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markn(at)fuse.net Guest
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Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2006 5:49 am Post subject: Bird Strikes |
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Sorry for venturing off-topic, but one question:
How frequent is a bird strike to the windscreen when said avian creature
must first pass through the 76" diameter, 180 HP meat grinder? I can see
this being more of an issue with twins (just a nosecone up front), but I
thought a single engine plane would be pretty safe from this problem.
Mark Neubauer
GlaStar 875ED
25 hours
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harley(at)AgelessWings.co Guest
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Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2006 6:04 am Post subject: Bird Strikes |
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Morning, Mark...
>>first pass through the 76" diameter, 180 HP meat grinder?<<
I guess if I had a Glastar, that would be my first thought as well...but
a lot of us here have pushers! Long EZs, VariEzes, Berkuts, Velocities,
E-Racers, etc. etc. And the first thing we think of is birds in the
canopy and stones in the prop!
Harley Dixon
Mark Neubauer wrote:
Quote: |
Sorry for venturing off-topic, but one question:
How frequent is a bird strike to the windscreen when said avian creature
must first pass through the 76" diameter, 180 HP meat grinder? I can see
this being more of an issue with twins (just a nosecone up front), but I
thought a single engine plane would be pretty safe from this problem.
Mark Neubauer
GlaStar 875ED
25 hours
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alexpeterson(at)earthlink Guest
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Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2006 6:15 am Post subject: Bird Strikes |
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Quote: |
--> <markn(at)fuse.net>
Sorry for venturing off-topic, but one question:
How frequent is a bird strike to the windscreen when said
avian creature must first pass through the 76" diameter, 180
HP meat grinder? I can see this being more of an issue with
twins (just a nosecone up front), but I thought a single
engine plane would be pretty safe from this problem.
Mark Neubauer
GlaStar 875ED
25 hours
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The bird is unlikely to hit the propellor. For example, at 2400 rpm and 140
knots, a blade (two bladed prop) comes by every 4 feet of forward travel.
2400rev/min*1min/60sec=40revs/second. For two blades, 80 blades/second.
140knots*1.15mph/knot*88feet/sec/60mph=236ft/sec.
236ft/sec/80blade/sec=4feet/blade. Slower planes: it is obviously more
likely to hit the prop, but chances are still that it will pass through the
blades.
I consider bird strikes among the higher risk items, particularly when I fly
near lakes, which Minnesota tends to have. I have seen many birds pass
within 50 feet of the plane, and usually one only has about a second of
seeing them before passing them. I found myself amongst hundreds of flocks
of dozens of pelicans one time near Aberdeen SD (major flyway). These can
be seen from quite far away, but it really got my attention. BTW, this was
at about 2000agl. I've encountered pelicans at 6000agl.
Alex Peterson
RV6-A N66AP 710 hours
Maple Grove, MN
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Bruce(at)glasair.org Guest
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Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2006 6:30 am Post subject: Bird Strikes |
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Oh, I am so glad I have a 1/2 inch thick windshield. Just remember, if the
bird sees you, he's more than likely to dive.
Bruce
www.glasair.org
--
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Bill Denton
Joined: 10 Jan 2006 Posts: 97 Location: Chicago, IL USA
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Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2006 7:33 am Post subject: Bird Strikes |
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It appears you are ignoring the length of the bird...
--
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khorton01(at)rogers.com Guest
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Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2006 7:53 am Post subject: Bird Strikes |
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On 29 Jan 2006, at 08:47, Mark Neubauer wrote:
Quote: |
<markn(at)fuse.net>
Sorry for venturing off-topic, but one question:
How frequent is a bird strike to the windscreen when said avian
creature
must first pass through the 76" diameter, 180 HP meat grinder? I
can see
this being more of an issue with twins (just a nosecone up front),
but I
thought a single engine plane would be pretty safe from this problem.
|
Search the RV-List archives for bird strike. Look for posts from
Laird Owens, Dec 2000 (account of hawk through an RV-6 canopy)
Doug Weiler, Aug 1996 (account of dove through an RV-4 canopy)
And go to the account of John Perri's bird strike story with his RV-6:
http://home.hiwaay.net/~sbuc/journal/bird.html
The prop provides very, very little protection from a bird strike.
Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit)
Ottawa, Canada
http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8
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alexpeterson(at)earthlink Guest
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Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2006 8:19 am Post subject: Bird Strikes |
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Quote: |
--> <bdenton(at)bdenton.com>
It appears you are ignoring the length of the bird...
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No. Most birds are small compared to four feet, so they will more likely
than not pass through the prop unscathed. For the case of a large bird,
should it hit the prop, the remaining two chunks will still likely hit the
windscreen if they were in line with it. I would not want to even have a
sparrow hit the windscreen. See Kevin's post and dig in the archives.
Alex Peterson
RV6-A N66AP 710 hours
Maple Grove, MN
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ogoodwin(at)comcast.net Guest
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Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2006 9:32 am Post subject: Bird Strikes |
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I know a guy that took a great horned owl through the windshield of a super cub. The good news is the owl somehow missed him, but the bad news was that the owl survived for a while and was pretty irritated.
As for how often: thinking back over the years, I'd guess I've had at least 2 strikes on the windshield (of a B 727 or similar) a year, mostly at night and always lit up all the way across the front of the airplane. I'm not sure the lights help, I wonder if the birds aren't disoriented by them (deer in the headlights). Although I'm going faster than an RV or most light aircraft, the speed is always 250K or less, so it's not that much difference.
Bottom line, to me, is that if you fly much you WILL take a bird in the cockpit area. If you're lucky, it'll be a sparrow. If not, something larger.
Olen Goodwin
do not archive
-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Harley <harley(at)AgelessWings.com>
Quote: |
Morning, Mark...
>>first pass through the 76" diameter, 180 HP meat grinder?<<
I guess if I had a Glastar, that would be my first thought as well...but
a lot of us here have pushers! Long EZs, VariEzes, Berkuts, Velocities,
E-Racers, etc. etc. And the first thing we think of is birds in the
canopy and stones in the prop!
Harley Dixon
Mark Neubauer wrote:
>
>
>Sorry for venturing off-topic, but one question:
>
>How frequent is a bird strike to the windscreen when said avian creature
>must first pass through the 76" diameter, 180 HP meat grinder? I can see
>this being more of an issue with twins (just a nosecone up front), but I
>thought a single engine plane would be pretty safe from this problem.
>
>Mark Neubauer
>GlaStar 875ED
>25 hours
>
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>
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brian
Joined: 02 Jan 2006 Posts: 643 Location: Sacramento, California, USA
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Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2006 11:06 am Post subject: Bird Strikes |
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Mark Neubauer wrote:
Quote: |
Sorry for venturing off-topic, but one question:
How frequent is a bird strike to the windscreen when said avian creature
must first pass through the 76" diameter, 180 HP meat grinder? I can see
this being more of an issue with twins (just a nosecone up front), but I
thought a single engine plane would be pretty safe from this problem.
|
Consider the width of the blade compared to the area of the propeller
disk. A lot is going to get through. 2500 RPM is 42 RPS. With a
two-bladed prop that is 84 blades-per-second. The "hole" between blades
going by is then open for 12 ms.
If the bird is traveling at 160 kts or 370 fps and has a length of 1
foot, it is going to take 3.7 ms to pass through your prop arc. That
implies to me that most birds will likely pass through your prop arc
without ever being touched by a prop blade.
And it doesn't matter that much that the prop chops said bird into two
pieces. The combined momentum of the two pieces doesn't change and will
still likely hit your windscreen with effectively the same impact.
My guess is that it doesn't matter one bit. That sucker is still going
to give your windscreen one hell of a whack.
--
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
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_________________ Brian Lloyd
brian-yak at lloyd dot com
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery |
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brian
Joined: 02 Jan 2006 Posts: 643 Location: Sacramento, California, USA
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Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2006 11:15 am Post subject: Bird Strikes |
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ogoodwin(at)comcast.net wrote:
Quote: | Bottom line, to me, is that if you fly much you WILL take a bird in the cockpit area. If you're lucky, it'll be a sparrow. If not, something larger.
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I took a sea gull in the wing of a Grumman Tiger on take off. I was at
about 80 kts and the sucker was sitting on the runway. He decided to fly
out of the way as I was on my takeoff roll. I didn't even know I had hit
him until I got to my destination and went to put the airplane away.
