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METRIC!

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VE3LVO(at)rac.ca
Guest

Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2006 7:35 pm Post subject: METRIC!

to BOB and ERIC,

        I enjoy reading your epithets, one and another. It's a bit like 

watching two goliaths (or mebbe even Universe Wrestling Finals), especially 

when we read of the difficulties in changing systems.



[1]    Ontario province followed the Uk in accepting A2 metric paper sizes, 

and finally abandonned the practice after a number of years - not their 

money!

[2]    We've switched to kilometers - the Quebeckers are still trying tell 

us how to pronounce them (by ignoring English pronunciation rules) - but we 

still get speeding tickets......

[3]    We're on Celsius - so what? Pilots have been translating in their 

heads for 9 decades..... Try cruising in meters ASL.

[4]    All these creaking Imperial-based milling machines aren't selling 

ovewrseas are they?

[5]    The Brits for all their 'forward-thinking' stance still drive in 

...... miles(?)

[6]    One old Brit sweetheart said, "Why don't they wait until all us old 

folk are dead?"



Ferg Kyle

Europa A064 914 Classic

peter(at)sportingaero.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 6:17 am Post subject: METRIC!

I've also enjoyed reading this discussion and offer this. I was brought up

(in England) on feet & inches, converted to metric at secondary/high school

and used metric (mostly) through college. At work we were building two

aircraft, one measured in imperial (Harrier) and the other in metric (Hawk),

it wasn't a huge deal for me as I was straight out of college. Some of the

older folks did struggle, and pretty much all of the older (WWII) vintage

machine tools were in inches while the newer ones were metric, or had both

scales - of course the NC machines could change at the touch of a button.

Now I'm back to imperial as I've been working in the US for 4 years.



The biggest single benefit to working in metric is in the engineering

department where F=ma actually makes sense using Newtons as a measure of

force. Ibf have always been a rather dumb cludge, I never got used to using

slugs as a measure of mass when doing stress calcs, and always had to look

up the crib sheet for how to work the equations. Yes, there are still traps

for the unwary - the basic lift and drag equations are a good example - but

the pretty much whole Hawker engineering department adopted the metric

system quickly (but there wasn't any choice, they may have been smart enough

to realize that!). As the AV-8B Harrier is still imperial the situation

hasn't changed 25 years on, but most of the engineering is done in metric

and converted at the last moment when required.



The other issue is that GA is unlikely to convert to metric any time soon

while about 95% of the fleet uses metric hardware. I have owned French and

German aeroplanes, obtaining reasonable grade metric hardware (even in

Europe) can be difficult. I'm quite happy using either side of the ruler

when fixing my RV, sometimes metric is easier, sometimes imperial. I'm sure

that many people in the US are comfortable working in metric judging by the

number of Japanese cars on the road. Just become ambidextrous and use the

most appropriate system for the task at hand.



Yours, Pete



--

kayce33(at)earthlink.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 6:51 am Post subject: METRIC!

Hi Fergus,

Are they still using " x # of yards to the exit" in Wales?

That's the one that threw me some years ago.

Harold Kovac

---

Eric M. Jones

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 565
Location: Massachusetts

Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 8:13 am Post subject: Re: METRIC!

Deciding questions of this nature based on their "economics" is, in general, impossible and INSANE. The most important things are invisible.



E.g. Drills: Inch (non-system)= 3, 7/32", 2, 1, A, 15/64", 6 mm, B, C... (okay so that's what's in MY shop and probably most shops). Metric 5.4, 5.5, 5.6, 5.7...etc. What is the economic impact?



I buy 4 mm titanium sheet to replace a Glastar 3/16 inch stainless part. (P.S. Only my Swiss customers object, everyone else ignores the difference in thickness). There IS no 3/16 titanium sheet. What is the economic impact?



All science is done in metric. What is the economic impact if you don't go along?



There IS and never was an inch "system". There IS a metric system. What is the economic impact?



Metric is based on mass and U.S. weights and measures is based on weight. Now what is the economic impact? Does it matter where you live? If a 1000 kilogram spaceship lands on the Sun (okay, at night) what does it weigh? What's it's mass?



"NASA reports that they've found the cause for the loss of the Mars Climate Orbiter. One of the engineering teams was using English units and another team was using Metric units." Now what was the economic impact?



