(at)yahoo.com>
>
>Bob, most of what you wrote has nothing to do with the topic?
>
>It is not a debate of IF you should use a I-VR alternator, but I will
>try to address you question, fully knowing you will never be
>satisfied.



>>Bob N wrote
>>If they have understanding to offer, the block diagrams,
>>schematics, test results, etc are in order. That's what I offer and I
>>expect no less.
>>



> Just call them Bob. What's the big deal?


>>Bob you provide a wealth of knowledge and experience. I think

>>we all can say is of immense help and enjoyment to us amateur
>>airplane electricians. Your help to airplane builders in garages
>>and hangers world over is with out dispute. Even if I don't agree
>>with you, that does not mean I don't understand your point or
>>disrespect your accomplishments.

>>You can't have it both ways George. If my experience and

>>accomplishments have value, then there must be some useful
>>application of tools and philosophies upon which those
>>accomplishments are based. In one breath you extol the
>>virtues of those accomplishments, and in the next you brush
>>my opinion aside because it does not agree with the one you
>>formed by calling folks on the phone. I talk to lots of people
>>and I read lots of data sheets but these are STARTING places . . .



>>I asked you to help explain the inner workings of an exemplar
>>regulator with a goal of seeing if advertising hype (and the opinions
>>of those you talked to on the phone) have foundation in physics
>>and simple-ideas.



**Bob we have fundamental and philosophical differences. You want to
know the esoteric. I on the other hand want to understand how to install
and operate internally regulated ND alternator by looking at real world
operational issues, we all can learn from. When I say WE, I mean I-VR
alternator users. This is not a debate about I-VR Vs. E-VR, engineers or
spec sheets.

**Only you know what you want to know. A true scientist is unbiased.
You are a smart guy; go figure it out. Get an aftermarket ND I-VR; They
can cost $15-$25. Buy one and test it. Better yet go to the auto store and
buy lester 14684 (aka Vans Alt). Test it. You seem to ask questions for
questions sake. If you read what I have written, than you know how I
recommend to install and use an I-VR. If you want to verify spec sheets,
knock yourself out. DO IT, but stop talking about it.

**You always talk about testing, but you rarely do what you say you
are going to do. I can't count how many times you said, I am going to test
such and such, but your test data never materializes? Just do the research
yourself and stop asking me. OK, thanks. Smile We are all counting on U.

**Some how to make a point, you ask questions that people can not or
need not really answer (to your liking). It's a waste of time. USE DATA
WE HAVE. Trust it or don't trust it, that's your business. The rest of us
want to go fly and learn from other users of alternators with I-VR's.

**The data you want, IF YOU REALLY WANT IT, is out there. I think you
are just blowing smoke Bob. A true scientist or engineer does not need to
be spoon fed info but goes out and gets it. Go get it Bob.


>>After sorting out the sand in data sheets, it's a good idea
>>to hit lab and RUN the thing. It's not common but I've discovered
>>things about people's products that they had no understanding
>>of (and we didn't either until after a few $hundred thousands$
>>went down the tubes in warranty work).


**Agreed, you are smart, spec sheets can be wrong. So?


**Let me tell you where WE, us homebuilders are coming from. WE
want to fly, be safe and have fun. We want a good, inexpensive, reliable,
easily installed alternator that can be replaced anywhere in the country
cheaply with a visit to a local AUTOPART store. Not a custom, esoteric
single source supplier specialty item (B&C). I LOVE that you want to know
the nitty-gritty of a spec sheet verses the real world. GREAT! U-Da-Man! **



**Go get'em Bob. My apathy is not born of ignorance but practicality.
Practically speaking it has worked in my plane and others for 10,000's of
hours with no problem. It has also worked in MILLION'S of cars trucks
and industrial equipment all over the works for over two decades. Test all
you want. I don't need to test a wheel to see if it will roll. I do want to learn
what the best tire pressure is so I can put fill it properly for best service.**


