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fluid level sensor needed
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rv8ch



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 250
Location: Switzerland

PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 10:29 am    Post subject: fluid level sensor needed Reply with quote

Hi,

I'm looking for a fluid level sensor that I
will use in my Subaru engine cooling system.

I've found lots of on/off switches that will
tell me if there is coolant there or not, but
does anyone know of a reasonably priced sensor
that will give me analog output over a range
of values? Reasonably priced means to me
something less than about $250.

Thanks!
Mickey
--
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http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 finishing


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mark.steitle(at)austin.ut
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 10:56 am    Post subject: fluid level sensor needed Reply with quote

Mickey,
How much space do you have to work with? Maybe you could use a
float-type fuel level sensor and shorten the arm so that it fits inside
the reservoir.

Mark S.

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frank.hinde(at)hp.com
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 11:19 am    Post subject: fluid level sensor needed Reply with quote

I don't know about a level sensor but in my ea81 I use a pressure
guage...If pressure goes away after take off it means I have a leak and
have to land anyway...Its worked pretty well for 400 hours.

Just an idea

Frank

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rv8ch



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 250
Location: Switzerland

PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 11:43 am    Post subject: fluid level sensor needed Reply with quote

Quote:
How much space do you have to work with? Maybe you could use a
float-type fuel level sensor and shorten the arm so that it fits inside
the reservoir.

The tank is 4"x4"x3" so there is not a lot of space.

It will be a "zero pressure" system, or very low pressure.

Thanks,
Mickey

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http://www.rv8.ch/
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Mark Phillips in TN



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 431
Location: Columbia, TN

PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 12:01 pm    Post subject: fluid level sensor needed Reply with quote

Have you taken a look at McMaster Carr?

click on: http://www.mcmaster.com/
and go to page 490- they have several pages of float switches for many uses.
Good folks to deal with- they sell a LOT of RV parts!

Mark Phillips


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 12:22 pm    Post subject: fluid level sensor needed Reply with quote

You could use the fuel warning system, I am using it on my header tank when
it is low. It should work in the Rad also. Here is the ACS #, P/N 6905-400
$28.70

Ron Triano
http://bld01.ipowerweb.com/contentmanagement/websites/rtrianoc/page10.html
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rv8ch



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 250
Location: Switzerland

PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 1:58 pm    Post subject: fluid level sensor needed Reply with quote

Quote:
Have you taken a look at McMaster Carr?

click on: http://www.mcmaster.com/
and go to page 490- they have several pages of float switches for many uses.
Good folks to deal with- they sell a LOT of RV parts!

Oh, yes, I know McMaster-Carr, as does my credit card.

I could only find on/off switches there, no analog switches.

I might have to punt on this and just go with a NO/NC
type switch. Perhaps I'm trying to get too fancy.

Thanks for all the suggestions!

--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 finishing
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Earl_Schroeder(at)juno.co
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 2:25 pm    Post subject: fluid level sensor needed Reply with quote

If memory serves me correctly, Jim Weir had a 'cheap' do it yourself
capacitance probe and op amp amplifier project several years ago. You
might search his site. Or the publication KitPlanes archives. Earl
do not archive

Mickey Coggins wrote:
Quote:



> Have you taken a look at McMaster Carr?
>
> click on: http://www.mcmaster.com/
> and go to page 490- they have several pages of float switches for many uses.
> Good folks to deal with- they sell a LOT of RV parts!
>

Oh, yes, I know McMaster-Carr, as does my credit card.

I could only find on/off switches there, no analog switches.

I might have to punt on this and just go with a NO/NC
type switch. Perhaps I'm trying to get too fancy.

Thanks for all the suggestions!




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raymondj(at)frontiernet.n
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 3:42 pm    Post subject: fluid level sensor needed Reply with quote

Would it meet your needs to use 2 or 3 float switches with the floats set at
different levels. The fluid level could be defined within a range based
which switches are closed/open.

Good luck,
rayj

Original Message -----
From: "Mickey Coggins" <mick-matronics(at)rv8.ch>
To: <aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2006 12:27 PM
Subject: fluid level sensor needed
Quote:

<mick-matronics(at)rv8.ch>

Hi,

I'm looking for a fluid level sensor that I
will use in my Subaru engine cooling system.

