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Coastflyer

Joined: 20 Mar 2016
Posts: 13

Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2023 9:30 pm Post subject: Plane Power alternator $$$$

Holy cow, my alternator failed (I think) today. I thought â€œno big deal, Iâ€™ll just throw a new one inâ€ but wow, the price has tripled! 

I better make sure that is the problem before I spend $1000 on a new one, so Iâ€™m looking for some opinions here. Hereâ€™s what happened: started seeing intermittent power off indications on the dynon like it was switching to internal battery, then it went black! (Which is strange because it does have a backup battery) Then the radios started to die. I could not see the volts and amps because that is displayed on the dynon (now dark) so I headed back to the airport. After a minute or so the dynon came back and I checked the volts and amps. Volts were around 9.5 and amps were pegged high. My ammeter shunt is in the alternator feed line. I turned off the avionics and other loads, then thought to turn off the alternator. After a while the volts started creeping back up and I was able to use the radio for landing. Volts came back up to 11.5.

I suspect an internal short in the alternator because the battery recovered some after I turned off the alternator. I do have a 60 amp fuse in the alternator feed line and it does not appear to have blown. Maybe the short was not strong enough to blow the fuse?

It is an internally regulated Plane Power alternator about 12 years old with about 600 hours on it.

Any thoughts, opinions, or advice?

Thanks!!!

Jesse





Sent from my iPad

cluros(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2023 12:57 am Post subject: Plane Power alternator $$$$

Hi Jesse,

I'd start with downloading the data for this flight from the dynon and posting it here. Then we would know what happened leading up to the incident.



On Tue, 28 Nov 2023, 21:33 Jesse Jenks, <jessejenks72(at)gmail.com (jessejenks72(at)gmail.com)> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jesse Jenks <jessejenks72(at)gmail.com (jessejenks72(at)gmail.com)>

 

 Holy cow, my alternator failed (I think) today. I thought â€œno big deal, Iâ€™ll just throw a new one inâ€ but wow, the price has tripled! 

 I better make sure that is the problem before I spend $1000 on a new one, so Iâ€™m looking for some opinions here. Hereâ€™s what happened: started seeing intermittent power off indications on the dynon like it was switching to internal battery, then it went black! (Which is strange because it does have a backup battery) Then the radios started to die. I could not see the volts and amps because that is displayed on the dynon (now dark) so I headed back to the airport. After a minute or so the dynon came back and I checked the volts and amps. Volts were around 9.5 and amps were pegged high. My ammeter shunt is in the alternator feed line. I turned off the avionics and other loads, then thought to turn off the alternator. After a while the volts started creeping back up and I was able to use the radio for landing. Volts came back up to 11.5.

 I suspect an internal short in the alternator because the battery recovered some after I turned off the alternator. I do have a 60 amp fuse in the alternator feed line and it does not appear to have blown. Maybe the short was not strong enough to blow the fuse?

 It is an internally regulated Plane Power alternator about 12 years old with about 600 hours on it.

 Any thoughts, opinions, or advice?

 Thanks!!!

 Jesse

 

 

 

 

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Coastflyer

Joined: 20 Mar 2016
Posts: 13

Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2023 6:10 am Post subject: Re: Plane Power alternator $$$$

That would be interesting and probably helpful, but I donâ€™t believe the dynon was set up to record data. Iâ€™m not a computer guy. Itâ€™s an old d180 and I have never done firmware upgrades or played with the data logging features so I assume that was not enabled.

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2023 10:23 am Post subject: Plane Power alternator $$$$

At 11:29 PM 11/28/2023, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jesse Jenks <jessejenks72(at)gmail.com>



 Holy cow, my alternator failed (I think) today.  Started seeing

 intermittent power off indications on the dynon like it was

 switching to internal battery, then it went black! (Which is strange

 because it does have a backup battery) 	


   At what bus voltage does the Dynon revert to backup

   battery?



   When was the last time the backup battery was

   tested for minimum performance requirements?



 Then the radios started to die. I could not see the volts and

 amps because that is displayed on the dynon (now dark) so

 I headed back to the airport.



   When was the last time the ship's battery was

   tested for minimum performance requirements?

   The panel going dark unexpectedly during this

   event suggests that it was incapable of supporting

   ship's systems for some minimum duration.

   I take it you do not have an active notification

   of low voltage (flashing light right in front

   of your position)? 



