Matronics Email Lists Forum Index Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists
 
 Get Email Distribution Too!Get Email Distribution Too!    FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Gotcha!

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> AeroElectric-List
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
gmcjetpilot(at)yahoo.com
Guest





PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 10:32 pm    Post subject: Gotcha! Reply with quote

Before we gloat...

OC it has more to do with manual entry of LAT/LONG and an error, than
the data base for one. I fly across the Atlantic several times a month and
I also have to enter LAT/LONG in the Honeywell Flt Management
Computer FMC, thru a CDU (control display unit). It is possible (easy) to
make a mistake, however there are several checks that we do before
departing. The main check is both pilots must together go over each lat /
long and compare the course, distance between way points as well as
total distance to the printed flight plan. Before departure, before
going oceanic the NAV position is compared with ground stations and
noted on the flight plan. If no ground based NAV is available we have to
look at all three GPS and IRS (inertial ref system) and compare them.

During the flight you keep track of position with a good old plotting chart
and flight plan. A check is made approaching, over and 10 minutes after
way points. All this is noted on the the chart and a postion report is
radioed via HF. This is the TIP of oceanic NAV. You all remember the
KAL007 that the Russians shot down. That was likely caused by miss
placed Lat/long entries and a switch not selected to the proper position.


Quote:
"The crew of C-GKFJ did not receive any special training before the
flight on the use of the Apollo 820 GPS, nor did they receive a briefing
on company procedures for long-range navigation."


This is the first problem. Before I went across the pond I had 2 weeks of
ground school, of which many days spent on long range nav, simulator
training and at least one flight with a training Captain over
the Atlantic. This poor crew was set up to fail.

So before you all point finger, if it can happen to a Pro crew, it can happen
to you or me. First I can't believe an Apollo 820 GPS is legal for long range
Oceanic flight. It would not meet the requirements to cross the Atlantic.
Second the out of date data base blows me away. With that said they would
have been better off using the old data base way points, even out of
date. They could check the lat/longs against a chart or flight plane.
Entering lat / longs much more error prone than entering a way point ID.


This is WAY more than an out of date data base. Training, following
standard procedures, cross checking and using all information available
info to name a few. Lesson learned for GA pilots is get training, stay
current and just don't follow one NAV source blindly if at all possible. If
they would have plotted it and just used their compass they would have
caught it earlier. It is easy for me to say in the comfort of my office, but
dead reckoning would have helped. The fault lies with management of
the airline and than the crew for flying where they had no business. GPS
is magic and amazing, they where right where they told it to be.

The data base was a contributing but not critical factor

George


Quote:
From: <bakerocb(at)cox.net>
Subject: Gotcha!
Date: Jan 02, 2006

1/2/2005
For all of us believers in the magic of GPS and modern avionics please
read

Quote:
the below cautionary tale:
http://www.tsb.gc.ca/en/reports/air/2003/A03F0114/A03F0114.asp
My flight time over the ocean is not that great, but the terror that wells
up when one has been out of sight of land for hours and is uncertain of
their position is huge.
Particularly note the diagram at the end of this article. Imagine the
decision process / courage involved in making that greater than 270
degree

Quote:
turn to the right.
OC
PS: All pilots flying around IFR with out dated GPS data bases should
read this article.


---------------------------------


- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
Back to top
BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Guest





PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 5:11 am    Post subject: Gotcha! Reply with quote

In a message dated 2/26/2006 12:36:01 A.M. Central Standard Time,
gmcjetpilot(at)yahoo.com writes:

So before you all point finger, if it can happen to a Pro crew, it can
happen
to you or me. First I can't believe an Apollo 820 GPS is legal for long
range
Oceanic flight. It would not meet the requirements to cross the Atlantic.
Second the out of date data base blows me away. With that said they would
have been better off using the old data base way points, even out of
date. They could check the lat/longs against a chart or flight plane.
Entering lat / longs much more error prone than entering a way point ID.
Good Morning George,

Don't get carried away with your indignation. There are many small, low
cost, navigation devices that are approved for operation as sole source guidance
for flight across the North Atlantic. Included among them are the Trimble 2000
Approach and Approach Plus, Garmin GNC 300 XL and the Apollo NMC 2001. There
are probably many more, but that is NOT an area of my expertise.

Incidentally, I do agree with you that errors are easy to make. I was flying
long haul when we first got rid of the live navigators (we had errors with
them too!) and went to INS navigation. I realize that current practice among
air carriers is much more regulated than it was in my day, but I never liked
the 'two man' loading scheme. I always loaded my FMC's by having one of us
load from the chart and the other from the flight plan. (We only used two FMC's
on my airline) After we had independently loaded the data, we then cross
checked the two units to assure that both had the same data loaded. No cross
filling allowed in my cockpit.

You would be amazed at how many errors we found in the early computer
generated flight plans!

Happy Skies,

Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Air Park LL22
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8503


- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
Back to top
brian



Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 643
Location: Sacramento, California, USA

PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 9:27 am    Post subject: Gotcha! Reply with quote

gmcjetpilot(at)yahoo.com wrote:

Quote:
This is the first problem. Before I went across the pond I had 2 weeks of
ground school, of which many days spent on long range nav, simulator
training and at least one flight with a training Captain over
the Atlantic. This poor crew was set up to fail.

Well, there is training and there is training. It is quite possible for
the captain and crew to ensure their own training and to make a plan for
how to deal with contingencies. It would make a lot of sense for the
crew to think about their lack of training and then go get the
information they needed. A lot has been written on the subject and the
basics of navigation are well understood. That is what I did and I had
no problems with long-range, over-water navigation. It is when you
believe in your computers too much that you start to have problems.

Quote:
So before you all point finger, if it can happen to a Pro crew, it can happen
to you or me. First I can't believe an Apollo 820 GPS is legal for long range
Oceanic flight.

When making a ferry flight you can get away with a lot. I have flown my
Comanche across the Atlantic twice, once non-stop. There are a lot of
opportunities to screw up in 11 hours with nothing to look at but ocean.
None of my equipment was "approved" for long-range ocean flight but it
served me adequately well. My primary electronic nav was a LORAN which I
knew would stop working when it got out of range of the Canadian chain
and would remain unusable until I got within range of the North Atlantic
chain.

My HF was an old Collins KWM-2 that I had retuned to work in the
aviation bands. The Canadian authorities laughed saying they hadn't seen
someone use a KWM-2 for many years. I had designed an e-bus to ensure
that I would have my electronic nav gear in case of a loss of the main
electrical system. The Canadian DOT inspector at Moncton felt that my
e-bus design was pretty neat and eliminated the need for a separate
battery-operated LF DF radio.

So my real primary nav was DR backed up with LORAN and using ADF and VOR
for secondary backup. Everything worked as planned, including the loss
of LORAN navigation about 5 hours into the flight. The only surprise is
that we didn't get LORAN back until we were almost to Ireland. By then I
had VOR. ADF surprised me by working from mid-Atlantic. (BBC used to
have a very high-power LW station at 201 KHz if I recall. The
programming wasn't great but the signal kept the ADF needle pointed
where we were going.) Regardless, my DR planning got me to my
destination within 30 seconds of flight-plan time.

I kept a navigation log that cross-referenced DR and LORAN data. When
the LORAN quit working we were on DR-only but had good intermediate nav
data to start from. When I finally got my LORAN back we were only about
5 miles off-course. DR works a lot better than most people give it
credit for.

And, yes, I would do it again using the same equipment.

--
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)

I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery


- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List

_________________
Brian Lloyd
brian-yak at lloyd dot com
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)

I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> AeroElectric-List All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group