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Voyager
Joined: 30 Jun 2020
Posts: 77
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 Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2023 1:16 pm Post subject: PIDG vs F crimp uninsulated terminals |
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Bob,
I read your preference for PIDG terminals in your AeroElectric Connection book. I am curious as to your preference for these as compared to F crimp uninsulated terminals.
I’ve always preferred the latter as I generally label my wirings using printed shrink wrap and that makes a neater installation over the uninsulated terminals and provides decent insulation. I simply find the uninsulated connectors easier to inspect for a good crimp and smaller in OD which is nice on small gauge wires.
I see that both B & C and SteinAir only carry the insulated style terminals, but I’ve never seen a discussion as to pros and cons as compared to uninsulated F crimps.
Thanks,
Matt
Sent from my iPad
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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
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| Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2023 5:37 am Post subject: PIDG vs F crimp uninsulated terminals |
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| Quote: |
Bob,
I read your preference for PIDG terminals in your AeroElectric Connection book.
I am curious as to your preference for these as compared to F crimp uninsulated terminals. |
Not sure where the 'F-crimp' terminology comes from
but I assume you're talking about the same kinds
of terminals that reside under the insulation grip
feature of a PIDG terminal.
My 'preferences' parrot on legacy practices
I first encountered in 1961 on the B52 and continue
to this day on countless production aircraft as well
as environmentally challenged vehicles.
But let's step back and consider the requirements for
connector performance and longevity. GAS tight, RESISTANCE
to vibration, PROTECTION from environmental effects.
The PIDG technology has been exploited for nearly
a century as a reasonably priced technology to those
ends.
However, take a stroll through the TE Connectivity
(formerly AMP inc) catalog and you'll find thousands
of products of which a SMALL percentage are PIDG
yet many are qualified to military or SAE specifications
to achieve those golden-goals.
| Quote: | I’ve always preferred the latter as I generally label my wirings using
printed shrink wrap and that makes a neater installation over the
uninsulated terminals and provides decent insulation. |
Keep in mind that the "insulator" is not intended
to be some safeguard against shorts. It is the
INSULATION GRIP that goes to vibration resistance.
There are articles on my website that speak to BOTH
PIDG and b-crimp (open barrel) terminations. There is probably
NO termination technique that cannot be made to
produce crimps to the golden-goals of wire termination.
If TE Connectivity (and scads of others) sells it,
it's probably golden.
HOWEVER . . . when you choose terminals and application
tools from their catalogs, they are MATED to specific
sizes of wire. So when you're shopping mix-n-match
for wire, terminals and tools the onus is on YOU
to make sure your choices mate up satisfactorily.
Un-insulated terminals generally don't offer insulation
support out of the box. This can be offset by
heat-shrink (the double-wall stuff is good) and
good wire bundle practice to prevent vibratory
forces from shaking things too much. Alternatively,
you can got with b-crimp styles that DO offer
insulation grips
https://tinyurl.com/yu2fsxvh
. . . and can be installed with low cost tools
https://tinyurl.com/yu2fsxvh
| Quote: | I simply find the uninsulated connectors easier to inspect for a
good crimp and smaller in OD which is nice on small gauge wires. |
Sounds like you already have a handle on the golden-goals . . .
good on you!
| Quote: | I see that both B & C and SteinAir only carry the insulated
style terminals, but I've never seen a discussion as to pros
and cons as compared to uninsulated F crimps. |
B&C b-crimp tool cited above is used on terminals
from d-sub pins thru those you've cited. There's
nothing inherently wrong about these technologies
if applied with a good understanding of the physics
involved.
Bob . . .
////
(o o)
===========o00o=(_)=o00o=========
< Go ahead, make my day . . . >
< show me where I'm wrong. >
=================================
In the interest of creative evolution
of the-best-we-know-how-to-do based
on physics and good practice.
| | - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
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Voyager
Joined: 30 Jun 2020
Posts: 77
|
| Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2023 6:16 am Post subject: PIDG vs F crimp uninsulated terminals |
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F crimp is, I believe, what Amp called their first terminals that use what is also called an “open barrel” style crimp. It is the type used on terminals such as Weatherpack, Metricpack, and Deutsch. Deutsch calls them “stamped and formed” rather than “open barrel.” Definitely different than what is used in PIDG terminals.
They are used almost exclusively in automotive and electronics applications. I like them as they are fast as with the proper tool you need only crimp once as the tool crimps the wire and the insulator simultaneously and they are easily inspected for crimp quality. And the good crimps tool positively locate the pin or socket such that both crimps are precisely located every time.
They are anecdotally considered superior to an “oval” or “hex” crimp (such as used in PIDG) for smaller conductors, but I haven’t seen any data that actually proves that.
I was curious if there was a particular reason you were aware of that would suggest not using them for aviation applications or if it was more of unfamiliarity with that style.
Regards,
Matt
Sent from my iPad
| Quote: | On Mar 15, 2023, at 9:41 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
Bob,
I read your preference for PIDG terminals in your AeroElectric Connection book.
I am curious as to your preference for these as compared to F crimp uninsulated terminals. |
Not sure where the 'F-crimp' terminology comes from
but I assume you're talking about the same kinds
of terminals that reside under the insulation grip
feature of a PIDG terminal.
My 'preferences' parrot on legacy practices
I first encountered in 1961 on the B52 and continue
to this day on countless production aircraft as well
as environmentally challenged vehicles.
But let's step back and consider the requirements for
connector performance and longevity. GAS tight, RESISTANCE
to vibration, PROTECTION from environmental effects.
The PIDG technology has been exploited for nearly
a century as a reasonably priced technology to those
ends.
