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andymeyer
Joined: 31 Mar 2015
Posts: 54
Location: SW MI
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 Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2023 4:16 am Post subject: AeroElectric-List Digest: 8 Msgs - 12/18/23 |
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Stencils!Bob, trying to accurately coral the mosquito poop on more than one board will drive you bat$#!+ crazy. I've bought stencils for doing boards and I use an old hotel key - one or two swipes and those mosquito turds cover up - at the right thickness - every pad. Drop everything in place, then watch them all wiggle into alignment as the solder flows. I go as small as 0402, but try to stick to 0603 or bigger.
I cheat and use a hot plate to reflow, but I've thought about the reflow oven. I'm only doing a couple to a few boards a year.
Andy
On Tue, Dec 19, 2023, 02:39 AeroElectric-List Digest Server <aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com (aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | *
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AeroElectric-List Digest Archive
---
Total Messages Posted Mon 12/18/23: 8
----------------------------------------------------------
Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:06 AM - OVM-14 MkIII development (update) (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
2. 07:22 AM - Re: OVM-14 MkIII development (update) (Bob Verwey)
3. 07:28 AM - Re: OVM-14 MkIII development (update) (Christopher Cee Stone)
4. 08:38 AM - Re: OVM-14 MkIII development (update) (Charlie England)
5. 10:04 AM - Re: OVM-14 MkIII development (update) (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
6. 11:21 AM - Re: OVM-14 MkIII development (update) (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
7. 03:07 PM - Re: OVM-14 MkIII development (update) (Eric Page)
8. 07:33 PM - Re: Re: OVM-14 MkIII development (update) (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________
Time: 06:06:55 AM PST US
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)>
Subject: OVM-14 MkIII development (update)
All the proto boards and parts are in.
This is a busy time for festivities and frivolities . . .
having trouble getting back to the bench.
I'm going to try something 'new' for my shop.
The big guns in electronic assembly literally
silk screen solder paste onto component pads
before using a pick-n-place machine to position
parts. The boards are then run through a very
sophisticated oven that preheats and then
flows the solder.
I remember my first experiences with solid state
assembly protocols. 1955 or thereabouts I acquired
my first transistor. A Raytheon CK722. Seems like
they cost about $6 then. All the instructions
for assembling the device into the circuit called
for grabbing the lead with a pair of needle nose
pliers to keep the soldering heat from migrating
up and into the device placing it at risk for
failure.
Nowadays, we can throw whole assemblies into
environments that solder thousands
of joints all at once in mere minutes . . .
I've purchased a hand operated syringe designed
to deposit mosquito poop sized drops of solder
paste onto the pads. I also have a miniature
heat-gun with which I can stick every thing down
in one operation.
I've scheduled some time with my contractor to
modify a workbench in the 'mess making' shop.
We're adding some shelving to support test equipment
over the alternator drive I built up several
years ago for another project. I'm planning to
instrument a mock-up of a complete electrical
system so that we can speak to performance
of system components in terms of measured values.
Watch this space.
Bob . . .
////
(o o)
===========o00o=(_)=o00o========
< Go ahead, make my day . . . >
< show me where I'm wrong. >
================================
In the interest of creative evolution
of the-best-we-know-how-to-do based
on physics and good practice.
________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________
Time: 07:22:30 AM PST US
From: Bob Verwey <bob.verwey(at)gmail.com (bob.verwey(at)gmail.com)>
Subject: Re: OVM-14 MkIII development (update)
Bob my optical focus is more and more a challenge when dealing with more
and more minutuarized components!
On Mon, 18 Dec 2023, 16:09 Robert L. Nuckolls, III, <
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:
> All the proto boards and parts are in.
>
> This is a busy time for festivities and frivolities . . .
> having trouble getting back to the bench.
>
> I'm going to try something 'new' for my shop.
> The big guns in electronic assembly literally
> silk screen solder paste onto component pads
> before using a pick-n-place machine to position
> parts. The boards are then run through a very
> sophisticated oven that preheats and then
> flows the solder.
>
> I remember my first experiences with solid state
> assembly protocols. 1955 or thereabouts I acquired
> my first transistor. A Raytheon CK722. Seems like
> they cost about $6 then. All the instructions
> for assembling the device into the circuit called
> for grabbing the lead with a pair of needle nose
> pliers to keep the soldering heat from migrating
> up and into the device placing it at risk for
> failure.
>
> Nowadays, we can throw whole assemblies into
> environments that solder thousands
> of joints all at once in mere minutes . . .
>
> I've purchased a hand operated syringe designed
> to deposit mosquito poop sized drops of solder
> paste onto the pads. I also have a miniature
> heat-gun with which I can stick every thing down
> in one operation.
>
> I've scheduled some time with my contractor to
> modify a workbench in the 'mess making' shop.
> We're adding some shelving to support test equipment
> over the alternator drive I built up several
> years ago for another project. I'm planning to
> instrument a mock-up of a complete electrical
> system so that we can speak to performance
> of system components in terms of measured values.
>
> Watch this space.
>
> Bob . . .
