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O2 in air tank??????

 
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n395v



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 450

PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 9:53 am    Post subject: O2 in air tank?????? Reply with quote

Just got the following e mail from a friend.

Quote:
Just a word of caution-----perhaps something you already know, perhaps not.

A friend with Murphy Moose that has the same engine you have in the Gryphon, just had a strange and costly mishap -----

He ran the air tank down trying to start a flooded engine. Apparently, when the tank was recharged, someone put oxygen in. This happened at another airport, not his home, and he was not aware of the problem.When he started the engine, it backfired violently, but started.

Not being aware that there was anything wrong, he flew home. The next time he tried to start, no air pressure.

Seems that when it backfired, the pressure was so extream that it blew a 3000# line at the engine, as well as another fitting on a hard line, and lastly, blew the air start distributor apx 3" off the engine.

Bent the lines to the cylinders, and stripped the studs out of the adapter that the air distributor sits on.

Moral of this story, if you need an air fill, be sure that it is air, or nitrogen, not oxygen.

Are the O2 transfill adapters compatible with the fill connector on the air tanks?


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 10:09 am    Post subject: O2 in air tank?????? Reply with quote

This same situation happened a few years back and literally ejected the
pilot from the Yak 52. It blew lines, tank and everything else. If someone
was in the back seat, they would not have made it because of the shrapnel.

Although there is no clear way to prevent someone unfamiliar with the
airplane with filling the pneumatic system with O2, putting a conspicuous
label at/around the external air fill port saying "compressed air only" in
big, bold, letters may help at some point in time.

Dennis

"An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure"
---


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ScottA



Joined: 05 Jan 2006
Posts: 100
Location: Park City, UT

PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2007 8:28 am    Post subject: O2 in air tank?????? Reply with quote

I've spoken with the owner of the Moose mentioned below. Just to add a few notes.

The air bottle is the new modern aluminum cylinder type and it is way in the tail of his Moose - with it being so new and so far from the source of oily air from the compressor it is pretty clean inside - that is why no problem when the O2 initially pumped in.

Also all the damage was from the O2 exploding not any "back pressure" caused by the backfire. Actually he is thinking no real back fire and the big violent bang he heard was of course the manifold and everything blowing up. To add to the damage mentioned below he has a stainless braided flex line from the solenoids on the fire wall to the bottle in the tail - the stainless braid was blown out all along this line too.

Of course he was assured multiply times that the bottle was "air" not O2.

How would one test to see if an unknown source was air or O2 in a situation like this?

FWIW
Scott

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2007 9:46 am    Post subject: O2 in air tank?????? Reply with quote

Hi:

Welding companies have to by law have the contents of bottles marked and the fittings are different. I was kinda suprised that someone would change the fittings around to make this happen.

I would think he is very lucky no one was injured.

If the cylinder looks strange and does not have a label identifying the contents I would not use it.

One of the most common mistakes is for people to use Nitrogen to try to start the engine. Of course the engine won't start on an inert gas. But they should get good oil pressure.<grin>

If in doubt hand prop the engine. M-14s prop pretty easy with two people. One in the plane and one on the ground. If you are completely out of air and the plane has air brakes tie the plane down to something substantial.<grin>

I have propped a few planes by myself and you have to be real careful. Probably a bad idea but sometimes you don't have a choice. I have installed tow hooks on a couple of planes so the owners could carry some small pieces of cable and just leave the cable behind after they started their planes.

Steve Culp

Scott Aldrich <s-aldrich(at)comcast.net> wrote:
[quote]--> M14PEngines-List message posted by: "Scott Aldrich"

I've spoken with the owner of the Moose mentioned below. Just to add a few notes.

The air bottle is the new modern aluminum cylinder type and it is way in the tail of his Moose - with it being so new and so far from the source of oily air from the compressor it is pretty clean inside - that is why no problem when the O2 initially pumped in.

Also all the damage was from the O2 exploding not any "back pressure" caused by the backfire. Actually he is thinking no real back fire and the big violent bang he heard was of course the manifold and everything blowing up. To add to the damage mentioned below he has a stainless braided flex line from the solenoids on the fire wall to the bottle in the tail - the stainless braid was blown out all along this line too.

Of course he was assured multiply times that the bottle was "air" not O2.

How would one test to see if an unknown source was air or O2 in a situation like this?

FWIW
Scott

--


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2007 1:40 pm    Post subject: O2 in air tank?????? Reply with quote

I have started an M14P more than once with nitrogen. It worked just fine.

