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Strange alternator behavior at Startup (Bob N)

 
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gmcjetpilot(at)yahoo.com
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 7:54 pm    Post subject: Strange alternator behavior at Startup (Bob N) Reply with quote

Bob, most of what you wrote has nothing to do with the topic?

It is not a debate of IF you should use a I-VR alternator, but I will
try to address you question, fully knowing you will never be
satisfied.



>Bob N wrote
>If they have understanding to offer, the block diagrams,
Quote:
schematics, test results, etc are in order. That's what I offer and I
expect no less.


Just call them Bob. What's the big deal.

For someone who says the want to understand you come off
as disingenuous when you dont really make and effort.

Did you even try to call Bob? I think you will find it worthwhile. I
cant guarantee they will meet a level of knowledge to satisfy
you. However you only have excuses for not calling. Do you
really want to try to understand, or do you want to posture and
make statements about schematics and repeatable test.

This is about how I-VR works for those who DO use them. Not about
Bob, what Bob does at Beechcraft, certified planes or what you feel
comfortable suggesting in your book. Those who already use an
I-VR want to know how they work; They dont need FAA or your approval
or absolute proof as you do. This is NOT about IF you should use,
only HOW they really work.


>Every simple idea I've had to offer was explained at length, often
Quote:
illustrated and in many cases based on lessons-learned from the past
40 years of cooking (and burning a few fingers) in this particular
kitchen.

For some reason you turn a debate about the functions of an
internal VR into something personal. Nothing personal Bob.

Bob you provide a wealth of knowledge and experience. I think
we all can say is of immense help and enjoyment to us amateur
airplane electricians. Your help to airplane builders in garages
and hangers world over is with out dispute. Even if I dont agree
with you, that does not mean I dont understand your point or
disrespect your accomplishments.
This all came about from a question about strange alternator
operation right after start up. Jon made a reply that I found was
reasonable and true. If you dont believe Jon, me, engineers who
work for a company that makes I-VRs or a technical spec
brochure from Motorola, than what else can I say to you?


I understand your position, but internal voltage regulators DO have
advanced protection, logic and control, FACT. Deal with it, or
otherwise prove they dont work that way.

Call Transpo and talk to an Engineer. No, they will not give you
the keys to the manufacturing plant, but they will be nice and talk
to you (if you are nice as I am sure you would be). Its a 800 number;
what do you have to loose. They are hard to get a hold of
sometimes, but it might be worth it. If that is not good enough,
OK. Then end of subject.

I say try to understand with any and whatever info is available.
Don't believe but dont cast dispersions. I'm guessing you are not
REALLY truly motivated for yourself and just want to cast doubt.



>I wasn't suggesting you should. It was an ILLUSTRATION of
Quote:
just how much we've come to depend on tools (and faith in the
talent of others) that started out with high ideals but failed in the
marketplace. All the analysis in the world does not replace the
repeatable experiment.

Quote:
Unfortunately, there is so much faith in the up-front, computer
aided analysis that we've totally divested ourselves of any kind
of skunk works. At the same time, we're a bit dismayed that
customer aircraft have become IR&D tools for fixing problems
that analysis failed to reveal.

Again interesting but irrelevant.

I feel your lament. Not sure what it has to do with the debate. You
probably are right. America needs more scientist and engineers
researching in labs.

Bob you are skeptical and cynical, that is a great way to be. I
am also skeptical, but I pick my battles. This is not one of them.



Quote:
You seem to think I'm trying to convince you of something . . .
or sell you something. The only reason I offer you anything is as
a courtesy from one engineer to another . . . but gee, without all
the alphabet soup after my name, perhaps my biggest failing is
knowing the right kind of words to use. I'm only trying to share
my experience and observations based on that experience. The
only folks who's approval I MUST have are those who send me
money and expect a fair value in return. Everything else is the
fun of considering simple-ideas . . . . and I DO enjoy it. I'm sorry
if it's upsetting for you.

Ha Ha, you could not upset me, I would not allow it. Further I dont
believe anything you say Bob or anyone says, with out checking it
out to my satisfaction. No offense. I have checked it out, your turn.

I agree you need high standards to give suggestions about a/c wiring.
Again, what does this have to do with I-VR functions? This is not
a debate whether we should use them, just how they work.

As far as words you use, frankly they get in the way sometimes.
There is NO doubt you are trying to share you experience and
it is helpful, but it does always directly translate into what we,
I-VR users need. In fact its mostly counter to what we need.

Also you always seem to have a chip or resentment about
college degrees. Again its NOT about you Bob, its about the
FACTS. Not sticking with the topic is distracting. We are talking
about HOW internal VRs work, that is all, not peace in the
Mid East, not Beechcraft.



Quote:
I AM distressed that you don't seem to grasp what I'm driving at
.> . . a serious failing on my part as a teacher. Hmmmm . . . did

Quote:
you buy a copy of the 'Connection from me? Do you want your
money back?

I am sorry you are distressed, its not your fault teacher; its ok
Bob, I (we) really get it. You want unequivocal proof. I do think with
respect youre hypocritical, because you dont always require the
same level of proof consistently. For some reasons when you hear
something negative about an I-VR alternator you accept it and
NEVER question it. You require no proof or details. Why? You
loose credibility when you are not fair and consistent.

Bottom line is NOT everyone agrees with you. That is also ok, but
sadly many times you automatically assume that disagreeing with
you means the other party does not understand. I understand you
Mr. Bob N. I have run across guys like you a dozen times in my
career and appreciate your mind set and perspective, but I
respectfully dont agree and find it negative, not helpful sometimes.