>
> ////
> (o o)
> ===========o00o=(_)=o00o========
> < Go ahead, make my day . . . >
> < show me where I'm wrong. >
> ================================
>
> In the interest of creative evolution
> of the-best-we-know-how-to-do based
> on physics and good practice.
>
________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________
Time: 07:28:24 AM PST US
From: Christopher Cee Stone <rv8iator(at)gmail.com (rv8iator(at)gmail.com)>
Subject: Re: OVM-14 MkIII development (update)
Bob et al...
This is a BGA component (Dims in mm) that is soldered to a slightly larger
motherboard. All our fabs are pick and place. Most boards 6 layers with
.010 in traces. We get some components that are manufactured in
millimeters and our design software (Altium) likes inch grids... The
conversion is four significant digits so it's only a matter of making sure
you remember what units you are working in...
I only bring this up as boards and fab have really become quite
inexpensive. I do 5 piece and 10 piece board proto lots.
Fun stuff!
.Chris
Another RV
[image: image.png]
On Mon, Dec 18, 2023 at 6:09=AFAM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:
> All the proto boards and parts are in.
>
> This is a busy time for festivities and frivolities . . .
> having trouble getting back to the bench.
>
> I'm going to try something 'new' for my shop.
> The big guns in electronic assembly literally
> silk screen solder paste onto component pads
> before using a pick-n-place machine to position
> parts. The boards are then run through a very
> sophisticated oven that preheats and then
> flows the solder.
>
> I remember my first experiences with solid state
> assembly protocols. 1955 or thereabouts I acquired
> my first transistor. A Raytheon CK722. Seems like
> they cost about $6 then. All the instructions
> for assembling the device into the circuit called
> for grabbing the lead with a pair of needle nose
> pliers to keep the soldering heat from migrating
> up and into the device placing it at risk for
> failure.
>
> Nowadays, we can throw whole assemblies into
> environments that solder thousands
> of joints all at once in mere minutes . . .
>
> I've purchased a hand operated syringe designed
> to deposit mosquito poop sized drops of solder
> paste onto the pads. I also have a miniature
> heat-gun with which I can stick every thing down
> in one operation.
>
> I've scheduled some time with my contractor to
> modify a workbench in the 'mess making' shop.
> We're adding some shelving to support test equipment
> over the alternator drive I built up several
> years ago for another project. I'm planning to
> instrument a mock-up of a complete electrical
> system so that we can speak to performance
> of system components in terms of measured values.
>
> Watch this space.
>
> Bob . . .
>
> ////
> (o o)
> ===========o00o=(_)=o00o======
==
> < Go ahead, make my day . . . >
> < show me where I'm wrong. >
> =======================
=========
>
> In the interest of creative evolution
> of the-best-we-know-how-to-do based
> on physics and good practice.
>
________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________
Time: 08:38:02 AM PST US
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com (ceengland7(at)gmail.com)>
Subject: Re: OVM-14 MkIII development (update)
On Mon, Dec 18, 2023 at 8:09=AFAM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:
> All the proto boards and parts are in.
>
> This is a busy time for festivities and frivolities . . .
> having trouble getting back to the bench.
>
> I'm going to try something 'new' for my shop.
> The big guns in electronic assembly literally
> silk screen solder paste onto component pads
> before using a pick-n-place machine to position
> parts. The boards are then run through a very
> sophisticated oven that preheats and then
> flows the solder.
> snip
>
> Nowadays, we can throw whole assemblies into
> environments that solder thousands
> of joints all at once in mere minutes . . .
>
> I've purchased a hand operated syringe designed
> to deposit mosquito poop sized drops of solder
> paste onto the pads. I also have a miniature
> heat-gun with which I can stick every thing down
> in one operation.
>
> snip
>
> of system components in terms of measured values.
>
> Watch this space.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
> A friend of mine designed and has been making the control head/monitors
for E-Mag ignition systems for many years, using surface mount components.
He
copied what hobbyists were doing; they used a particular brand of 'toaster
oven' that has accurate temperature control. So if you have an E-Mag
control head, it came from an 'easy bake oven'. 
Charlie
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________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________
Time: 10:04:57 AM PST US
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)>
Subject: Re: OVM-14 MkIII development (update)
At 09:21 AM 12/18/2023, you wrote:
>Bob my optical focus is more and more a challenge when dealing with
>more and more minutuarized components!
Yeah . . . While at Beech, I purchased a binocular
microscope with a camera port. Invaluable tool for
chasing down root cause for sticking relays, broken
shafts, poor craftsmanship, etc. Now it's handy
for working etched circuit boards! I don't use
anything smaller than 1206 components but the
next gen OVM got laid out really tight so the
board will STILL fit under 1/2" heat shrink.
I'm thinking of seeing if some of my contractor's
grand kids would be interested in learning to
assemble things like this. Thought it would
be wise to pursue an upgrade to our shade-tree
processes. The poop-n-blast technique seems
like a logical 'upgrade'.
Bob . . .
////
(o o)
===========o00o=(_)=o00o========
< Go ahead, make my day . . . >
< show me where I'm wrong. >
================================
In the interest of creative evolution
of the-best-we-know-how-to-do based
on physics and good practice.
