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Twin Engine help Z-14

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meat_ball

Joined: 05 Aug 2020
Posts: 27

Posted: Thu Dec 21, 2023 3:08 pm Post subject: Twin Engine help Z-14

Hello all, 



I am planning a twin velocity build and the logical choice is to incorporate the Z-14 drawing for electrics.  I am stuck with how to incorporate the 2 engine start system into the schematic.  Is there a way to add a rotary switch after the Starter/Crossfeed switch that will select respective engines to start?  Is there a better way to do it while keeping the same architecture as the original drawing?  I can follow schematics, I can physically build the systems, but I can't for the life of me conceptualize the ins and outs....



Any help would be appreciated!  



Have a great day, 



Rob

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Last edited by meat_ball on Thu Dec 21, 2023 8:54 pm; edited 1 time in total

cluros(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 21, 2023 3:33 pm Post subject: Velocity V-Twin Z-14

I would follow the philosophy of every other twin on the planet and have separate LEFT starter switch for the left engine and RIGHT starter switch for the right engine.



Take everything engine related in Z-14 and have a second copy for the second engine.



 	  Quote: 	
		   On Dec 21, 2023, at 15:11, meat_ball <arjayefem(at)fastmail.net> wrote:

 

 

 

 Hello all, 

 

 I am planning a twin velocity build and the logical choice is to incorporate the Z-14 drawing for electrics.  I am stuck with how to incorporate the 2 engine start system into the schematic.  Is there a way to add a rotary switch after the Starter/Crossfeed switch that will select respective engines to start?  Is there a better way to do it while keeping the same architecture as the original drawing?  I can follow schematics, I can physically build the systems, but I can't for the life of me conceptualize the ins and outs....

 

 Any help would be appreciated!  

 

 Have a great day, 

 

 Rob

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=512830#512830

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meat_ball

Joined: 05 Aug 2020
Posts: 27

Posted: Thu Dec 21, 2023 3:40 pm Post subject: Re: Velocity V-Twin Z-14

Thanks for the reply!  That was my first inclination, but as I have said, I can't conceptualize how to make the tie-in to the crossfeed work.  What wires would connect to where?

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cluros(at)gmail.com
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Posted: Thu Dec 21, 2023 4:25 pm Post subject: Velocity V-Twin Z-14

How many batteries and alternators are you planning? Electrically dependent engines?



On Thu, 21 Dec 2023, 15:43 meat_ball, <arjayefem(at)fastmail.net (arjayefem(at)fastmail.net)> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "meat_ball" <arjayefem(at)fastmail.net (arjayefem(at)fastmail.net)>

 

 Thanks for the reply!  That was my first inclination, but as I have said, I can't conceptualize how to make the tie-in to the crossfeed work.  What wires would connect to where? 

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=512832#512832

 

 

 

 

 

 

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meat_ball

Joined: 05 Aug 2020
Posts: 27

Posted: Thu Dec 21, 2023 5:07 pm Post subject: Re: Velocity V-Twin Z-14

2batts and 2 alts. Identical to Z-14 except adding the second engine. As far as electrically dependent engines, I haven’t decided yet if I’ll have completely dependent, but I will have at least one electronic ignition per engine. 



Thanks



 	  cluros(at)gmail.com wrote: 	
		  How many batteries and alternators are you planning? Electrically dependent engines?



On Thu, 21 Dec 2023, 15:43 meat_ball, <arjayefem> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "meat_ball" <arjayefem>

 

 Thanks for the reply!  That was my first inclination, but as I have said, I can't conceptualize how to make the tie-in to the crossfeed work.  What wires would connect to where? 

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=512832#512832

 

 

 

 

 

 

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cluros(at)gmail.com
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Posted: Thu Dec 21, 2023 8:23 pm Post subject: Velocity V-Twin Z-14

I see the problem. Z-14 is one engine driving a primary and a backup alternator. You say your aircraft's electrical system will be identical except two engines instead of one. Does that mean you will have one engine with a 60A alternator and the other engine with only a small 20A backup? You're going to pull all your electrical power from one engine and if it (or the alternator) fails, most of your panel will go dark and you'll recover the aircraft to the nearest suitable airport using the backup alternator and the batteries?

I suggest it would be better to go with a more traditional setup of one battery, one full sized alternator on each engine, and some way to balance the load between the two alternators. Z-12 with everything engine related doubled and somewhere for them to meet in the middle.

On Thu, Dec 21, 2023 at 5:10 PM meat_ball <arjayefem(at)fastmail.net (arjayefem(at)fastmail.net)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "meat_ball" <arjayefem(at)fastmail.net (arjayefem(at)fastmail.net)>

 2batts and 2 alts. Identical to Z-14 except adding the second engine. As far as electrically dependent engines, I haven’t decided yet if I’ll have completely dependent, but I will have at least one electronic ignition per engine. 