I've found lots of on/off switches that will
tell me if there is coolant there or not, but
does anyone know of a reasonably priced sensor
that will give me analog output over a range
of values? Reasonably priced means to me
something less than about $250.

Thanks!
Mickey
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 finishing






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mprather(at)spro.net
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 3:53 pm    Post subject: fluid level sensor needed Reply with quote

Capacitors require a fairly decent dielectric media for the
between-the-plates insulator. Coolant isn't that (dielectric nor
insulating)...

Quote:

<Earl_Schroeder(at)juno.com>

If memory serves me correctly, Jim Weir had a 'cheap' do it yourself
capacitance probe and op amp amplifier project several years ago. You
might search his site. Or the publication KitPlanes archives. Earl do
not archive

Mickey Coggins wrote:
>
> <mick-matronics(at)rv8.ch>
>> Have you taken a look at McMaster Carr?
>>
>> click on: http://www.mcmaster.com/
>> and go to page 490- they have several pages of float switches for
>> many uses. Good folks to deal with- they sell a LOT of RV parts!
>>
>
> Oh, yes, I know McMaster-Carr, as does my credit card.
>
> I could only find on/off switches there, no analog switches.
>
> I might have to punt on this and just go with a NO/NC
> type switch. Perhaps I'm trying to get too fancy.
>
> Thanks for all the suggestions!



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 4:42 pm    Post subject: fluid level sensor needed Reply with quote

Not to be 'picky' here but insulated probes will measure a conductive
liquid quite well... used a bunch back at GE. Earl
do not archive

Matt Prather wrote:
Quote:

Capacitors require a fairly decent dielectric media for the
between-the-plates insulator. Coolant isn't that (dielectric nor
insulating)...


>
> <Earl_Schroeder(at)juno.com>
>
> If memory serves me correctly, Jim Weir had a 'cheap' do it yourself
> capacitance probe and op amp amplifier project several years ago. You
> might search his site. Or the publication KitPlanes archives. Earl do
> not archive
>
> Mickey Coggins wrote:
>
>>
>> <mick-matronics(at)rv8.ch>
>>
>>
>>
>>> Have you taken a look at McMaster Carr?
>>>
>>> click on: http://www.mcmaster.com/
>>> and go to page 490- they have several pages of float switches for
>>> many uses. Good folks to deal with- they sell a LOT of RV parts!
>>>
>>>
>> Oh, yes, I know McMaster-Carr, as does my credit card.
>>
>> I could only find on/off switches there, no analog switches.
>>
>> I might have to punt on this and just go with a NO/NC
>> type switch. Perhaps I'm trying to get too fancy.
>>
>> Thanks for all the suggestions!
>>
>>
>>
>
>








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mprather(at)spro.net
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 5:35 pm    Post subject: fluid level sensor needed Reply with quote

Good point. How tough is it to make a probe that doesn't leak too bad..
I guess leakage adds series R to the RC circuit, so probably isn't too
critical, though I think it will damp the oscillator circuit.

http://www.rst-engr.com/rst/articles/KP89SEP.pdf

Discussion on dielctric strength.

http://www.usm.maine.edu/~newton/Chy251_253/Lectures/Solvents/Solvents.html

http://www.clippercontrols.com/info/dielectric_constants.html

This is still going to be a challenge - the glycol to water ratio isn't
always going to be the same, and the dielectric strength of water varies
with temperature..

How about a little camera with a light that lets you actually see a sight
tube?? Smile Put the sight tube for the coolant next to a sight tube for
the engine oil level. Have the camera display to the cockpit on a little
LCD..

Or how about adapt a fishfinder - mount it in the bottom of a tube within
the reservoir - pointed up, with a little float in the top of the tube.
The fishfinder will detect the distance between the sensor and the float.
Might have to work on improving the shallow water resolution.
Regards,

Matt-
Quote:

<Earl_Schroeder(at)juno.com>

Not to be 'picky' here but insulated probes will measure a conductive
liquid quite well... used a bunch back at GE. Earl
do not archive