Wes
On 4/1/07, Steve Culp <culpspecial(at)yahoo.com> wrote:
[quote] Hi:

Welding companies have to by law have the contents of bottles marked and
the fittings are different. I was kinda suprised that someone would change
the fittings around to make this happen.

I would think he is very lucky no one was injured.

If the cylinder looks strange and does not have a label identifying the
contents I would not use it.

One of the most common mistakes is for people to use Nitrogen to try to
start the engine. Of course the engine won't start on an inert gas. But
they should get good oil pressure.<grin>

If in doubt hand prop the engine. M-14s prop pretty easy with two
people. One in the plane and one on the ground. If you are completely out
of air and the plane has air brakes tie the plane down to something
substantial.<grin>

I have propped a few planes by myself and you have to be real careful.
Probably a bad idea but sometimes you don't have a choice. I have installed
tow hooks on a couple of planes so the owners could carry some small pieces
of cable and just leave the cable behind after they started their planes.

Steve Culp

Scott Aldrich <s-aldrich(at)comcast.net> wrote:


I've spoken with the owner of the Moose mentioned below. Just to add a few
notes.

The air bottle is the new modern aluminum cylinder type and it is way in the
tail of his Moose - with it being so new and so far from the source of oily
air from the compressor it is pretty clean inside - that is why no problem
when the O2 initially pumped in.

Also all the damage was from the O2 exploding not any "back pressure" caused
by the backfire. Actually he is thinking no real back fire and the big
violent bang he heard was of course the manifold and everything blowing up.
To add to the damage mentioned below he has a stainless braided flex line
from the solenoids on the fire wall to the bottle in the tail - the
stainless braid was blown out all along this line too.

Of course he was assured multiply times that the bottle was "air" not O2.

How would one test to see if an unknown source was air or O2 in a situation
like this?

FWIW
Scott

--


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2007 3:00 pm    Post subject: O2 in air tank?????? Reply with quote

Interesting since nitrogen won't support combustion.
It has never worked for me or my customers.
Were you completely filling an empty system or topping off a low system?
I can see if you were topping off a system that had some air in it.
Steve


Wesley Warner <warner.wesley(at)gmail.com> wrote:
[quote]--> M14PEngines-List message posted by: "Wesley Warner"

I have started an M14P more than once with nitrogen. It worked just fine.

Wes
On 4/1/07, Steve Culp wrote:
[quote] Hi:

Welding companies have to by law have the contents of bottles marked and
the fittings are different. I was kinda suprised that someone would change
the fittings around to make this happen.

I would think he is very lucky no one was injured.

If the cylinder looks strange and does not have a label identifying the
contents I would not use it.

One of the most common mistakes is for people to use Nitrogen to try to
start the engine. Of course the engine won't start on an inert gas. But
they should get good oil pressure.

If in doubt hand prop the engine. M-14s prop pretty easy with two
people. One in the plane and one on the ground. If you are completely out
of air and the plane has air brakes tie the plane down to something
substantial.

I have propped a few planes by myself and you have to be real careful.
Probably a bad idea but sometimes you don't have a choice. I have installed
tow hooks on a couple of planes so the owners could carry some small pieces
of cable and just leave the cable behind after they started their planes.

Steve Culp

Scott Aldrich wrote:
--> M14PEngines-List message posted by: "Scott Aldrich"

I've spoken with the owner of the Moose mentioned below. Just to add a few
notes.

The air bottle is the new modern aluminum cylinder type and it is way in the
tail of his Moose - with it being so new and so far from the source of oily
air from the compressor it is pretty clean inside - that is why no problem
when the O2 initially pumped in.

Also all the damage was from the O2 exploding not any "back pressure" caused
by the backfire. Actually he is thinking no real back fire and the big
violent bang he heard was of course the manifold and everything blowing up.
To add to the damage mentioned below he has a stainless braided flex line
from the solenoids on the fire wall to the bottle in the tail - the
stainless braid was blown out all along this line too.

Of course he was assured multiply times that the bottle was "air" not O2.

How would one test to see if an unknown source was air or O2 in a situation
like this?

FWIW
Scott

--


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2007 3:19 pm    Post subject: O2 in air tank?????? Reply with quote

The system was totally empty. The tee on tank (55M) broke while at a
training camp. So we used an elbow from elsewhere and bypassed the
compressor. We then filled the tank with nitrogen and I used it for 2
starts. The next day we filled the tank again, hand propped it
(Thanks Nikolay) to save the remaining pressure for a start at my next
fuel stop. I then started again at my fuel stop, and flew the
remainder of the way home. Those were the only times I have tried it,
as I've had a scuba tank available at most places.