Saying big grown-up words like "economic impact" makes one LOOK like he actually knows something whereas--they are just boardroom mumbo-jumbos targeted to get knowing nods from the clueless stock-optioned MBAs who run our companies, but are totally BS (and that doesn't mean British Standard or Brown and Sharpe).



Most studies of the "economic impact of changes" restrict their scope to very narrow (and short-term) economic issues. --Because that is the only place where those studies are reasonably successful.



As you can probably tell, I advocate metrication strongly, but I can't tell you if any particular company or product should change or not.  The economic impact in the long term for the hubris of thinking the US can do things however it likes, is very large.



"Mankind faces a cross-roads.

 One path leads to despair and utter hopelessness.

 The other, to total extinction.

 Let us pray we have the wisdom to choose correctly."

       --Woody Allen

_________________
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net

cjensen(at)dts9000.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 8:51 am Post subject: METRIC!

Eric,



In reading your post, my eyes glazed over but I get the idea (I think!).

I can answer one of your questions, to wit:



"Metric is based on mass and U.S. weights and measures is based on

weight. Now what is the economic impact? Does it matter where you live?

If a 1000 kilogram spaceship lands on the Sun (okay, at night) what does

it weigh? What's it's mass?"



So, what does it weigh?  Well, therein lies the problem---because it

depends.  As it travels through space, it will 'weigh' next to nothing,

however, as it approaches the sun, it will 'weigh' a humongus amount.

However, the mass will never change, even when it is vaporized by the

sun (whether it's day or night).



I concur with your conclusion (not that anybody cares) that the U.S.

standing tall with the English system is counter-productive and probably

fool hardy in the long run.  The problem is, when 'economic impact' is

used to justify change, studies of the cost to change a bolt, washer or

nut never results in a justification for change...too costly, too much

bother.  The flaw in this approach is study of 'micro economic impact'

will rarely allow one to properly and adequately assess the 'macro

economic impact' of the same phenomena. It's the same problem as

inspecting one square inch of an elephant's leg will not tell you much

about the elephant.



Of course, there is a very good reason why we will never go metric.  Can

you imagine the game announcer breathlessly exclaiming that "the kick

return just ran the ball back for 91.44 meters for a touchdown."  Some

things are sacred and simply can't be touched, so hands-off all you

Metric-Sexuals.



Chuck Jensen

For goodness sake, Do Not Archive 

--

nuckollsr(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 9:13 am Post subject: METRIC!

At 08:13 AM 11/19/2006 -0800, you wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



Deciding questions of this nature based on their "economics" is, in 

general, impossible and INSANE. The most important things are invisible.


	




    So what is your prescription sir? Assume

    your assertions about economics and consumer

    driven marketplaces are as trivial as you

    suggest. Assume further that the only impediment

    to progress is fear and ignorance, now what?

    Nobody is arguing against the elegance of the metric

    measurement system.



    You've not answered my questions as to your

    vision to the path for success. What would

    you have us do? If you're going to codify

    an effort to shepherd reluctant grooms to

    the altar, is it your vision that men with

    guns should be standing behind them?

    Short of that, what alternatives would you

    suggest and by what means would they be

    accomplished?



    If your energetic protestations carry any

    weight sir, they should be supported by workable

    alternatives. Alternatives permitted in a

    society where folks still enjoy some degree of

    freedom and liberty.



    Bob . . .

Eric M. Jones

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 565
Location: Massachusetts

Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 11:34 am Post subject: Re: METRIC!

 	  Quote: 	
		  Bob says...So what is your prescription sir? Assume 

your assertions about economics and consumer 

driven marketplaces are as trivial as you 

suggest. Assume further that the only impediment 

to progress is fear and ignorance, now what? 

Nobody is arguing against the elegance of the metric 

measurement system. 	




Lucky for me, I don't need to have a prescription to know that there IS one. I also know that any prescription I have will be both correct and voted down. It's that Cassandra-thing, and the reason I stay off committees. 



I realize that some upset will occur. I also know some people in the US are working on the issue--and good luck to them.  The European experience of single currency, single laws, no passports gives me hope that miracles happen. 



I was frankly baffled when the ISO Quality stuff and the NAFTA stuff didn't have a metric provision. That would have been an easy way to go metric.



