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Hall effect current sensor location

 
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hellothaimassage(at)yahoo
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 12:24 pm    Post subject: Hall effect current sensor location Reply with quote

I recently purchased a VM-1000C from Vision Microsystems. The directions say
to install the hall effect current sensor in the "cabin area." However, in
order to place it on the B-lead between the alternator and starter solenoid,
I'll have to mount it on the engine side of the firewall.

I called Vision and they said not to mount it on the engine side of the
firewall because the sensor is only rated to 150 degrees. On the other hand,
numerous pictures of other people's airplanes show hall effect sensors for
many different engine monitors (including the VM-1000) mounted on the engine
side of the firewall.

So what's the real story here?

Thanks.
-Geoff
RV-8


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nuckollsr(at)cox.net
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 6:20 pm    Post subject: Hall effect current sensor location Reply with quote

At 12:18 PM 2/3/2006 -0800, you wrote:

Quote:

<hellothaimassage(at)yahoo.com>

I recently purchased a VM-1000C from Vision Microsystems. The directions say
to install the hall effect current sensor in the "cabin area." However, in
order to place it on the B-lead between the alternator and starter solenoid,
I'll have to mount it on the engine side of the firewall.

I called Vision and they said not to mount it on the engine side of the
firewall because the sensor is only rated to 150 degrees. On the other hand,
numerous pictures of other people's airplanes show hall effect sensors for
many different engine monitors (including the VM-1000) mounted on the engine
side of the firewall.

So what's the real story here?

The story is that nobody has measured what the
real working environment temperatures are in
the proposed firewall mounting locations. Further,
while the device is rated for 150F operating, transients
of more than that (usually happen immediately following
shutdown) won't kill it.

Risks are low. Give it a try. Let's do some tests during
your fly-off to KNOW what you're dealing with. One of the
new products under development for the 'Connection website
is a 4-channel, 10-bit, A/D converter that runs from the
USB port of a laptop. We'll have a nice graphical user
interface to go with it. The price will be VERY attractive.
It's exactly what you need for this an other interesting
and informative experiments. Perhaps you can be my beta-customer.

In the mean time, anecdotal data suggest that the hall
effect sensors live happily on the firewall as long as they
don't get direct IR radiation from hot exhaust stacks.

Bob . . .
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >


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flyboy.bob(at)gmail.com
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 7:03 pm    Post subject: Hall effect current sensor location Reply with quote

I have an EIS from Advanced Flight Systems . . . their instruction
said the same thing and I had the same issue . . .

When I asked them . . . their bigger concern was moisture but said it
would be OK to mount it on the FW if I put it in a little enclosure to
protect it. They didn't mention the heat issue . . . I'm sure things
get warm especially on the ground on a hot day?!

Good Luck,
Bob

On 2/3/06, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> wrote:
Quote:


At 12:18 PM 2/3/2006 -0800, you wrote:

>
><hellothaimassage(at)yahoo.com>
>
>I recently purchased a VM-1000C from Vision Microsystems. The directions say
>to install the hall effect current sensor in the "cabin area." However, in
>order to place it on the B-lead between the alternator and starter solenoid,
>I'll have to mount it on the engine side of the firewall.
>
>I called Vision and they said not to mount it on the engine side of the
>firewall because the sensor is only rated to 150 degrees. On the other hand,
>numerous pictures of other people's airplanes show hall effect sensors for
>many different engine monitors (including the VM-1000) mounted on the engine
>side of the firewall.
>
>So what's the real story here?

The story is that nobody has measured what the
real working environment temperatures are in
the proposed firewall mounting locations. Further,
while the device is rated for 150F operating, transients
of more than that (usually happen immediately following
shutdown) won't kill it.

Risks are low. Give it a try. Let's do some tests during
your fly-off to KNOW what you're dealing with. One of the
new products under development for the 'Connection website
is a 4-channel, 10-bit, A/D converter that runs from the
USB port of a laptop. We'll have a nice graphical user
interface to go with it. The price will be VERY attractive.
It's exactly what you need for this an other interesting
and informative experiments. Perhaps you can be my beta-customer.

In the mean time, anecdotal data suggest that the hall
effect sensors live happily on the firewall as long as they
don't get direct IR radiation from hot exhaust stacks.