Just to say prove it or info is hard to get does not make it
true or false. Someone out there has the details that you want.
You wont know unless YOU research it. I have and found
enough info to make me happy, as others have. That's all I claim.



>If that's what you did, then are you then a spokesperson for
Quote:
Transpo or have you developed an independent but supporting
professional opinion you can share? Have you seen schematics,
design philosophies, parts selection criteria? Would you/they
share that with us? I get access to this stuff when I approve
products for my boss, it's called preliminary and critical design
reviews. But since you're going experimental, do you consider
such tools superfluous, perhaps a waste of time? Is it no longer
necessary that we understand how things work? Just field the
pitch over the counter at OSH and plunk down the credit card? I
may have to ask your forgiveness. I consider my OBAM aircraft
customers just as deserving of the best-I-know-how-to-do as my
TC aircraft customers.

Lots of words and smoke but no meat. WHAT are you talking
about? Spokesperson? OBAM? the best-I-know-how-to-do?
Great, but so what?

Bob dont be ridiculous; I am not their spokesman, and no
they are not going to hand you detailed info. SO WHAT? They
will confirm the functions and how they work. That is what
started this thread. I talk to them a few times and found them to
be friendly, knowledgeably and helpful. They have a true desire to
understand the problems and offered me their assistant in doing
detailed failure analysis of failed components I might have. I am
sure if you call, are nice and REALLY want to learn from them
(not teach them), they will help you also. Your I DEMAND PROOF
attitude (analysis, test reports, detailed schematics), I am
guessing will not go over big or impress them.

Its irrelevant what you do at work. We are talking about small
alternators for small planes that dont need certification approval.

Since there are many many thousands of I-VR's flying
successfully in experimental planes, the experiment has been
repeated so many times in so many builders planes, its not an
experiment anymore.

Bob you gladly expressed your opinion or allowed others to
express their opinions as fact with out ANY proof. Now when Jon
or I say I-VR have soft start or thermal protection you demand
proof? You make me laugh. That is hypocritical. I guess you cant
prove a negative. Prove I-VR are subject to massive OV. I know
you cant. I want to see your repeatable test. No THEORY, FACT.

Your position is untenable. The fact is I-VR do a great job and if
installed and operated appropriately, which respectfully your
your book does not represent, than you can expect good service.
It is experimental not Beechcraft.

How many I-VR have you seen and determined it was a shorted
transistor, your leading theory. NONE. Your past reply, parts are
gone or its so damaged you cant analyze it. I call BS! Lets see
your facts. However we are digressing.

A year ago Aeroelectric list was more like pulp fiction than a clearing
house of facts, when it came to internal voltage regulated alternators.
It is much better now.

If you really care or want to understand than look into it. If you
dont and want to stay in your belief system I understand. Why
should you change. You have a way that works for you which you
feel comfortable recommending. THAT IS FINE! I get it and
respect that position, but let I-VR users learn with out impediment.



>You've tossed in tons of cabbages and tomatoes which I've
Quote:
attempted to field with thoughtful, illustrative answers. May I
suggest this friendly competition. Let the List vote on the work
product. Looser sends the winner a copy of his favorite book.

More analogies Bob. Oh Boy, You are so funny. What tons of
cabbages and tomatoes are you talking about? Is that an insult?
What did I say specifically that was either cabbage or tomato?

I dont care. I am just having a hard enough time getting you to
stay on the subject. You like the student asking the professor
to prove Einstein's theory of relativity and worm holes exist.
PROVE IT, you say over and over. Nothing wrong with asking
questions, but after a while its counter productive, and you
need to figure it out for yourself. By just asking questions to
cast some doubt on the topic is a waste of time. Bob, everyone
else in the class either does not care, gets it or has moved on.
You need to answer your own questions because you are the
only one you will listen to or believe. That is cool.

I am trying to stay on point and talk about a subject with out all
the flowery language and meaningless analogies.

You make me laugh Bob N. What is a *work product*?

I think the list has voted already. There are more internally
regulated alternators going into planes than B&C or otherwise.
Even Aeroelectic readers put I-VRs in, but they dont have the
heart to tell you Bob. Vans sells thousands and thousands of the
I-VR Nippon Denso 60 amp alternators. Niagara sells 1000s of
NDs with I-VRs. Someone is buying them. How many does B&C sell?

As for the one problem with I-VR, there are a thousand times
more flying daily with no problem.

I WIN!

Ill take the THE DA VINCI CODE, hard back please.


Quote:
If you 'dust' me, I'll be pleased to send you a copy of "The
Professional Amateur" by T.A. Boyd. It's a biography of
Charles F. Kettering - a scientist worthy of much respect and
emulation . . . one of my personal heroes.

You have already lost, so when you pick up THE DA VINCI
CODE for me, pick up a copy of that Bio you want for yourself,
to save a trip to the book store.

Bob, let us improve the understanding with out all the smoke
screen and posturing with irrelevant analogies, certification standards
and PROOF that will make YOU happy, which is not likely going to
happen, unless you do it yourself. You DO NOT represent I-VR at
all. What you suggest for E-VR is counter to safe efficient
operation of I-VR in my OPINION. No facts just opinion. However
I emphasize that I understand your position and respect it. Bottom
line people are going to use I-VRs no matter what you say. Why
not better understand the data that *IS* available than just
disparage the data as not being good enough. Lets use what
we have and know NOW. You just say not good enough.


George (write me for my address, so you can send my book.)


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