When I converted the last place I worked to metric, I finally did it by a short simple decree, written by me but signed by the big cheese. This seemed the only practical way forward. I distributed NBS metrication literature kits and Bossard catalogs and alerted our fastener vendors and machining vendors. But what we did was worldwide scientific and medical devices so this was pretty straighforward. Some of it was a godsend, since we had spent too much time converting units--some units had gone from Inch to Metric to Inch to Metric several times. We encouraged thinking in metric and it became a little game. We discouraged doing conversions and banned double-dimensioning in most cases. NEW projects were metric; legacy designs were left as-is until major redesign was due.



I frankly don't know how other companies would handle the conversion. Aircraft industries might be more difficult than others, but perhaps not. Computers were metric from the beginning with some legacy 6-32 screws here and there. A 5-1/4" diskette is really a 135 mm diskette. A 3-1/2" diskette is really a 90 mm diskette.



 	  Quote: 	
		  You've not answered my questions as to your 

vision to the path for success. .....snip 

Short of that, what alternatives would you 

suggest and by what means would they be 

accomplished?  	




Cooler heads than yours and mine can decide.



"The despotism of custom is everywhere the standing hindrance to human advancement."

   --John Stuart Mill

_________________
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net

Kellym

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1700
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 2:27 pm Post subject: METRIC!

As usual, Bob was/is right. There is virtually NO metric in electricity, 

and very little in US made aircraft.  Your wire gauge is what?? 

Something like AWG? Your metric volts and amps and ohms are what? So it 

is kinda pointless to argue further, at least on this list.

Eric M. Jones wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Deciding questions of this nature based on their "economics" is, in general, impossible and INSANE. The most important things are invisible.

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD

nuckollsr(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 2:36 pm Post subject: METRIC!

At 11:34 AM 11/19/2006 -0800, you wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



Lucky for me, I don't need to have a prescription to know that there IS 

one. I also know that any prescription I have will be both correct and 

voted down. It's that Cassandra-thing, and the reason I stay off committees.



I realize that some upset will occur. I also know some people in the US 

are working on the issue--and good luck to them.  The European experience 

of single currency, single laws, no passports gives me hope that miracles 

happen.



I was frankly baffled when the ISO Quality stuff and the NAFTA stuff 

didn't have a metric provision. That would have been an easy way to go metric.


	


    Really? You say you don't need to have a prescription but

    suggest that the ISO or NAFTA decrees would be "an easy

    way to go metric". So your suggestion is to mandate by

    regulation. Who are the guardians of the rules? Who

    are the enforcers? Who will be the judges and how is

    punishment for transgression to be handed out?

 	  Quote: 	
		  When I converted the last place I worked to metric, I finally did it by a 

short simple decree, written by me but signed by the big cheese. This 

seemed the only practical way forward. I distributed NBS metrication 

literature kits and Bossard catalogs and alerted our fastener vendors and 

machining vendors. But what we did was worldwide scientific and medical 

devices so this was pretty straighforward. Some of it was a godsend, since 

we had spent too much time converting units--some units had gone from Inch 

to Metric to Inch to Metric several times. We encouraged thinking in 

metric and it became a little game. We discouraged doing conversions and 

banned double-dimensioning in most cases. NEW projects were metric; legacy 

designs were left as-is until major redesign was due.


	


    If the task was to convert a single business where

    the customer base didn't care how you measured things,

    yes . . . it would be very easy.



 	  Quote: 	
		  I frankly don't know how other companies would handle the conversion. 

Aircraft industries might be more difficult than others, but perhaps not.


	


    Not perhaps . . . it IS so. In spite of the fact that one faction

    of government may embrace and even decree the language by which its

    subjects  measure things, there are other factions that will make it

    exceedingly laborious (read $expensive$). And that still leaves

    us with a legacy fleet of aircraft with some models pushing

    50 years old. ISO was decreed the way to go and made defacto

    law by European companies that vowed to buy no more of our products

    again until we did the ISO-thing. Here we are about 10-12 years

    later. We proudly inscribe our sales literature with the Good

    ISO-keeping Seal of Approval but do our airplanes fly better, cost

    less to own and operate or last longer? Not such as I can see. In

    fact, the prices continue to go up for reasons unrelated to the

    creative or customer service efforts. A component of those increases

    included achievement and maintenance of the ISO blessings. There

    might be some value in the ISO-label. If some folk are inclined

    to buy a $100 pair of sneakers 'cause some ball player says

    they're good, there are probably folks who would feel better

    about buying our airplanes because the ISO stickers are found

    on them somewhere.