Wes

On 4/1/07, Steve Culp <culpspecial(at)yahoo.com> wrote:
Quote:
Interesting since nitrogen won't support combustion.
It has never worked for me or my customers.
Were you completely filling an empty system or topping off a low system?
I can see if you were topping off a system that had some air in it.
Steve
Wesley Warner <warner.wesley(at)gmail.com> wrote:


I have started an M14P more than once with nitrogen. It worked just fine.

Wes


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 4:28 am    Post subject: O2 in air tank?????? Reply with quote

I've used it twice when I ran it below the 200 psi or so that in normally required to start once on my 55 long wing and once on my 55m model, starts up just fine.

Steve Culp <culpspecial(at)yahoo.com> wrote:
[quote] Interesting since nitrogen won't support combustion.
It has never worked for me or my customers.
Were you completely filling an empty system or topping off a low system?
I can see if you were topping off a system that had some air in it.
Steve


Wesley Warner <warner.wesley(at)gmail.com> wrote:
[quote]--> M14PEngines-List message posted by: "Wesley Warner"

I have started an M14P more than once with nitrogen. It worked just fine.

Wes
On 4/1/07, Steve Culp wrote:
[quote] Hi:

Welding companies have to by law have the contents of bottles marked and
the fittings are different. I was kinda suprised that someone would change
the fittings around to make this happen.

I would think he is very lucky no one was injured.

If the cylinder looks strange and does not have a label identifying the
contents I would not use it.

One of the most common mistakes is for people to use Nitrogen to try to
start the engine. Of course the engine won't start on an inert gas. But
they should get good oil pressure.

If in doubt hand prop the engine. M-14s prop pretty easy with two
people. One in the plane and one on the ground. If you are completely out
of air and the plane has air brakes tie the plane down to something
substantial.

I have propped a few planes by myself and you have to be real careful.
Probably a bad idea but sometimes you don't have a choice. I have installed
tow hooks on a couple of planes so the owners could carry some small pieces
of cable and just leave the cable behind after they started their planes.

Steve Culp

Scott Aldrich wrote:
--> M14PEngines-List message posted by: "Scott Aldrich"

I've spoken with the owner of the Moose mentioned below. Just to add a few
notes.

The air bottle is the new modern aluminum cylinder type and it is way in the
tail of his Moose - with it being so new and so far from the source of oily
air from the compressor it is pretty clean inside - that is why no problem
when the O2 initially pumped in.

Also all the damage was from the O2 exploding not any "back pressure" caused
by the backfire. Actually he is thinking no real back fire and the big
violent bang he heard was of course the manifold and everything blowing up.
To add to the damage mentioned below he has a stainless braided flex line
from the solenoids on the fire wall to the bottle in the tail - the
stainless braid was blown out all along this line too.

Of course he was assured multiply times that the bottle was "air" not O2.

How would one test to see if an unknown source was air or O2 in a situation
like this?

FWIW
Scott

--


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 7:16 am    Post subject: O2 in air tank?????? Reply with quote

I don't see why an M14 would not start using nitrogen. I agree, it does not support combustion, BUT! It is not introduced to a cylinder that is going to have combustion.

Monty Barrett

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 7:44 am    Post subject: O2 in air tank?????? Reply with quote

Monte,
It's like MMO (Marvel Mystery Oil). No one knows why it works so well. As
for my engine, I've tried it several times and it just won't start. Don't
ask me why, because I'll give you the MMO answer. Smile
Dennis

---


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 10:56 am    Post subject: O2 in air tank?????? Reply with quote

I've started my Yak 50 several times with nitrogen. Works fine !

Jan Mevis

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 10:15 pm    Post subject: O2 in air tank?????? Reply with quote

This topic sure comes up a lot. -) I too have started an engine with the cylinder completely full of nitrogen. Others have tried it and have sworn on all that is holy that it just will not work. Possibly a variation in the starting air distributor setting.

Bottom line though is that air is being ported into a cylinder that is on the firing stroke. Other pistons not being forced downward with the compressed gas are on the intake stroke and are pulling in the standard air/fuel mixture.

Regardless, during long periods of inactivity I have filled my tanks with water pumped nitrogen and have later started the engine. I admit it did not fire as quickly as it normally does, but it did start.... more than once.

Now lets talk about flight suits and parachutes.

Mark Bitterlich
N50YK

Wesley Warner <warner.wesley(at)gmail.com> wrote:
[quote]--> M14PEngines-List message posted by: "Wesley Warner"

I have started an M14P more than once with nitrogen. It worked just fine.