Matt Prather wrote:
>
> <mprather(at)spro.net>
> Capacitors require a fairly decent dielectric media for the
> between-the-plates insulator. Coolant isn't that (dielectric nor
> insulating)...
>>
>> <Earl_Schroeder(at)juno.com>
>>
>> If memory serves me correctly, Jim Weir had a 'cheap' do it yourself
>> capacitance probe and op amp amplifier project several years ago.
>> You might search his site. Or the publication KitPlanes archives.
>> Earl do not archive
>>
>> Mickey Coggins wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> <mick-matronics(at)rv8.ch>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Have you taken a look at McMaster Carr?
>>>>
>>>> click on: http://www.mcmaster.com/
>>>> and go to page 490- they have several pages of float switches for
>>>> many uses. Good folks to deal with- they sell a LOT of RV parts!
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Oh, yes, I know McMaster-Carr, as does my credit card.
>>>
>>> I could only find on/off switches there, no analog switches.
>>>
>>> I might have to punt on this and just go with a NO/NC
>>> type switch. Perhaps I'm trying to get too fancy.
>>>
>>> Thanks for all the suggestions!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>



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paul.mcallister



Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 177
Location: Waukesha, WI USA

PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 5:35 pm    Post subject: fluid level sensor needed Reply with quote

Hi,

I built a fuel tank gauge based off a 0 ~ 1 " pressure transducer for my
Europa. Although you only have 0 ~ 4 " of head, I would say from my bench
experiments that this device is sensitive enough for your needs.

The sensor was a Honeywell 26PCAFA6D and I amplified its output with a
INA118P instrumentation op amp. It would cost you less than $25 in parts to
experiment with and I am confident that it would work for you.

Regards, Paul


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 2:49 pm    Post subject: fluid level sensor needed Reply with quote

At 07:27 PM 2/16/2006 +0100, you wrote:

Quote:

<mick-matronics(at)rv8.ch>

Hi,

I'm looking for a fluid level sensor that I
will use in my Subaru engine cooling system.

I've found lots of on/off switches that will
tell me if there is coolant there or not, but
does anyone know of a reasonably priced sensor
that will give me analog output over a range
of values? Reasonably priced means to me
something less than about $250.

Does this need to be a quantity gage or just
a low level warning?

Bob . . .


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rv8ch



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 250
Location: Switzerland

PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 3:30 pm    Post subject: fluid level sensor needed Reply with quote

Quote:
Does this need to be a quantity gage or just
a low level warning?

My goal is to know when it is low, but I don't
really trust an "idiot light" solution, which
is why I'd like some idea of the progression
from "ok" to "too low".

My fallback position is to install two on/off
type sensors at different levels, but that's
getting kind of kludgey.

Thanks for any hints!

--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 finishing
do not archive


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Larry McFarland



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 36
Location: East Moline, Illinois

PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 4:47 pm    Post subject: fluid level sensor needed Reply with quote

Bob,
I use a pressure sensor in a threaded boss in a metal hose connection.
The warning is provided by
my Grand Rapids Technologies E I S. It's alarm is set at a minimum 4
psi. You loose water pressure
you know just as well that you don't have enough water to continue much
farther. A low fluid level would
not necessarily save your engine if it were placed incorrectly and might
be excess mechanics for what
you're trying to do. A pressure switch is smaller and simpler to do.

Larry McFarland - 601hds with Stratus Subaru

Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:

Quote:


At 07:27 PM 2/16/2006 +0100, you wrote:



>
><mick-matronics(at)rv8.ch>
>
>Hi,
>
>I'm looking for a fluid level sensor that I
>will use in my Subaru engine cooling system.
>
>I've found lots of on/off switches that will
>tell me if there is coolant there or not, but
>does anyone know of a reasonably priced sensor
>that will give me analog output over a range
>of values? Reasonably priced means to me
>something less than about $250.
>
>
Does this need to be a quantity gage or just
a low level warning?

Bob . . .




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rv8ch



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 250
Location: Switzerland

PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 2:39 am    Post subject: fluid level sensor needed Reply with quote

Hi Larry,

Thanks for getting back to me.

Quote:
I use a pressure sensor in a threaded boss in a metal hose connection.

Which pressure sensor are you using?

Paul's idea of using a Honeywell 26PCAFA6D amplified with a
INA118P instrumentation op amp is great, but I'm not
really qualified to do that much integration. I want
to run a zero pressure system, so using a sensor that
can detect such a small amount of pressure would be perfect,
assuming it's adequately damped.

Quote:
The warning is provided by
my Grand Rapids Technologies E I S. It's alarm is set at a minimum 4
psi. You loose water pressure
you know just as well that you don't have enough water to continue much
farther. A low fluid level would
not necessarily save your engine if it were placed incorrectly and might
be excess mechanics for what
you're trying to do. A pressure switch is smaller and simpler to do.