Bob . . .
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >




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nuckollsr(at)cox.net
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 8:18 pm    Post subject: Hall effect current sensor location Reply with quote

At 09:01 PM 2/3/2006 -0600, you wrote:

Quote:


I have an EIS from Advanced Flight Systems . . . their instruction
said the same thing and I had the same issue . . .

When I asked them . . . their bigger concern was moisture but said it
would be OK to mount it on the FW if I put it in a little enclosure to
protect it. They didn't mention the heat issue . . . I'm sure things
get warm especially on the ground on a hot day?!

Good Luck,
Bob

Interesting! Did they describe the enclosure that would
stand off moisture? I've got a bucket full of war stories
about various attempts and observations of the attempts of
others to deal with atmospheric moisture and moisture
sensitive electronics. Unless they described a very specific
technique for sealing the sensor from the environment, the
term "enclosure" would have been quite inadequate.

I'm 90% certain that these things will live under the cowl
just fine. We just need to do a little homework to confirm/
refine that perception.

Bob . . .


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dsvs(at)comcast.net
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 8:52 pm    Post subject: Hall effect current sensor location Reply with quote

Rob Hickman of Advanced Flight Systems told me to "pot" the entire circuit
board with an electronic type RTV. Dan Checkoway has over 800 hours on his
done this way. His is in the engine compartment.

--


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Dick Sipp



Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 215
Location: Hope, MI

PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 8:54 pm    Post subject: Hall effect current sensor location Reply with quote

Quote:
Interesting! Did they describe the enclosure that would
stand off moisture? I've got a bucket full of war stories
about various attempts and observations of the attempts of
others to deal with atmospheric moisture and moisture
sensitive electronics. Unless they described a very specific
technique for sealing the sensor from the environment, the
term "enclosure" would have been quite inadequate.

I'm 90% certain that these things will live under the cowl
just fine. We just need to do a little homework to confirm/
refine that perception.

Bob . . .

For one data point, I have had a Vision Micro Systems supplied hall effect
sensor mounted on an upper engine mount leg for 10 years and 700 hours with
no problems. We used two cushion clamps.

Dick Sipp


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brinker(at)cox-internet.c
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2006 4:56 pm    Post subject: Hall effect current sensor location Reply with quote

Is'nt a connection to a good hot 12v battery sufficient for the
layman ? I can see the need for a bench test unit if for a on going
business.

Randy

---


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nuckollsr(at)cox.net
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2006 5:27 pm    Post subject: Hall effect current sensor location Reply with quote

At 11:53 PM 2/3/2006 -0500, you wrote:

Quote:


> Interesting! Did they describe the enclosure that would
> stand off moisture? I've got a bucket full of war stories
> about various attempts and observations of the attempts of
> others to deal with atmospheric moisture and moisture
> sensitive electronics. Unless they described a very specific
> technique for sealing the sensor from the environment, the
> term "enclosure" would have been quite inadequate.
>
> I'm 90% certain that these things will live under the cowl
> just fine. We just need to do a little homework to confirm/
> refine that perception.
>
> Bob . . .

For one data point, I have had a Vision Micro Systems supplied hall effect
sensor mounted on an upper engine mount leg for 10 years and 700 hours with
no problems. We used two cushion clamps.

I would have bet some pretty good money that your
"experiment" would have been successful.

Bob . . .


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nuckollsr(at)cox.net
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2006 5:29 pm    Post subject: Hall effect current sensor location Reply with quote

At 08:51 PM 2/3/2006 -0800, you wrote:

Quote:


Rob Hickman of Advanced Flight Systems told me to "pot" the entire circuit
board with an electronic type RTV. Dan Checkoway has over 800 hours on his
done this way. His is in the engine compartment.

Yuk! Moisture PROOFING is a mixture of art and science
and many attempts at sealing and/or potting can actually
make vulnerability to effects of moisture worse.

Until we make some temperature measurements that suggest
otherwise, I gotta believe that the critter will live
just fine on the firewall.

Bob . . .


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bushpilot(at)optonline.ne
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 7:13 am    Post subject: Hall Effect Current Sensor Location Reply with quote

Bob,

My electrical design will be the Z-14 Dual Battery, Dual Alternator, Split Bus. The engine will be an IO-320 with a FADEC control. I am also planning on using two Hall Effect Current Sensors that will feed into the Blue Mountain EFIS.