Wes
On 4/1/07, Steve Culp wrote:
[quote] Hi:

Welding companies have to by law have the contents of bottles marked and
the fittings are different. I was kinda suprised that someone would change
the fittings around to make this happen.

I would think he is very lucky no one was injured.

If the cylinder looks strange and does not have a label identifying the
contents I would not use it.

One of the most common mistakes is for people to use Nitrogen to try to
start the engine. Of course the engine won't start on an inert gas. But
they should get good oil pressure.

If in doubt hand prop the engine. M-14s prop pretty easy with two
people. One in the plane and one on the ground. If you are completely out
of air and the plane has air brakes tie the plane down to something
substantial.

I have propped a few planes by myself and you have to be real careful.
Probably a bad idea but sometimes you don't have a choice. I have installed
tow hooks on a couple of planes so the owners could carry some small pieces
of cable and just leave the cable behind after they started their planes.

Steve Culp

Scott Aldrich wrote:
--> M14PEngines-List message posted by: "Scott Aldrich"

I've spoken with the owner of the Moose mentioned below. Just to add a few
notes.

The air bottle is the new modern aluminum cylinder type and it is way in the
tail of his Moose - with it being so new and so far from the source of oily
air from the compressor it is pretty clean inside - that is why no problem
when the O2 initially pumped in.

Also all the damage was from the O2 exploding not any "back pressure" caused
by the backfire. Actually he is thinking no real back fire and the big
violent bang he heard was of course the manifold and everything blowing up.
To add to the damage mentioned below he has a stainless braided flex line
from the solenoids on the fire wall to the bottle in the tail - the
stainless braid was blown out all along this line too.

Of course he was assured multiply times that the bottle was "air" not O2.

How would one test to see if an unknown source was air or O2 in a situation
like this?

FWIW
Scott

--


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 4:51 am    Post subject: O2 in air tank?????? Reply with quote

Mark,
A slight correction that probably would not change your theory, but air is also injected into the bottom cylinders during non expansion strokes to ostensibly blow out any oil or fuel that could cause hydrolock.
You can put me in the class that never has had any luck with nitrogen. I have started them with no air by my self by tying them down, suitably priming and pulling through by hand and leaving a cylinder at TDC. The shower of sparks will fire the cylinder and with luck or a few tries it will keep going. Keep it tied down until you get air pressure for brakes and the re start.

George

From: owner-m14pengines-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-m14pengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Yak Pilot
Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2007 2:15 AM
To: m14pengines-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: O2 in air tank??????

This topic sure comes up a lot. -) I too have started an engine with the cylinder completely full of nitrogen. Others have tried it and have sworn on all that is holy that it just will not work. Possibly a variation in the starting air distributor setting.

Bottom line though is that air is being ported into a cylinder that is on the firing stroke. Other pistons not being forced downward with the compressed gas are on the intake stroke and are pulling in the standard air/fuel mixture.

Regardless, during long periods of inactivity I have filled my tanks with water pumped nitrogen and have later started the engine. I admit it did not fire as quickly as it normally does, but it did start.... more than once.

Now lets talk about flight suits and parachutes.

Mark Bitterlich
N50YK

Wesley Warner <warner.wesley(at)gmail.com> wrote:
[quote]--> M14PEngines-List message posted by: "Wesley Warner"

I have started an M14P more than once with nitrogen. It worked just fine.

Wes
On 4/1/07, Steve Culp wrote:
[quote] Hi:

Welding companies have to by law have the contents of bottles marked and
the fittings are different. I was kinda suprised that someone would change
the fittings around to make this happen.

I would think he is very lucky no one was injured.

If the cylinder looks strange and does not have a label identifying the
contents I would not use it.

One of the most common mistakes is for people to use Nitrogen to try to
start the engine. Of course the engine won't start on an inert gas. But
they should get good oil pressure.

If in doubt hand prop the engine. M-14s prop pretty easy with two
people. One in the plane and one on the ground. If you are completely out
of air and the plane has air brakes tie the plane down to something
substantial.

I have propped a few planes by myself and you have to be real careful.
Probably a bad idea but sometimes you don't have a choice. I have installed
tow hooks on a couple of planes so the owners could carry some small pieces
of cable and just leave the cable behind after they started their planes.

Steve Culp

Scott Aldrich wrote:
--> M14PEngines-List message posted by: "Scott Aldrich"

I've spoken with the owner of the Moose mentioned below. Just to add a few
notes.