I'm not planning to run any pressure in my system, but
this might change when my design meets reality. Still, I'm
having a little trouble understanding the relationship between
pressure and coolant loss. It seems like even if you have a
slow leak, and the coolant level goes down, the pressure
cap will maintain the correct pressure, even if it's only
air. I'm kind of new to this, so please excuse my ignorance.

Thanks,
Mickey

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http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 finishing


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Larry McFarland



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 36
Location: East Moline, Illinois

PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 7:47 am    Post subject: fluid level sensor needed Reply with quote

Mickey,
I used a Grand Rapids Technologies Part Number LPS-02 low pressure
sensor suitable for fuel and coolant pressures between 0-28 psi.
My coolant pressure is always above 5 psi so the low warning is set at 4
psi. If you're using a zero-pressure coolant in your engine
like the Evans waterless coolants, this might not be a good idea as they
only get pressure from pump flow.

GRT can be reached at Byron Center, MI ph 616-583-8000.

Larry

Mickey Coggins wrote:

Quote:


Hi Larry,

Thanks for getting back to me.



>I use a pressure sensor in a threaded boss in a metal hose connection.
>
>

Which pressure sensor are you using?

Paul's idea of using a Honeywell 26PCAFA6D amplified with a
INA118P instrumentation op amp is great, but I'm not
really qualified to do that much integration. I want
to run a zero pressure system, so using a sensor that
can detect such a small amount of pressure would be perfect,
assuming it's adequately damped.



>The warning is provided by
>my Grand Rapids Technologies E I S. It's alarm is set at a minimum 4
>psi. You loose water pressure
>you know just as well that you don't have enough water to continue much
>farther. A low fluid level would
>not necessarily save your engine if it were placed incorrectly and might
>be excess mechanics for what
>you're trying to do. A pressure switch is smaller and simpler to do.
>
>

I'm not planning to run any pressure in my system, but
this might change when my design meets reality. Still, I'm
having a little trouble understanding the relationship between
pressure and coolant loss. It seems like even if you have a
slow leak, and the coolant level goes down, the pressure
cap will maintain the correct pressure, even if it's only
air. I'm kind of new to this, so please excuse my ignorance.

Thanks,
Mickey





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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 10:29 am    Post subject: fluid level sensor needed Reply with quote

At 12:27 AM 2/19/2006 +0100, you wrote:

Quote:

<mick-matronics(at)rv8.ch>

> Does this need to be a quantity gage or just
> a low level warning?

My goal is to know when it is low, but I don't
really trust an "idiot light" solution, which
is why I'd like some idea of the progression
from "ok" to "too low".

My fallback position is to install two on/off
type sensors at different levels, but that's
getting kind of kludgey.

Thanks for any hints!

Hmmmm . . . . but hard to beat for simplicity.
Reed switches operated with magnets on floats
are really inexpensive and reasonably reliable.
There are some optical level sensors with
possibilities. See:

http://www.gemssensors.com/electrooptical.htm

and

http://www.gemssensors.com/TOCResults.asp?nContentsID=29

I'm working on a one wire, no moving parts, thermally
sensed low liquid level detection system that will be
simpler to install and still more rugged but no schedule
on that activity yet. If you need something tomorrow,
consider the technology cited above.

For magnet and reed technologies, see:

http://www.gemssensors.com/TOCResults.asp?nContentsID=36

Some of these mount right through the sidewall of a
container. You could install more than one and use
simple indicator lamps to annunciate switch position.

Bob . . .


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rv8ch



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 250
Location: Switzerland

PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 10:59 am    Post subject: fluid level sensor needed Reply with quote

Quote:
I'm working on a one wire, no moving parts, thermally
sensed low liquid level detection system that will be
simpler to install and still more rugged but no schedule
on that activity yet. If you need something tomorrow,
consider the technology cited above.

That sounds like a winner. Please keep us posted.

Quote:
Some of these mount right through the sidewall of a
container. You could install more than one and use
simple indicator lamps to annunciate switch position.

Looks like I need to modify the expansion tank drawing
I sent to Canton Racing to add a couple of 1/4" NPTs
onto the side.

Thanks,
Mickey

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http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 finishing
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