 After a minute or so the dynon came back and I checked the

 volts and amps. Volts were around 9.5 and amps were pegged high.



   This suggests that a previously absentee alternator

   was awake and working to recharge an essentially

   'dead' battery.



 My ammeter shunt is in the alternator feed line. I turned off

 the avionics and other loads, then thought to turn off the alternator.



   Why turn it off? It would probably have started

   to reduce output as the battery began to take

   a charge . . . how many amps is "pegged high"? 



 After a while the volts started creeping back up and I was able

 to use the radio for landing. Volts came back up to 11.5.



   This suggests that the badly depleted battery was

   recovering slightly under light load. A voltage of 11.5

   on the battery suggests 95+ percent DEPLETED.



  	  Quote: 	
		  I suspect an internal short in the alternator because the battery

 recovered some after I turned off the alternator. 	


   Probably not. The battery was simply struggling

   for a second wind while lightly loaded.



  	  Quote: 	
		  I do have a 60 amp fuse in the alternator feed line and it does

 not appear to have blown. Maybe the short was not strong enough

 to blow the fuse? 	


   Alternators are incapable of opening their own

   b-lead protection except in case of shorted diode(s)

   in the rectifier . . . it's always BATTERY energy

   that opens this fuse. In this case, battery behavior

   suggests near total depletion which would probably

   render it incapable of opening the b-lead fuse even

   if it were faulted.



  	  Quote: 	
		  It is an internally regulated Plane Power alternator about 12 years old with about 600 hours on it.

 Any thoughts, opinions, or advice? 	


   Take it off and disassemble for inspection of brushes.

   I suspect they're worn to the point of intermittent

   performance. New brushes may well fix the problem.

   Suggest you put your battery on a charger/maintainer

   and then do load and capacity checks to assess

   minimum performance requirements. You might also

   consider testing the backup battery . . . sounds

   like it wasn't up to the task either.



   Adding ACTIVE notification of low voltage to

   your panel would have given you a heads-up

   LONG BEFORE this situation degraded into a

   tense moment. 



 

   Bob . . .



                    //// 

                   (o o) 

    ===========o00o=(_)=o00o========= 

    < Go ahead, make my day . . .   > 

    < show me where I'm wrong.      > 

    =================================

  

    In the interest of creative evolution

    of the-best-we-know-how-to-do based

    on physics and good practice.

Ceengland

Joined: 11 Oct 2020
Posts: 381
Location: MS

Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2023 11:23 am Post subject: Plane Power alternator $$$$

On Tue, Nov 28, 2023 at 11:33â€¯PM Jesse Jenks <jessejenks72(at)gmail.com (jessejenks72(at)gmail.com)> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jesse Jenks <jessejenks72(at)gmail.com (jessejenks72(at)gmail.com)>

 

 Holy cow, my alternator failed (I think) today. I thought â€œno big deal, Iâ€™ll just throw a new one inâ€ but wow, the price has tripled! 

 I better make sure that is the problem before I spend $1000 on a new one, so Iâ€™m looking for some opinions here. Hereâ€™s what happened: started seeing intermittent power off indications on the dynon like it was switching to internal battery, then it went black! (Which is strange because it does have a backup battery) Then the radios started to die. I could not see the volts and amps because that is displayed on the dynon (now dark) so I headed back to the airport. After a minute or so the dynon came back and I checked the volts and amps. Volts were around 9.5 and amps were pegged high. My ammeter shunt is in the alternator feed line. I turned off the avionics and other loads, then thought to turn off the alternator. After a while the volts started creeping back up and I was able to use the radio for landing. Volts came back up to 11.5.

 I suspect an internal short in the alternator because the battery recovered some after I turned off the alternator. I do have a 60 amp fuse in the alternator feed line and it does not appear to have blown. Maybe the short was not strong enough to blow the fuse?

 It is an internally regulated Plane Power alternator about 12 years old with about 600 hours on it.

 Any thoughts, opinions, or advice?

 Thanks!!!

 Jesse

	
I can hear all the other PP users saying in unison, "Welcome to the club!"Â  Â The VAF (Van's Air Force) forum has enough threads about PP problems to fill a hard drive. Most will say congrats for getting 600 hours.

Here's a thread about alternator failures, with comparison of PP, B&C, & 'generic'. Note that it is far from scientific; all theÂ  numbers for PP will be higher since Van sells PP products with their kits. But it might be somewhat informative that random 'generic' alternators with random installation techniques look about as good as PP.