****I understand there are unknowns of the I-VR, but those unknowns are
falling fast as WE, I-VR users talk and compare notes. Understanding the
advantages of the I-VR as well as the limitations is critical. OK. In the
past much IGNORANCE was stated as fact on this list, most if it negative
and faults. This is so anti-scientific I could puke. I am not saying the I-
VR is perfect, the greatest thing since sliced bread BUT lets get real.
THERE ARE REAL ADVANTAGES INSIDE THE I-VR AND IN USING
THEM. The whole industry of small alternators has gone to I-VR.*****



**Lets, understand the real characteristics of the I-VR for airplane
operations, instead of lies & exaggerated OV tales. Understanding the
different ways they might fail and the symptoms prior to failure is what we
NEED. Details about a schematic or how engineers don't know what they
are doing is NOT important, except to you Mr. Bob N. You have a
crusade that you campaign. You also are VERY biased. It gets in the way
of being the teacher, engineer and scientist you fancy yourself as. I still
like you Bob, but you really have PO'ed a few people with this attitude
that WE need to prove things to YOU. Take it or leave it, but leave it alone
if you do not want to pursue it. Prove that is NOT that way. Sue me.


**That is not what WE want. I am sorry. I can't give you the knowledge
you seek oh wise one, this is a journey you must walk alone Sparky.


**This is not a big deal; Its an alternator. NO BIGGIE. There are millions
and millions of these ND alternators all over the world working famously.
They can't be all bad. They DO IN FACT HAVE control and logic
functions. I guess if you want to know the info, it's there. Asking me a
billion times will not change the fact I-VR have some real advantage over
E-VR's. Sorry Bob, Sorry B&C.


>>Real engineering (and teaching) can be accomplished only when

>>the activities are supported by an understanding and artful
>>assemblage of simple-ideas. If you choose to drive your career
>>and tutelage based on telephone conversations and faithful
>>acceptance of bang-for-the-buck-bullets on data sheets, it's
>>your choice - but not mine. What you have accepted and now
>>promote as FACT has yet to be demonstrated.
>>
>>I'll publish the MC33092 trade study to show others on the list
>>how the most successful engineering is conducted. By the way,
>>"work product" is anything which you have created. The trade
>>study will be my work product based on the products of others
>>offered as a potential guide for the future efforts of still
>>more folks. That's what engineers do George . . . make sure
>>all the bits and pieces fit smoothly into the whole.
>>
>>Bob . . .



**Bob N: Sorry, all I got from your above is blaaa blaaa, real engineer,
blaaa, blaaa blaaa, bang-for-the-buck-bullets, blaaa, blaaa , career and
tutelage, blaaa, blaaa blaaa. Whisky Tango Foxtrot! Focus, focus focus
Bob! Stick to the topic, for once.


** I know you are trying to tell me how important this is to you. I BELIEVE
YOU. However my apathy is not for lack of intelligence, education or ability.
Its that I don't care as an end user. Why? Because I have over 1000 hour
of reliable trouble free I-VR experience and my plane is wired so if it does
fail, the chance of causing harm to me or the airframe is S000OOOooo
remote, I can accept it (without a crow bar) using a CB, manually opened.

**With more operational experience of others WE have improved OUR
installation and OUR operational philosophy. My rule is essentially wire
and operate the alternator as if it where in the vehicle it was designed for.
I have some additional recommendations, below as a PS.


**Here are the top of the line CB's for the B-lead disconnect:
http://www.ti.com/snc/products/controls/acb-6752-12.htm
http://www.ti.com/snc/products/controls/acb-6752-1xx.htm


**If you want to look over Nippondenso or Motorola's REAL engineers
who designed the thing in the first place, go for it. I CAN'T tell you how
they design and make an IC chip, like an Intel Pentium chip, but I know
how to write an e-mail and call them and ask how it works. I know the
general theory of semiconductors and silicon wafers, but I don't need to
know everything about every IC to use a computer or alternator. I think
the engineers at these companies know a thing or two about testing Bob.