The air bottle is the new modern aluminum cylinder type and it is way in the
tail of his Moose - with it being so new and so far from the source of oily
air from the compressor it is pretty clean inside - that is why no problem
when the O2 initially pumped in.

Also all the damage was from the O2 exploding not any "back pressure" caused
by the backfire. Actually he is thinking no real back fire and the big
violent bang he heard was of course the manifold and everything blowing up.
To add to the damage mentioned below he has a stainless braided flex line
from the solenoids on the fire wall to the bottle in the tail - the
stainless braid was blown out all along this line too.

Of course he was assured multiply times that the bottle was "air" not O2.

How would one test to see if an unknown source was air or O2 in a situation
like this?

FWIW
Scott

--


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culpspecial(at)yahoo.com
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 5:36 am    Post subject: O2 in air tank?????? Reply with quote

Pretty brave words.
I have it on good authority that you can also use NOS to start them or in a pinch methane gas. I have even started them with high pressure water. Push starting also works but is hard on the rudder as you have to be pushed about 120.
Steve

George Coy <george(at)gesoco.com> wrote:
[quote] Mark,
A slight correction that probably would not change your theory, but air is also injected into the bottom cylinders during non expansion strokes to ostensibly blow out any oil or fuel that could cause hydrolock.
You can put me in the class that never has had any luck with nitrogen. I have started them with no air by my self by tying them down, suitably priming and pulling through by hand and leaving a cylinder at TDC. The shower of sparks will fire the cylinder and with luck or a few tries it will keep going. Keep it tied down until you get air pressure for brakes and the re start.

George

From: owner-m14pengines-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-m14pengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Yak Pilot
Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2007 2:15 AM
To: m14pengines-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: O2 in air tank??????

This topic sure comes up a lot. -) I too have started an engine with the cylinder completely full of nitrogen. Others have tried it and have sworn on all that is holy that it just will not work. Possibly a variation in the starting air distributor setting.

Bottom line though is that air is being ported into a cylinder that is on the firing stroke. Other pistons not being forced downward with the compressed gas are on the intake stroke and are pulling in the standard air/fuel mixture.

Regardless, during long periods of inactivity I have filled my tanks with water pumped nitrogen and have later started the engine. I admit it did not fire as quickly as it normally does, but it did start.... more than once.

Now lets talk about flight suits and parachutes.

Mark Bitterlich
N50YK

Wesley Warner <warner.wesley(at)gmail.com> wrote:
[quote]--> M14PEngines-List message posted by: "Wesley Warner"

I have started an M14P more than once with nitrogen. It worked just fine.

Wes
On 4/1/07, Steve Culp wrote:
[quote] Hi:

Welding companies have to by law have the contents of bottles marked and
the fittings are different. I was kinda suprised that someone would change
the fittings around to make this happen.

I would think he is very lucky no one was injured.

If the cylinder looks strange and does not have a label identifying the
contents I would not use it.

One of the most common mistakes is for people to use Nitrogen to try to
start the engine. Of course the engine won't start on an inert gas. But
they should get good oil pressure.

If in doubt hand prop the engine. M-14s prop pretty easy with two
people. One in the plane and one on the ground. If you are completely out
of air and the plane has air brakes tie the plane down to something
substantial.

I have propped a few planes by myself and you have to be real careful.
Probably a bad idea but sometimes you don't have a choice. I have installed
tow hooks on a couple of planes so the owners could carry some small pieces
of cable and just leave the cable behind after they started their planes.

Steve Culp

Scott Aldrich wrote:
--> M14PEngines-List message posted by: "Scott Aldrich"

I've spoken with the owner of the Moose mentioned below. Just to add a few
notes.

The air bottle is the new modern aluminum cylinder type and it is way in the
tail of his Moose - with it being so new and so far from the source of oily
air from the compressor it is pretty clean inside - that is why no problem
when the O2 initially pumped in.

Also all the damage was from the O2 exploding not any "back pressure" caused
by the backfire. Actually he is thinking no real back fire and the big
violent bang he heard was of course the manifold and everything blowing up.
To add to the damage mentioned below he has a stainless braided flex line
from the solenoids on the fire wall to the bottle in the tail - the
stainless braid was blown out all along this line too.

Of course he was assured multiply times that the bottle was "air" not O2.

How would one test to see if an unknown source was air or O2 in a situation
like this?