Here's a recent thread that describes possibilities for repairing your PP alternator. To repair, you need to determine whether the alternator itself is bad, or the regulator inside it has failed. If you want to dig into it yourself, you can get help here with troubleshooting.

There are threads on this list, on the VAF forum, and other places on how to modify most Denso alternators to use external regulation, using either a generic Ford style regulator with external overvoltage protection, or using the B&C regulator with built-in OVÂ protection, low voltage warning, etc. My personal choice has been to use one of the common Denso internally regulated alternators, with OV protection from the B&C OV module (hard to find these days, but you can build one yourself) driving a high current relay in the B-lead path. Bob is currently working on an updated OV module, so that may become an option, as well.

Now, to the unasked question: Why didn't you get an instant notification when the alternator died? You mentioned Dynon, but didn't say whether you have their engine monitor. If you do, you should be able to program an alert for voltage dropping below normal alternator charge voltage. If you don't have the engine monitor, you need some form of low voltage notification so you'll know when the alternator dies. If your shunt is in the B-lead line, and the fault was in the alternator, the current reading should have reversed when you had the failure. If you didn't notice a reversed indication, it wouldn't be surprising; I'd have probably missed it as well in 'the heat of battle'. But if it *didn't* reverse, the fault may well be external to the alternator (somewhere in the a/c's wiring). Worth a look.

If you look through the Z-figures in the AEC book, there won't be any fuses in the B-lead circuit; only 'current limiters' or fusible links. It takes a *lot* of grunt (catastrophic fault to ground) to blow 60 amps of circuit protection, no matter what device is used.

Just some random thoughts; hope some will be useful.

Charlie

_________________
Charlie

jluckey(at)pacbell.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2023 2:30 pm Post subject: Plane Power alternator $$$$

Jesse,

I'm interested in what happened before the incident. Trying to determine the chronology...



1. After engine start did you check volts and amps?  If you did, I assume they were normal?  What were they?



2. How long were you flying before the problem happened?

3. Did the Dynon backup battery fail, or is it the case that you could have been flying on the backup for a while?  

4. Is there a conspicuous indication that the Dynon is running on backup power?





-Jeff



                  

                                                                    On Wednesday, November 29, 2023 at 11:29:56 AM PST, Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> wrote:                 

                 



                 



                 



On Tue, Nov 28, 2023 at 11:33â€¯PM Jesse Jenks <jessejenks72(at)gmail.com (jessejenks72(at)gmail.com)> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jesse Jenks <jessejenks72(at)gmail.com (jessejenks72(at)gmail.com)>

 

 Holy cow, my alternator failed (I think) today. I thought â€œno big deal, Iâ€™ll just throw a new one inâ€ but wow, the price has tripled! 

 I better make sure that is the problem before I spend $1000 on a new one, so Iâ€™m looking for some opinions here. Hereâ€™s what happened: started seeing intermittent power off indications on the dynon like it was switching to internal battery, then it went black! (Which is strange because it does have a backup battery) Then the radios started to die. I could not see the volts and amps because that is displayed on the dynon (now dark) so I headed back to the airport. After a minute or so the dynon came back and I checked the volts and amps. Volts were around 9.5 and amps were pegged high. My ammeter shunt is in the alternator feed line. I turned off the avionics and other loads, then thought to turn off the alternator. After a while the volts started creeping back up and I was able to use the radio for landing. Volts came back up to 11.5.

 I suspect an internal short in the alternator because the battery recovered some after I turned off the alternator. I do have a 60 amp fuse in the alternator feed line and it does not appear to have blown. Maybe the short was not strong enough to blow the fuse?

 It is an internally regulated Plane Power alternator about 12 years old with about 600 hours on it.

 Any thoughts, opinions, or advice?

 Thanks!!!

 Jesse

	
I can hear all the other PP users saying in unison, "Welcome to the club!"   The VAF (Van's Air Force) forum has enough threads about PP problems to fill a hard drive. Most will say congrats for getting 600 hours.

Here's a thread about alternator failures, with comparison of PP, B&C, & 'generic'. Note that it is far from scientific; all the  numbers for PP will be higher since Van sells PP products with their kits. But it might be somewhat informative that random 'generic' alternators with random installation techniques look about as good as PP.