**I will concede and leave the REAL engineering to you. Good luck. I
suggest you pick up the phone and start to ask people who manufacture
the stuff. They may be able to guide you in a direction that will further
your knowledge. IF YOU DON'T TRY YOU WILL LEARN NOTHING.


**If you have any questions on how the I-VR work and not all the blaaa
blaaa, just ask me Mr. Bob N. I'll try to help you like I help anyone who
has a genuine I-VR question or concern. Again THIS IS NOT about can you,
should you, pros and cons or the I-VR verses E-VR. This is just for
people who USE the gosh darn I-VR. Once YOU understand WE ARE
GOING TO USE IT NO MATTER WHAT YOU SAY, than it'll get
easier for you Bob. Help or get out of the way Sir.


**Bob, please stop asking irrelevant questions for 99.9% of us, the users
of I-VR. We don't want stories or guesses either. The more we talk about
installation issues and REAL operational characteristics the better we will
understand how they work. Does B&C publish the internal design for
YOUR voltage regulator by the way? If so I want a copy. Single point failure?


**As far as COLD temp characteristics, THIS IS INTERESTING. This is
a real world field TEST. I never operated in these temps. So the point,
is this a NORMAL operating characteristics?; Next time anyone fly's
in fringed weather, sees a delay in charge or no charge until a specific
RPM, we know what's going on, good or bad. THAT IS IMPORTANT
and PRACTICAL. Bob, you have to think like a PILOT more on
operational issues, than just the esoterica of an electrical system.

**All the other personal stuff and REAL engineer comments are pointless,
Sparky. Smile I respect your position, I just think it adds no real value unless
you are going to get the first certified I-VR. Being experimental DON'T CARE.


**Take Care George (you owe me a book btw)


**PS some of my personal rules for installing and using a I-VR
alternator: Besides wiring and using the alternator as if it where installed
in the vehicle it was designed for, I recommend cooling air on the VR, no
continuous duty over 75% and pullable CB on panel for B-lead. Also
check or replace brushes every 200 to 500 hours. (I think they cost $1.95
each.) Be sure to use the warning light and remote voltage sense IF IT
HAS ONE. NOT ALL ND alternators have remote sense. Vans 14684
does NOT have remote volt sense. Also don't screw with turning the
alternator ON/OFF while its turning under load. WHY? Because every
guy I know of that does this seems to have problems and it DOES NOT
work that way in a Toyota or Geo Metro. THIS IS NOT ROCKET
SCEINCE. Last and I know this makes Bob mad, don't put an OV relay
and crow-bar unless you are darn sure it will not trip unnecessarily. Since
nuisance trips are hard to guarantee against, I would not do it at all, but
that is an individual choice. ALL manuals for ND alternator installation
say DO NOT operate the alternator with out the battery connected to the
battery. (sorry Paul). An OV relay does just that and can damage the
alternator. Its fine if you actually have an OV, but the chance of a OV that
you can't fix by manual opening of the CB is REAL slim, if you follow basics.




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PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:37 pm    Post subject: Strange alternator behavior at Startup (BobN) Reply with quote

Ron,

This tirade is typical of jmcjetpilot and has been going on for some
time. I don't know where Bob gets the patience. I love good,
productive banter and disagreement. I've been hoping for a new tone
from this poster for too long. I'm not even involved in the
discussion and I've finally had enough and have come to the
conclusion that a new mail filter is going into my mail client that
transfers mail from this poster directly to the trash. It's just not
worth the time.
On Mar 1, 2006, at 3:14 PM, Ron Shannon wrote:

Quote:
I'm new to this list, but... the tone of the message below is, IMHO,
appalling. Surely this list is not the place for such hyperbolic
personal attacks. May I also respectfully suggest, gmcpilot, you are a
little presumptuous to claim to speak for "WE builders". You don't
speak
for me.

Please lighten up, and keep to technical discussion, without all the
personal invective. That's why most of us subscribe. Thanks.

Ron


Best Regards,

Steve


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