FWIW
Scott

--


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 6:19 am    Post subject: O2 in air tank?????? Reply with quote

I’ve started several times with nitrogen without problem, but never managed to start it by hand propping. And I’m too scared to use this method anyway. George’s method is more appealing to me. But how do you know that you’ve got a cylinder at TDC (without opening a cylinder; stupid question probably but hey, I’m only a simple guy J )

Jan Mevis
Yak 50
RA2005K


From: owner-m14pengines-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-m14pengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of George Coy
Sent: donderdag 12 april 2007 14:51
To: m14pengines-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: O2 in air tank??????


Mark,
A slight correction that probably would not change your theory, but air is also injected into the bottom cylinders during non expansion strokes to ostensibly blow out any oil or fuel that could cause hydrolock.
You can put me in the class that never has had any luck with nitrogen. I have started them with no air by my self by tying them down, suitably priming and pulling through by hand and leaving a cylinder at TDC. The shower of sparks will fire the cylinder and with luck or a few tries it will keep going. Keep it tied down until you get air pressure for brakes and the re start.

George

From: owner-m14pengines-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-m14pengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Yak Pilot
Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2007 2:15 AM
To: m14pengines-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: O2 in air tank??????
This topic sure comes up a lot. -) I too have started an engine with the cylinder completely full of nitrogen. Others have tried it and have sworn on all that is holy that it just will not work. Possibly a variation in the starting air distributor setting.



Bottom line though is that air is being ported into a cylinder that is on the firing stroke. Other pistons not being forced downward with the compressed gas are on the intake stroke and are pulling in the standard air/fuel mixture.



Regardless, during long periods of inactivity I have filled my tanks with water pumped nitrogen and have later started the engine. I admit it did not fire as quickly as it normally does, but it did start.... more than once.



Now lets talk about flight suits and parachutes.



Mark Bitterlich

N50YK

Wesley Warner <warner.wesley(at)gmail.com> wrote:
[quote]
--> M14PEngines-List message posted by: "Wesley Warner"

I have started an M14P more than once with nitrogen. It worked just fine.

Wes


On 4/1/07, Steve Culp wrote:
> Hi:
>
> Welding companies have to by law have the contents of bottles marked and
> the fittings are different. I was kinda suprised that someone would change
> the fittings around to make this happen.
>
> I would think he is very lucky no one was injured.
>
> If the cylinder looks strange and does not have a label identifying the
> contents I would not use it.
>
> One of the most common mistakes is for people to use Nitrogen to try to
> start the engine. Of course the engine won't start on an inert gas. But
> they should get good oil pressure.
>
> If in doubt hand prop the engine. M-14s prop pretty easy with two
> people. One in the plane and one on the ground. If you are completely out
> of air and the plane has air brakes tie the plane down to something
> substantial.
>
> I have propped a few planes by myself and you have to be real careful.
> Probably a bad idea but sometimes you don't have a choice. I have installed
> tow hooks on a couple of planes so the owners could carry some small pieces
> of cable and just leave the cable behind after they started their planes.
>
> Steve Culp
>
> Scott Aldrich wrote:
> --> M14PEngines-List message posted by: "Scott Aldrich"
>
> I've spoken with the owner of the Moose mentioned below. Just to add a few
> notes.
>
> The air bottle is the new modern aluminum cylinder type and it is way in the
> tail of his Moose - with it being so new and so far from the source of oily
> air from the compressor it is pretty clean inside - that is why no problem
> when the O2 initially pumped in.
>
> Also all the damage was from the O2 exploding not any "back pressure" caused
> by the backfire. Actually he is thinking no real back fire and the big
> violent bang he heard was of course the manifold and everything blowing up.
> To add to the damage mentioned below he has a stainless braided flex line
> from the solenoids on the fire wall to the bottle in the tail - the
> stainless braid was blown out all along this line too.
>
> Of course he was assured multiply times that the bottle was "air" not O2.
>
> How would one test to see if an unknown source was air or O2 in a situation
> like this?
>
> FWIW
> Scott
>
> --


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 10:57 am    Post subject: O2 in air tank?????? Reply with quote

Hello George,

Yes, I learned about that "purge" measure when we accidentally removed
too much of the tach generator gear assy, and had to retime the air
distributor. Isn't THAT a wonderful task? I have to admit throwing my
tools down in disgust on that episode. Sergei Boriak talked in Russian
on his cell for about an hour then came back and spent another 3 hours
messing with it, following which it worked.

Anyway, thanks for the correction. Bottom line, I can't explain for
sure why it works for me and not you.