Here's a recent thread that describes possibilities for repairing your PP alternator. To repair, you need to determine whether the alternator itself is bad, or the regulator inside it has failed. If you want to dig into it yourself, you can get help here with troubleshooting.

There are threads on this list, on the VAF forum, and other places on how to modify most Denso alternators to use external regulation, using either a generic Ford style regulator with external overvoltage protection, or using the B&C regulator with built-in OV protection, low voltage warning, etc. My personal choice has been to use one of the common Denso internally regulated alternators, with OV protection from the B&C OV module (hard to find these days, but you can build one yourself) driving a high current relay in the B-lead path. Bob is currently working on an updated OV module, so that may become an option, as well.

Now, to the unasked question: Why didn't you get an instant notification when the alternator died? You mentioned Dynon, but didn't say whether you have their engine monitor. If you do, you should be able to program an alert for voltage dropping below normal alternator charge voltage. If you don't have the engine monitor, you need some form of low voltage notification so you'll know when the alternator dies. If your shunt is in the B-lead line, and the fault was in the alternator, the current reading should have reversed when you had the failure. If you didn't notice a reversed indication, it wouldn't be surprising; I'd have probably missed it as well in 'the heat of battle'. But if it *didn't* reverse, the fault may well be external to the alternator (somewhere in the a/c's wiring). Worth a look.

If you look through the Z-figures in the AEC book, there won't be any fuses in the B-lead circuit; only 'current limiters' or fusible links. It takes a *lot* of grunt (catastrophic fault to ground) to blow 60 amps of circuit protection, no matter what device is used.

Just some random thoughts; hope some will be useful.

Charlie

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2023 8:08 pm Post subject: Plane Power alternator $$$$

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 There are threads on this list, on the VAF forum, and other places on how to

 modify most Denso alternators to use external regulation, 	


    It's not a difficult task . . .



  	  Quote: 	
		  My personal choice has been to use one of the common Denso internally

 regulated alternators, with OV protection from the B&C OV module

 (hard to find these days, but you can build one yourself) . . . 

 driving a high current relay in the B-lead path. Bob is currently working

 on an updated OV module, so that may become an option, as well. 	


    Prototype parts are in hand. I'm going to try

    something a little different for soldering the

    itty-bitty parts. The tools are at the post office.



  	  Quote: 	
		  If you don't have the engine monitor, you need some form of low voltage

 notification so you'll know when the alternator dies. 	


    We used to offer that too. Maybe that product

    should be resurrected as well. All of the parts

    necessary to implement a flashing low-volts

    driver are already on the board for the

    crowbar ovm. Wouldn't take much to shuffle

    the parts around.



  	  Quote: 	
		  If your shunt is in the B-lead line, and the fault was in the

 alternator, the current reading should have reversed when you

 had the failure. 	


   Alternator b-lead readings never 'go minus'

   except in case failure of TWO diodes . . . exceedingly

   rare. It was the BATTERY AMMETER that

   normally manifests minus-zero-plus readings.



  	  Quote: 	
		  If you look through the Z-figures in the AEC book, there won't

 be any fuses in the B-lead circuit; only 'current limiters'

 or fusible links. It takes a *lot* of grunt (catastrophic fault

 to ground) to blow 60 amps of circuit protection, no matter

 what device is used. 	


   Correct. Alternators are not capable of opening

   their own b-lead protection. Energy that opens

   the b-lead comes from the BATTERY.



 

   Bob . . .



                    //// 

                   (o o) 

    ===========o00o=(_)=o00o========= 

    < Go ahead, make my day . . .   > 

    < show me where I'm wrong.      > 

    =================================

  

    In the interest of creative evolution

    of the-best-we-know-how-to-do based

    on physics and good practice.

Coastflyer

Joined: 20 Mar 2016
Posts: 13

Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2023 4:57 pm Post subject: Re: Plane Power alternator $$$$

Thank you guys for the thoughtful and helpful replies!

The dynon is a D-180 which has all my flight instruments and engine indications on one screen. I have to change pages to see the volts and amps, which I agree is not a good thing but has worked ok until nowðŸ˜

And no I didnâ€™t install a low voltage warning light on the panel. Shame on me. I will do that now or figure out how to enable the audible alarm function in the dynon.