The leading edge of the wing was crushed. We were able to carefully
hammer the leading edge back into shape. Fortunately it was between ribs
so the structure was still sound. Had a rib been crushed I would have
been looking at a totaled airplane as it would have needed a new wing.
And that was only at 80 kts.
--
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
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_________________ Brian Lloyd
brian-yak at lloyd dot com
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery |
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warner.wesley(at)gmail.co Guest
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Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2006 12:02 pm Post subject: Bird Strikes |
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Just an FYI. I had my first strike a few months ago. I was flying a
twin that has 4-blade props with the blade width approx. 6", turning
1700RPM. The bird went through the propeller leaving no trace on the
blades. It made a pretty decent sized dent in the leading edge of the
wing. Wes
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nuckollsr(at)cox.net Guest
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Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2006 12:58 pm Post subject: Bird Strikes |
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At 05:30 PM 1/29/2006 +0000, you wrote:
Quote: | Bottom line, to me, is that if you fly much you WILL take a bird in the
cockpit area. If you're lucky, it'll be a sparrow. If not, something larger.
Olen Goodwin
do not archive
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Some years ago a Beech Employees Flying Club member and passenger were
coming
back to Beech Field in an A36 one evening. They encountered a formation
of geese just south of Wichita. Took out the windshield, did a lot of
damage to folks in front seats and filled the front seat with goose parts.
Pilot managed to land and everyone (but the geese) was attended to and
recovered. Airplane took a dozen or more hits along leading edge
of wing. Some with sufficient force to mash leading edge back to
the spar. Insurance company totaled the airplane. BEFC bought it back
from insurance company at salvage price and our mechanics took a year+
to rebuild it. I think that airplane is still in the fleet. It's amazing
how much damage the airplane and folks took and still walked away from it.
The geese that hang around here in winter time love to do night
recon flights over the city. I often hear formations going over at night.
They're probably our most significant airborne hazard around here this time
of year.
Bob . . .
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jj(at)sdf.lonestar.org Guest
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Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2006 1:20 pm Post subject: Bird Strikes |
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I had my first bird strike about a year ago. Taxiing for TO on a grass
strip in a Champ, there was a group of Canadian geese on the side of the
strip. All of a sudden they decided to charge! One had just became
airborn about the time he smashed into the side of the cowling. It hit the
prop, feathers everywere. I stopped the airplane and got out to inspect the
damage. Nice sized dent in the cowl popped back out ok. Blood and crap all
down the side of the plane.
Walked over to where the runway was covered with feathers and found a
wing. The geese were walking away down the edge of the strip. I'm sure one
was telling the others "damn that hurt!"
I've been keeping an eye out for that one armed goose but have never seen
it since...
Joel Jacobs
Do Not Archive
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ceengland(at)bellsouth.ne Guest
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Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2006 6:27 pm Post subject: Bird Strikes |
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Brian Lloyd wrote:
Quote: |
Mark Neubauer wrote:
>
>
>Sorry for venturing off-topic, but one question:
>
>How frequent is a bird strike to the windscreen when said avian creature
>must first pass through the 76" diameter, 180 HP meat grinder? I can see
>this being more of an issue with twins (just a nosecone up front), but I
>thought a single engine plane would be pretty safe from this problem.
>
>
Consider the width of the blade compared to the area of the propeller
disk. A lot is going to get through. 2500 RPM is 42 RPS. With a
two-bladed prop that is 84 blades-per-second. The "hole" between blades
going by is then open for 12 ms.
If the bird is traveling at 160 kts or 370 fps and has a length of 1
foot, it is going to take 3.7 ms to pass through your prop arc. That
implies to me that most birds will likely pass through your prop arc
without ever being touched by a prop blade.
And it doesn't matter that much that the prop chops said bird into two
pieces. The combined momentum of the two pieces doesn't change and will
still likely hit your windscreen with effectively the same impact.
My guess is that it doesn't matter one bit. That sucker is still going
to give your windscreen one hell of a whack.
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And then there's the very large body of empirical evidence....
I've personally seen a 'duck shaped' 6-8" deep dent in the leading edge
of my neighbor's Bonanza wing, next to the fuselage & within the prop
arc. Ponder the impact needed to crush the curved leading edge of a wing
that deep.
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