Mark Bitterlich


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 10:58 am    Post subject: O2 in air tank?????? Reply with quote

Don't forget the rubber band method.
Mgb



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culpspecial(at)yahoo.com
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 11:15 am    Post subject: O2 in air tank?????? Reply with quote

I can speak from experience about the rubber bands. Always get help as I lost my footing and slipped when I was almost back to the plane with the rubber band which was under a lot of tension. I was drug 3200 feet! Launched me over the threshold of the runway and fortunatly no one was on final that day. It would have killed me if I had not been on sod.
Got to be careful.
Steve

"Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil> wrote:
[quote]--> M14PEngines-List message posted by: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E"

Don't forget the rubber band method.
Mgb

--


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george(at)gesoco.com
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 12:14 pm    Post subject: O2 in air tank?????? Reply with quote

Jan,
You can usually feel when the prop turns hard.

From: owner-m14pengines-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-m14pengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jan Mevis
Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2007 10:19 AM
To: m14pengines-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: O2 in air tank??????


I’ve started several times with nitrogen without problem, but never managed to start it by hand propping. And I’m too scared to use this method anyway. George’s method is more appealing to me. But how do you know that you’ve got a cylinder at TDC (without opening a cylinder; stupid question probably but hey, I’m only a simple guy J )

Jan Mevis
Yak 50
RA2005K


From: owner-m14pengines-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-m14pengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of George Coy
Sent: donderdag 12 april 2007 14:51
To: m14pengines-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: O2 in air tank??????


Mark,
A slight correction that probably would not change your theory, but air is also injected into the bottom cylinders during non expansion strokes to ostensibly blow out any oil or fuel that could cause hydrolock.
You can put me in the class that never has had any luck with nitrogen. I have started them with no air by my self by tying them down, suitably priming and pulling through by hand and leaving a cylinder at TDC. The shower of sparks will fire the cylinder and with luck or a few tries it will keep going. Keep it tied down until you get air pressure for brakes and the re start.

George

From: owner-m14pengines-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-m14pengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Yak Pilot
Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2007 2:15 AM
To: m14pengines-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: O2 in air tank??????
This topic sure comes up a lot. -) I too have started an engine with the cylinder completely full of nitrogen. Others have tried it and have sworn on all that is holy that it just will not work. Possibly a variation in the starting air distributor setting.



Bottom line though is that air is being ported into a cylinder that is on the firing stroke. Other pistons not being forced downward with the compressed gas are on the intake stroke and are pulling in the standard air/fuel mixture.



Regardless, during long periods of inactivity I have filled my tanks with water pumped nitrogen and have later started the engine. I admit it did not fire as quickly as it normally does, but it did start.... more than once.



Now lets talk about flight suits and parachutes.



Mark Bitterlich

N50YK

Wesley Warner <warner.wesley(at)gmail.com> wrote:
[quote]
--> M14PEngines-List message posted by: "Wesley Warner"

I have started an M14P more than once with nitrogen. It worked just fine.

Wes
On 4/1/07, Steve Culp wrote:
[quote] Hi:

Welding companies have to by law have the contents of bottles marked and
the fittings are different. I was kinda suprised that someone would change
the fittings around to make this happen.

I would think he is very lucky no one was injured.

If the cylinder looks strange and does not have a label identifying the
contents I would not use it.

One of the most common mistakes is for people to use Nitrogen to try to
start the engine. Of course the engine won't start on an inert gas. But
they should get good oil pressure.

If in doubt hand prop the engine. M-14s prop pretty easy with two
people. One in the plane and one on the ground. If you are completely out
of air and the plane has air brakes tie the plane down to something
substantial.

I have propped a few planes by myself and you have to be real careful.
Probably a bad idea but sometimes you don't have a choice. I have installed
tow hooks on a couple of planes so the owners could carry some small pieces
of cable and just leave the cable behind after they started their planes.

Steve Culp

Scott Aldrich wrote:
--> M14PEngines-List message posted by: "Scott Aldrich"

I've spoken with the owner of the Moose mentioned below. Just to add a few
notes.

The air bottle is the new modern aluminum cylinder type and it is way in the
tail of his Moose - with it being so new and so far from the source of oily
air from the compressor it is pretty clean inside - that is why no problem
when the O2 initially pumped in.

Also all the damage was from the O2 exploding not any "back pressure" caused
by the backfire. Actually he is thinking no real back fire and the big
violent bang he heard was of course the manifold and everything blowing up.
To add to the damage mentioned below he has a stainless braided flex line
from the solenoids on the fire wall to the bottle in the tail - the
stainless braid was blown out all along this line too.

Of course he was assured multiply times that the bottle was "air" not O2.

How would one test to see if an unknown source was air or O2 in a situation
like this?