I donâ€™t know at what voltage the dynon switches to internal battery. I couldnâ€™t find that in the manual just now either. It does it on every power shutdown though so Iâ€™m used to seeing the prompt to press a key to continue on backup battery. That message was intermittently popping up on the screen at the beginning of the event and was my first indication something was wrong. But then the screen just wet dark. Maybe intermittent low voltage triggered the 30 second timer and since I didnâ€™t tell it to continue on backup it just shutoff?

Anyway. I feel like the dynon discussion is a bit of a sidetrack from the alternator problem.

Bob, the amps indication is a vertical scale and it was pegged at the top, and I believe it said 99 in red! Thatâ€™s what made me shut off the alternator, thinking there was a nuclear meltdown in progress.

I honestly donâ€™t know how long this situation was developing for. I had flown for about an hour. I feel like the ship battery was pretty healthy. Itâ€™s an odyssey pc680 installed 5 years and 175 hours ago, and gives great engine cranking after recently sitting unmaintained for a few months.

The high amps reading with very low voltage is what made me think internal short in the alternator, and the fact that battery voltage recovered with the alternator switched off. But it sounds like you think itâ€™s a more benign failure.

Iâ€™m willing to dig into the alternator if thatâ€™s the consensus.

Iâ€™ll reread all the replies and answer the questions more thoroughly, but donâ€™t have time at the moment.

Thanks guys!

cluros(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2023 5:09 pm Post subject: Plane Power alternator $$$$

Jesse, your D-180 records all the displayed parameters and more in an internal file. There is likely an orange, yellow, and black wire going from the back of your D-180 to a DB9 connector. If you connect a laptop running the free Dynon software to that connector you can download the entire event and then it will be a very simple exercise to look at the voltage and amperage recorded during the entire flight up until the D-180 shutdown. This will make diagnosis simple. In fact, it makes the diagnosis of many engine problems simple and can also be used to detect failing exhaust valves before they fail.



You're recording all this great diagnostic data, might as well save yourself thousands of dollars by using it.

On Thu, Nov 30, 2023 at 5:00â€¯PM Coastflyer <jessejenks72(at)gmail.com (jessejenks72(at)gmail.com)> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Coastflyer" <jessejenks72(at)gmail.com (jessejenks72(at)gmail.com)>

 

 Thank you guys for the thoughtful and helpful replies!

 The dynon is a D-180 which has all my flight instruments and engine indications on one screen. I have to change pages to see the volts and amps, which I agree is not a good thing but has worked ok until nowðŸ˜

 And no I didnâ€™t install a low voltage warning light on the panel. Shame on me. I will do that now or figure out how to enable the audible alarm function in the dynon.

 I donâ€™t know at what voltage the dynon switches to internal battery. I couldnâ€™t find that in the manual just now either. It does it on every power shutdown though so Iâ€™m used to seeing the prompt to press a key to continue on backup battery. That message was intermittently popping up on the screen at the beginning of the event and was my first indication something was wrong. But then the screen just wet dark. Maybe intermittent low voltage triggered the 30 second timer and since I didnâ€™t tell it to continue on backup it just shutoff?

 Anyway. I feel like the dynon discussion is a bit of a sidetrack from the alternator problem.

 Bob, the amps indication is a vertical scale and it was pegged at the top, and I believe it said 99 in red! Thatâ€™s what made me shut off the alternator, thinking there was a nuclear meltdown in progress.

 I honestly donâ€™t know how long this situation was developing for. I had flown for about an hour. I feel like the ship battery was pretty healthy. Itâ€™s an odyssey pc680 installed 5 years and 175 hours ago, and gives great engine cranking after recently sitting unmaintained for a few months.

 The high amps reading with very low voltage is what made me think internal short in the alternator, and the fact that battery voltage recovered with the alternator switched off. But it sounds like you think itâ€™s a more benign failure.

 Iâ€™m willing to dig into the alternator if thatâ€™s the consensus.

 Iâ€™ll reread all the replies and answer the questions more thoroughly, but donâ€™t have time at the moment.

 Thanks guys!

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=512715#512715

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Coastflyer

Joined: 20 Mar 2016
Posts: 13

Posted: Sat Dec 16, 2023 8:49 am Post subject: Re: Plane Power alternator $$$$

Update: I finally had time to think about this again. I removed the alternator. It makes some scraping noises when rotated. I took it to a local guy who is reportedly very knowledgeable. He tested it and said the rear bushing/bearing is worn and he canâ€™t rebuild it, so I ordered a new one. 

Thank you everyone for the advice here.