 Thanks

 cluros(at)gmail.com wrote:

 > How many batteries and alternators are you planning? Electrically dependent engines?

 > 

 > On Thu, 21 Dec 2023, 15:43 meat_ball,  wrote:

 > 

 > 

 > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "meat_ball" 

 > >  

 > >  Thanks for the reply!  That was my first inclination, but as I have said, I can't conceptualize how to make the tie-in to the crossfeed work.  What wires would connect to where? 

 > >  

 > >  

 > >  

 > >  

 > >  Read this topic online here:

 > >  

 > >  http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=512832#512832 (http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=512832#512832)

 > >  

 > >  

 > >  

 > >  

 > >  

 > >  

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 > >  

 > >  

 > >  

 > 

 Read this topic online here:

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=512834#512834

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meat_ball

Joined: 05 Aug 2020
Posts: 27

Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2023 12:21 pm Post subject: Re: Twin Engine help Z-14

I appreciate the feedback. I know this may sound smug or offensive, but it see no other way to say it.  I  haven't asked for the moon.  I have come here to ask for the help of the experts with my shortfalls which is the conceptualization.



Let's just say I have digested the diagrams and what each one of them offers. Let's also say that I have considered what it is what I am looking for in an aircraft and its systems.  Let's further consider that I really want to go with dual batteries and dual alternators and that I see no other reason to go with anything other, except that I want to.  



How would one incorporate the second engine starting system into the Z-14 diagram? The alternators will be one 40 amp per engine. Is there anyone who can help with this?

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cluros(at)gmail.com
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Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2023 2:06 pm Post subject: Twin Engine help Z-14

So you're going to replace the Aux Alternator in Z-14 with a regular alternator on a second engine and keep the main and aux batteries. Ok.



In that case the output of the aux battery contactor would then go to the second engine starter contactor the same way the main battery contactor has a 4awg wire going to the starter contactor in Z-14. Copy the starter equipment coming off the main battery contactor and paste it into the aux battery contactor between the aux battery contactor and the cross-feed contactor. Your starter/cross-feed switch now needs 4 positions (Cross-feed / Off / Start Eng 1 / Start Eng 2) (On / Off / (On) / (On)) which I'm not sure exists so maybe you want to replace it with 3 switches? Cross-feed (On / Off)/ Start Eng 1 ((On) / Off)/ Start Eng 2 ((On) / Off).





On Fri, Dec 22, 2023 at 12:24 PM meat_ball <arjayefem(at)fastmail.net (arjayefem(at)fastmail.net)> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "meat_ball" <arjayefem(at)fastmail.net (arjayefem(at)fastmail.net)>

 

 I appreciate the feedback. I know this may sound smug or offensive, but it see no other way to say it.  I  haven't asked for the moon.  I have come here to ask for the help of the experts with my shortfalls which is the conceptualization.

 

 Let's just say I have digested the diagrams and what each one of them offers. Let's also say that I have considered what it is what I am looking for in an aircraft and its systems.  Let's further consider that I really want to go with dual batteries and dual alternators and that I see no other reason to go with anything other, except that I want to.  

 

 How would one incorporate the second engine starting system into the Z-14 diagram? The alternators will be one 40 amp per engine. Is there anyone who can help with this?

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=512843#512843

 

 

 

 

 

 

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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
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Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2023 6:16 pm Post subject: Twin Engine help Z-14

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 How would one incorporate the second engine starting system

 into the Z-14 diagram? The alternators will be one 40 amp per

 engine. Is there anyone who can help with this? 	


   Z14 illustrates TWO, independently

   energized electrical systems . . .whether

   driven by two alternators on one engine or

   two alternators on two engines.  Z14 was

   originally crafted for single engine with

   one large and one smaller alternator . . .

   could just as easily be two engines with

   one large alternator each . . . or one

   large and one small alternator each.



   A feature in the form of a cross-feed contactor

   allows for (1)tying both systems together for engine

   cranking and (2) sharing energy between systems

   in case of loss of a main alternator on one

   engine.



   Fabricate two, essentially identical systems.

   One on each engine. Then tie them together

   as the situation dictates.



   In your case, you have four alternators. So the

   value/need for any elaborate bus switching

   for load shedding seems unlikely.



   That's why I suggested that you accomplish

   the detailed load analysis on an accessory-by-

   accessory basis with identification of

   loads that can be dispensed with under 

   conditions defined my your failure modes

   effects analysis.



   How much output can be expected from your

   smaller alternators?



 

   Bob . . .



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