FWIW
Scott

--


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jan.mevis(at)informavia.b
Guest





PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 8:48 pm    Post subject: O2 in air tank?????? Reply with quote

That’s what I figured. I’ll try it next time. Thanks !!


From: owner-m14pengines-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-m14pengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of George Coy
Sent: donderdag 12 april 2007 22:08
To: m14pengines-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: O2 in air tank??????


Jan,
You can usually feel when the prop turns hard.


From: owner-m14pengines-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-m14pengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jan Mevis
Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2007 10:19 AM
To: m14pengines-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: O2 in air tank??????
I’ve started several times with nitrogen without problem, but never managed to start it by hand propping. And I’m too scared to use this method anyway. George’s method is more appealing to me. But how do you know that you’ve got a cylinder at TDC (without opening a cylinder; stupid question probably but hey, I’m only a simple guy J )

Jan Mevis
Yak 50
RA2005K


From: owner-m14pengines-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-m14pengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of George Coy
Sent: donderdag 12 april 2007 14:51
To: m14pengines-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: O2 in air tank??????


Mark,
A slight correction that probably would not change your theory, but air is also injected into the bottom cylinders during non expansion strokes to ostensibly blow out any oil or fuel that could cause hydrolock.
You can put me in the class that never has had any luck with nitrogen. I have started them with no air by my self by tying them down, suitably priming and pulling through by hand and leaving a cylinder at TDC. The shower of sparks will fire the cylinder and with luck or a few tries it will keep going. Keep it tied down until you get air pressure for brakes and the re start.

George

From: owner-m14pengines-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-m14pengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Yak Pilot
Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2007 2:15 AM
To: m14pengines-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: O2 in air tank??????
This topic sure comes up a lot. -) I too have started an engine with the cylinder completely full of nitrogen. Others have tried it and have sworn on all that is holy that it just will not work. Possibly a variation in the starting air distributor setting.



Bottom line though is that air is being ported into a cylinder that is on the firing stroke. Other pistons not being forced downward with the compressed gas are on the intake stroke and are pulling in the standard air/fuel mixture.



Regardless, during long periods of inactivity I have filled my tanks with water pumped nitrogen and have later started the engine. I admit it did not fire as quickly as it normally does, but it did start.... more than once.



Now lets talk about flight suits and parachutes.



Mark Bitterlich

N50YK

Wesley Warner <warner.wesley(at)gmail.com> wrote:
[quote]
--> M14PEngines-List message posted by: "Wesley Warner"

I have started an M14P more than once with nitrogen. It worked just fine.

Wes


On 4/1/07, Steve Culp wrote:
> Hi:
>
> Welding companies have to by law have the contents of bottles marked and
> the fittings are different. I was kinda suprised that someone would change
> the fittings around to make this happen.
>
> I would think he is very lucky no one was injured.
>
> If the cylinder looks strange and does not have a label identifying the
> contents I would not use it.
>
> One of the most common mistakes is for people to use Nitrogen to try to
> start the engine. Of course the engine won't start on an inert gas. But
> they should get good oil pressure.
>
> If in doubt hand prop the engine. M-14s prop pretty easy with two
> people. One in the plane and one on the ground. If you are completely out
> of air and the plane has air brakes tie the plane down to something
> substantial.
>
> I have propped a few planes by myself and you have to be real careful.
> Probably a bad idea but sometimes you don't have a choice. I have installed
> tow hooks on a couple of planes so the owners could carry some small pieces
> of cable and just leave the cable behind after they started their planes.
>
> Steve Culp
>
> Scott Aldrich wrote:
> --> M14PEngines-List message posted by: "Scott Aldrich"
>
> I've spoken with the owner of the Moose mentioned below. Just to add a few
> notes.
>
> The air bottle is the new modern aluminum cylinder type and it is way in the
> tail of his Moose - with it being so new and so far from the source of oily
> air from the compressor it is pretty clean inside - that is why no problem
> when the O2 initially pumped in.
>
> Also all the damage was from the O2 exploding not any "back pressure" caused
> by the backfire. Actually he is thinking no real back fire and the big
> violent bang he heard was of course the manifold and everything blowing up.
> To add to the damage mentioned below he has a stainless braided flex line
> from the solenoids on the fire wall to the bottle in the tail - the
> stainless braid was blown out all along this line too.
>
> Of course he was assured multiply times that the bottle was "air" not O2.
>
> How would one test to see if an unknown source was air or O2 in a situation
> like this?
>
> FWIW
> Scott
>
> --


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