Dave Saylor

Joined: 11 Jan 2015
Posts: 207
Location: GILROY, CA

Posted: Sat Dec 16, 2023 2:01 pm Post subject: Plane Power alternator $$$$

You can get the whole brush assembly from Aircraft Spruce.Â  Itâ€™s a pretty easy job.Â  It includes the regulator too so you end up with a virtually new alternator.Â 

On Sat, Dec 16, 2023 at 08:52 Coastflyer <jessejenks72(at)gmail.com (jessejenks72(at)gmail.com)> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Coastflyer" <jessejenks72(at)gmail.com (jessejenks72(at)gmail.com)>

 

 Update: I finally had time to think about this again. I removed the alternator. It makes some scraping noises when rotated. I took it to a local guy who is reportedly very knowledgeable. He tested it and said the rear bushing/bearing is worn and he canâ€™t rebuild it, so I ordered a new one. 

 Thank you everyone for the advice here.

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=512793#512793

 

 

 

 

 

 

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_________________
--Dave
KWVI

skywagon185(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2023 3:15 pm Post subject: Plane Power alternator $$$$

Aircraft alternators....Suggestion:

If you are stuck with a questionableÂ alternator and need rapid test or service.Â  Take it to a reputableÂ auto electric repair shop, however, never mention that it is from an aircraft. If asked, say it's from your boat, tractor, etc.

All the shops that I know will not touch an aircraft unit due to rules and liability regulations, etc.





On Sat, Dec 16, 2023 at 8:52â€¯AM Coastflyer <jessejenks72(at)gmail.com (jessejenks72(at)gmail.com)> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Coastflyer" <jessejenks72(at)gmail.com (jessejenks72(at)gmail.com)>

 

 Update: I finally had time to think about this again. I removed the alternator. It makes some scraping noises when rotated. I took it to a local guy who is reportedly very knowledgeable. He tested it and said the rear bushing/bearing is worn and he canâ€™t rebuild it, so I ordered a new one. 

 Thank you everyone for the advice here.

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=512793#512793

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Coastflyer

Joined: 20 Mar 2016
Posts: 13

Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2023 4:10 pm Post subject: Re: Plane Power alternator $$$$

My alternator failed just in time!!!

I thought $1,000 was crazy but they just jacked the price up to $1,500!

WTF?

Coastflyer

Joined: 20 Mar 2016
Posts: 13

Posted: Sat Dec 23, 2023 7:49 am Post subject: Re: Plane Power alternator $$$$

So I installed the new PP alternator and test flew it yesterday. 

The alternator load seems to fluctuate more than I remember with the old one.  For example with all avionics and external lights on, the load fluctuates between approximately 14-17 amps.

This fluctuation doesnâ€™t seem normal, at least compared to my old alternator.

Maybe there has been a change to the regulator in the last 12 years, or maybe my belt is slipping a bit? Any advice?

Thanks

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 23, 2023 8:24 am Post subject: Plane Power alternator $$$$

At 09:49 AM 12/23/2023, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Coastflyer" <jessejenks72(at)gmail.com>



 So I installed the new PP alternator and test flew it yesterday. 

 The alternator load seems to fluctuate more than I remember with the old one.  For example with all avionics and external lights on, the load fluctuates between approximately 14-17 amps.

 This fluctuation doesnâ€™t seem normal, at least compared to my old alternator.

 Maybe there has been a change to the regulator in the last 12 years, or maybe my belt is slipping a bit? Any advice? 	


  Alternator CURRENT cannot truly change without

  a variation in LOAD presented by the system -OR-

  a similar fluctuation in bus voltage. What's

  the bus voltage doing? Suggest you check it with

  more than one instrument. Jumpy readings in 1970

  were cause for concern before digital instrumentation.

  Nowadays, you question/verify the instrumentation

  first.



  If the regulator is bad, bus voltage will be

  similarly 'jumpy' but in very small excursions.

  It might require close examination of bus voltage

  with an analog voltmeter (small with a short pointer)

  to see if the voltage is unstable. Do this

  before getting out the hammers-n-saws.



 



 

   Bob . . .



                    //// 

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    < Go ahead, make my day . . .   > 

    < show me where I'm wrong.      > 

    =================================

  

    In the interest of creative evolution

    of the-best-we-know-how-to-do based

    on physics and good practice.