    ISO is an example of how market pressures brought about an

    almost world-wide change in manufacturing group-think.

    Punishment was a reduction in marketability of one's product

    not because it suddenly fails to meet demands of the user

    but because the PROCESS by which it was produced didn't meet

    the demands of an organization. How's that for back-door

    totalitarianism shrouded in "quality assurance" terms?



    Had the ISO package included a go-metric provision

    I suppose US aviation and most other industries would have

    toed the line. After all, their competitors were having

    to do it too so at least all boats were burdened with the

    same ballast. But for all the new and expense layers

    of bureaucracy generated, the service value of our products

    would not have changed one bit.



    I wonder if Dr. Eling's microscopes bore the Good

    ISO-keeping Seal of Approval. I'd almost bet they didn't

    because it wasn't necessary. His goal was to be the best

    there was at doing his thing and if you wanted the best,

    here it is . . . and ISO blessings, metric or otherwise

    wouldn't have made it any better.



    So if there are no universal recipes for success and no

    prescriptions that a free society would tolerate, then perhaps

    all the cabbage tossing is about as useful as railing about the

    cancer, earthquakes, or tornadoes.  Certainly accusing

    a non-compliant of being un-washed and suffering from ignorance

    or fear is shallow, disingenuous and patently incorrect.

    Bob . . .

Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-greno
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 2:44 pm Post subject: METRIC!

Kelly and all,

 	  Quote: 	
		    There is virtually NO metric in electricity,


	


I beg to differ.

The system you call "metric" is in fact named "Systeme International" or SI.

Volts, amperes, ohms are part of SI.



The SI comprises of  7 fundamental units : meter, kilogram, second, 

ampere, kelvin, mole, candela. The others (volt, ohm, siemens, farad...) 

are derived units.

As far as I know, electricity happens to be one branch of physics where 

everyone in the world uses the same units 



Best regards,

Gilles

http://contrails.free.fr

echristley(at)nc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 7:52 am Post subject: METRIC!

 	  Quote: 	
		  

--> <emjones(at)charter.net>



Saying big grown-up words like "economic impact" makes one LOOK like he

actually knows something whereas--they are just boardroom mumbo-jumbos

targeted to get knowing nods from the clueless stock-optioned MBAs who

run our companies, but are totally BS (and that doesn't mean British

Standard or Brown and Sharpe).

  




	


The 'economic impact' is that I would have to go out and find metric AN 

hardware for my project, redrill all the holes, and physically swap all 

the hardware out.  At that point, I have to again find the metric stuff 

whenever I do maintenance.  I, like every other builder I know, would 

prefer to just say, "You first."  If I were running a company that built 

water heaters, every one of them would go out the door with fitting that 

matched what is commonly available at Lowe's and Home Depot;  otherwise, 

I'd quickly be out of business.  May not be a national impact, but my 

family wouldn't appreciate how much of a patriot I was trying to be.  If 

I were running a company that made lawn mowers, every bolt hole would be 

tapped to match the hardware that was on the shelves of Ace Hardware.  

Same logic.  You call it micro-economics.  I call it feeding my family.



Stop calling people clueless.  It is not about metric vs the English 

system (and it is a system, no matter how convoluted it is).  The debate 

is a about a new, more efficient infrastructure that was designed vs an 

older, ingrained one that just grew out of nothing.  Why wasn't the 

legacy system well thought out and logical like the metric system?  

Because we didn't even know we needed it until we already had it, and at 

that point it becomes painful to switch.  Europeans have had the dubious 

'benefit' of having their industrial infrastructure devasted twice in 

the past century, thanks to a couple world wars.  At the point where 

there is no Lowe's, Home Depot or Ace Hardware, because they ALL have to 

be rebuilt...might as well go with the efficient system.  We also see 

Europe and the ex-Soviet block nations adopting advanced cellular 

infrastructures much quicker than the US.  But people forget that the 

new 3G (third generation) systems there don't have to compete for 

customers with the legacy 2G systems.  It's much easier to build an 

advanced system if you have a slightly less advanced system to build off 

of.  It's also much easier to implement it if you don't have the older 

system to compete with.



-- 

         ,|"|"|,              Ernest Christley       |

----===<{{(oQo)}}>===----    Dyke Delta Builder      |

        o|  d  |o        http://ernest.isa-geek.org  |

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