Question: Is the best place to locate the current sensors on the output side (B) on each alternator similar to what you show in Z-12?

Thanks,
Johnathan
Glastar #5731


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nuckollsr(at)cox.net
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 8:42 am    Post subject: Hall Effect Current Sensor Location Reply with quote

At 10:12 AM 2/5/2006 -0500, you wrote:

Quote:

<bushpilot(at)optonline.net>

Bob,

My electrical design will be the Z-14 Dual Battery, Dual Alternator, Split
Bus. The engine will be an IO-320 with a FADEC control. I am also planning
on using two Hall Effect Current Sensors that will feed into the Blue
Mountain EFIS.

Question: Is the best place to locate the current sensors on the output
side (B) on each alternator similar to what you show in Z-12?

Depends on what you want to measure along with your
understanding of what the readings mean. I've seen
hall effects installed over battery cables, bus feeders
and alternator b-leads. Each location provides a reading
that has some behavior and significance useful for
troubleshooting the ailing system but none provide
data useful for operating the airplane.

My personal choice would be to monitor alternator
output (sensors on b-leads). But if I had to work on
an airplane where the sensors were someplace else,
it would be essential to know WHERE the sensors are
so that the readings have diagnostic significance.

It's a toss of the coin and/or a purely personal
choice.

Bob . . .
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >


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brian



Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 643
Location: Sacramento, California, USA

PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 9:30 am    Post subject: Hall effect current sensor location Reply with quote

Brinker wrote:
Quote:


Is'nt a connection to a good hot 12v battery sufficient for the
layman ? I can see the need for a bench test unit if for a on going
business.

When testing out your panel it is nice to have an adjustable power
supply. First, it doesn't do your battery any good to run it down and
recharge unless it is a deep-cycle battery.

With a variable bench supply you can test things at various voltages
such as 13.8V (alternator working), 12.5V (full battery), and 10.5V
(dead battery). You will be surprised at how badly many pieces of
equipment work at low voltage and you may want to resize your battery to
ensure that you have sufficient voltage for your specified endurance period.

You can also hook your bench supply up to the alternator 'B' lead and
test your loadmeter, battery charging, etc. By varying the voltage from
the bench supply and watching the field current you can verify that the
voltage regulator is functioning normally.

--
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)

I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery


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_________________
Brian Lloyd
brian-yak at lloyd dot com
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)

I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
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jschroeder(at)perigee.net
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 10:43 am    Post subject: Hall Effect Current Sensor Location Reply with quote

Jonathan -

We have the very same electrical system and EFIS in our Lancair ES (not
flying yet). We have the non-FADEC IO-550N, although we had a FADEC on
order. We installed two current sensors - one on each feed from the
alternator/battery connection to its respective buss. This gives us the
load on each buss under normal flight. However, it does not provide the
load on the batteries because of the battery busses. I'm guessing you'll
have one channel of the FADEC on each battery buss and feeding to its
control unit via a switch on the panel. Unless you want to install 4 hall
effect modules, I would still recommend putting the two where we did. You
will probably never cut electrical load by turning off one channel of the
FADEC, so you know what that current draw will always be. So, you can
mentally add it to the readings on the E1. The rest of battery buss stuff
is very low draw and switchable.

When it comes to wiring the sensors, make sure you ground the voltage
dividers to the EFIS ground via a ground pin on either Analog 1 or Analog
2 or Analog 3 (if you have it). We also temporarily wired an ammeter into
the feed lines to the busses and turned on each item on that buss to get
its amps draw. We then turned on the E! in the calibrate mode and turned
each device on and read its AD number. This gave us a good calibration
table and the amps read pretty accurately.

Hope this helps.

John Schroeder
Lancair ES - painting 65% complete
http://w1.lancair.net/pix/jschroeder
On Sun, 05 Feb 2006 10:12:22 -0500, JOHNATHAN MACY
<bushpilot(at)optonline.net> wrote:

Quote:

<bushpilot(at)optonline.net>

Bob,

My electrical design will be the Z-14 Dual Battery, Dual Alternator,
Split Bus. The engine will be an IO-320 with a FADEC control. I am also
planning on using two Hall Effect Current Sensors that will feed into
the Blue Mountain EFIS.

Question: Is the best place to locate the current sensors on the output
side (B) on each alternator similar to what you show in Z-12?

Thanks,
Johnathan
Glastar #5731


--


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