Coastflyer

Joined: 20 Mar 2016
Posts: 13

Posted: Sun Dec 24, 2023 7:58 am Post subject: Re: Plane Power alternator $$$$

Thanks Bob,

Well, I did note several .1 volt fluctuations as displayed on the Dynonâ€¦

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 27, 2023 10:05 am Post subject: Plane Power alternator $$$$

At 09:59 AM 12/24/2023, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Coastflyer" <jessejenks72(at)gmail.com>



 Thanks Bob,

 Well, I did note several .1 volt fluctuations as displayed on the Dynonâ€¦ 	


   the significance of this observation is not

   a 'given'.  Digital displays may exhibit

   some 'jumpiness' in the least significant

   digits in spite of a rock solid stimulus.



   This characteristic is the result of response

   times, a/d converter performance and environment

   for which the instrument is intended.



   Laboratory grade instruments are not expected

   to be fast while stability is valued. Field

   instruments tend to be faster . . . but

   more jitter.



   A 0.1V fluctuation COULD be a driver for

   the current fluctuations you observed . . .

   depends on a number of system variables

   most important of which is battery internal

   resistance.



   But if none of the illumination in the

   cabin fluctuates in sympathy with the

   current readings, I tend to think that

   the readings are an artifact of measurement

   technology.



   I've got a constellation of tools suited

   for ferreting out root cause of your

   concerns. Yeah, the 'numbers' are intellectually

   irritating but you've not described any

   indication that something needs fixing.



   I've oft suggested that ammeters are a

   tiny step above useless in the operation

   of your airplane. All loads are 

   known and critical components your

   management of energy in the design

   phase.



   After that, airborne operation of the

   electrical system should require no

   analysis/diagnosis/decisions based on any

   condition other than LO VOLTS. From

   there, it's implementation of a proven

   change of configuration . . . Plan-A,

   Plan-B, perhaps a Plan-C.



 



 

   Bob . . .



                    //// 

                   (o o) 

    ===========o00o=(_)=o00o========= 

    < Go ahead, make my day . . .   > 

    < show me where I'm wrong.      > 

    =================================

  

    In the interest of creative evolution

    of the-best-we-know-how-to-do based

    on physics and good practice.

Coastflyer

Joined: 20 Mar 2016
Posts: 13

Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2023 5:40 am Post subject: Re: Plane Power alternator $$$$

I ordered a new battery. I figured itâ€™s time to replace it anyway and maybe if battery internal resistance is the cause of the fluctuations Iâ€™m seeing, that will clear it up.

skywagon185(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2023 11:34 am Post subject: Plane Power alternator $$$$

Alternator fluctuations....By any chance do you have flashing strobes or something like that type of load..?

That will make your amp meter flicker....

On Thu, Dec 28, 2023 at 5:43â€¯AM Coastflyer <jessejenks72(at)gmail.com (jessejenks72(at)gmail.com)> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Coastflyer" <jessejenks72(at)gmail.com (jessejenks72(at)gmail.com)>

 

 I ordered a new battery. I figured itâ€™s time to replace it anyway and maybe if battery internal resistance is the cause of the fluctuations Iâ€™m seeing, that will clear it up.

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=512965#512965

 

 

 

 

 

 

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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
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Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2023 8:47 pm Post subject: Plane Power alternator $$$$

At 07:40 AM 12/28/2023, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Coastflyer" <jessejenks72(at)gmail.com>



 I ordered a new battery. I figured itâ€™s time to replace it anyway and maybe if battery internal resistance is the cause of the fluctuations Iâ€™m seeing, that will clear it up.

 	


   I'm sorry . . . the battery condition that

   promotes hyper-active ammeter indications

   is LOW internal resistance characteristic

   of a battery in excellent condition. If

   this is indeed root cause of your observed

   condition, a new battery will only make

   it worse.



   That's only one of the possible causes.



   As I mentioned in the former post, I

   your airplane were in my shop, I have

   the equipment necessary to deduce

   the root cause but it's a pretty

   detailed investigation. I was pretty

   wordy in that missive. Short answer:

   I don't think there are any operational

   concerns that arise from your

   observations.



 

 

   Bob . . .



                    //// 

                   (o o) 

    ===========o00o=(_)=o00o========= 

    < Go ahead, make my day . . .   > 

    < show me where I'm wrong.      > 

    =================================

  

    In the interest of creative evolution

    of the-best-we-know-how-to-do based

    on physics and good practice.

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