________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________
Time: 11:21:41 AM PST US
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)>
Subject: Re: OVM-14 MkIII development (update)
>A friend of mine=C2 designed and has been making the control
>head/monitors for E-Mag ignition systems for many years, using
>surface mount components. He copied what hobbyists were doing;
>they used a particular brand of 'toaster oven' that has
>accurate temperature control. So if you have an E-Mag
>control head, it came from an 'easy bake oven'.
Yeah, I've been aware of a constellation of
reflow tools for DIY assembly for a number
of years. About 10 years ago, I bought an
early version of this thing.
Made it work okay . . . but it took up a lot
of room on the bench and was a tool I used
for perhaps an 2 hours per month. It was
just not very practical for my products
with tiny boards. Still had some thru-hole
products that were not oven-friendly.
My little hot-air rework station seemed
to be a better fit for my mix of repair/
manufacturing tasks. Didn't take up much
room. Virtually zero 'set up' . . . one
could visually adjust technique on the
fly. Was a whole lot cheaper too!
I'm reminded of the exciting day that
we purchased a wave soldering machine
at Electro-Mech. We kept it for less
than a year. There was a lot of 'back-office'
work to store up enough boards to justify
firing the thing up for a run . . . that
might take less than an hour to solder a
months worth of production.
The thing proved to be a bottle-neck in
work flow for an operation that produced
a relatively small quantities of dozens of
products that were needed at the customer
in a smooth JIT flow.
Our assembly line of skilled craftspersons
proved more practical for managing
work-flow.
Bob . . .
////
(o o)
===========o00o=(_)=o00o=======
=
< Go ahead, make my day . . . >
< show me where I'm wrong. >
========================
========
In the interest of creative evolution
of the-best-we-know-how-to-do based
on physics and good practice.
________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________
Time: 03:07:56 PM PST US
Subject: Re: OVM-14 MkIII development (update)
From: "Eric Page" <edpav8r(at)yahoo.com (edpav8r(at)yahoo.com)>
Those Chinese T-962 reflow ovens are well known in the hobbyist community for having hot and cold spots, sometimes poor internal wiring, and for not following IPC profiles (https://www.ipc.org/TOC/IPC-7801.pdf) very well. There's an open-source project out there for a replacement controller that makes them work better.
I use an old toaster oven with a failed thermostat that makes it run full blast
regardless of setting (I ate out the day that happened!). I picked up a cheap
industrial ramp/soak PID controller to run it. The only modification necessary
was to cover the inside of the window in its door with aluminum foil to minimize
radiated heat loss. It now works like a charm and cost only a few dollars.
If you want to build a toaster oven reflow setup, look for an oven with quartz
heating elements; they're reputed to allow faster temperature ramps, making it
easier to follow the right profile.
-Eric
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=512805#512805
________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________
Time: 07:33:02 PM PST US
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)>
Subject: Re: Re: OVM-14 MkIII development (update)
At 05:07 PM 12/18/2023, you wrote:
>
>Those Chinese T-962 reflow ovens are well known in the hobbyist
>community for having hot and cold spots, sometimes poor internal
>wiring, and for not following IPC profiles
>(https://www.ipc.org/TOC/IPC-7801.pdf) very well. There's an
>open-source project out there for a replacement controller that
>makes them work better.
>
>I use an old toaster oven with a failed thermostat that makes it run
>full blast regardless of setting (I ate out the day that
>happened!). I picked up a cheap industrial ramp/soak PID controller
>to run it. The only modification necessary was to cover the inside
>of the window in its door with aluminum foil to minimize radiated
>heat loss. It now works like a charm and cost only a few dollars.
>
>If you want to build a toaster oven reflow setup, look for an oven
>with quartz heating elements; they're reputed to allow faster
>temperature ramps, making it easier to follow the right profile.
>
Good info sir. Thank you!
I think the T-962 has evolved to mitigate some
of its shortcomings. The one I bought needed
a number of mods right out of the box . . but
it ultimately seemed adequate . . . jut more
than I needed. Kinda like doing in ants
with a sledgehammer!
Bob . . .
////
(o o)
===========o00o=(_)=o00o========
< Go ahead, make my day . . . >
< show me where I'm wrong. >
================================
In the interest of creative evolution
of the-best-we-know-how-to-do based
on physics and good practice.
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Eric Page
Joined: 15 Feb 2017
Posts: 243
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| Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2023 4:32 pm Post subject: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 8 Msgs - 12/18/23 |
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| andymeyer wrote: | | Stencils! |
Amen. For one-off and prototype projects, OSH Stencils is hard to beat. Their claim to fame is really cheap stencils made from polyamide film. They also make stainless steel stencils now, so they're a good option for higher-run projects too.
| Quote: | | I cheat and use a hot plate to reflow... |
A good and basically free alternative to a hot plate is to put some fine sand into an old frying pan and put it on the stove. Put the pasted and populated board on top of the sand and turn on the heat. It'll heat the board very evenly.
-Eric
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