However, take a stroll through the TE Connectivity
(formerly AMP inc) catalog and you'll find thousands
of products of which a SMALL percentage are PIDG
yet many are qualified to military or SAE specifications
to achieve those golden-goals.
| Quote: | I’ve always preferred the latter as I generally label my wirings using
printed shrink wrap and that makes a neater installation over the
uninsulated terminals and provides decent insulation. |
Keep in mind that the "insulator" is not intended
to be some safeguard against shorts. It is the
INSULATION GRIP that goes to vibration resistance.
There are articles on my website that speak to BOTH
PIDG and b-crimp (open barrel) terminations. There is probably
NO termination technique that cannot be made to
produce crimps to the golden-goals of wire termination.
If TE Connectivity (and scads of others) sells it,
it's probably golden.
HOWEVER . . . when you choose terminals and application
tools from their catalogs, they are MATED to specific
sizes of wire. So when you're shopping mix-n-match
for wire, terminals and tools the onus is on YOU
to make sure your choices mate up satisfactorily.
Un-insulated terminals generally don't offer insulation
support out of the box. This can be offset by
heat-shrink (the double-wall stuff is good) and
good wire bundle practice to prevent vibratory
forces from shaking things too much. Alternatively,
you can got with b-crimp styles that DO offer
insulation grips
https://tinyurl.com/yu2fsxvh
. . . and can be installed with low cost tools
https://tinyurl.com/yu2fsxvh
| Quote: | I simply find the uninsulated connectors easier to inspect for a
good crimp and smaller in OD which is nice on small gauge wires. |
Sounds like you already have a handle on the golden-goals . . .
good on you!
| Quote: | I see that both B & C and SteinAir only carry the insulated
style terminals, but I've never seen a discussion as to pros
and cons as compared to uninsulated F crimps. |
B&C b-crimp tool cited above is used on terminals
from d-sub pins thru those you've cited. There's
nothing inherently wrong about these technologies
if applied with a good understanding of the physics
involved.
Bob . . .
////
(o o)
===========o00o=(_)=o00o=========
< Go ahead, make my day . . . >
< show me where I'm wrong. >
=================================
In the interest of creative evolution
of the-best-we-know-how-to-do based
on physics and good practice.
|
| | - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2023 8:24 am Post subject: PIDG vs F crimp uninsulated terminals |
|
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At 09:15 AM 3/15/2023, you wrote:
| Quote: | F crimp is, I believe, what Amp called their first terminals that use what
is also called an 'open barrel' style crimp. It is the type used on
terminals such as Weatherpack, Metricpack, and Deutsch. Deutsch
calls them 'stamped and formed' rather than 'open barrel'.Definitely different than what is used in PIDG terminals. |
The stamped, open-barrel termination was un my
experience called a B-crimp . . . so named because of the
shape formed by the folded over tabs of the terminal
Yes, we've studied/discussed that technology
several times over the years . . . they are
indeed different.
| Quote: | They are used almost exclusively in automotive and electronics applications.
I like them as they are fast as with the proper tool you need only
crimp once as the tool crimps the wire and the insulator simultaneously
and they are easily inspected for crimp quality. And the good crimps tool
positively locate the pin or socket such that both crimps are precisely
located every time. |
Okay, you're referring to the upscale application tools
for those terminals . . . these would be on the same level
as the t-head AMP tool found on virtually every TC
aircraft production line . . . along with qualified 'b-crimp'
tools.
| Quote: | They are anecdotally considered superior to an oval or hex crimp (such
as used in PIDG) for smaller conductors, but I haven;t seen any data that
actually proves that. |
Okay, apply the golden-goals smell-test. What questions
arise as to the ability of a tool to produce a void-free
joining of the terminal and wire? Is there a credible
demonstration of insulation-grip support to protect the
wire-grip from flexure-failure?
I cannot imagine how anyone would assign superiority
of one termination technique over another except that
they might have suffered a bad experience arising
from mismatch of tool/wire/terminal requirements
for a good installation. Well considered mating of
tool and terminal to wire WILL in all cases produce
an entirely satisfactory installation.
We had some discussion here on the List 20 or more
years ago about failures of female fast-on terminals
to achieve a lasting grip on their mated tab. Turns
out that the disappointed user's choice of terminals
featured copper alloy that was not designed for this
service . . . it was too-soft brass. This is another
feature of the PIDG theology . . . produced and
qualified by companies like AMP, Thomas-Betts, et. als.
difficult questions like "what's this thing made of?"
become insignificant. Fast-ons need to be pretty
'stiff' like phosphor bronze.
| Quote: | I was curious if there was a particular reason you were aware of that
would suggest not using them for aviation applications or if it was
more of unfamiliarity with that style. |
Your mention of "uninsulated" and "f-crimp" did not
produce accurate, first-image thoughts. I was thinking
of PIDG type terminals minus the plastic and F connectors
for cable tv signals.
I am very familiar with the formed sheet metal, open
barrel technology and I've written about it on these
pages and my website. The reasons to choose one over
the other in a production environment are generally
founded on specificity of the task as long as golden-goals
for termination are achieved to install right terminal
on the wire with the right tool.
You mentioned suitability of PIDG styles for 'smaller'
wires. There are terminals offered for the 24-26AWG
range of conductors
https://tinyurl.com/5c5nhxjf
but they're expensive, rarely used and tools for
proper installation are not cheap. Further, the need
to put a ring terminal on so small a wire is problematic.
The TC airplane guys are loath to run wires smaller
than 22AWG trough the airframe.
When such wires ARE called out, you're much more likely
to them through connectors having quad-crimp or b-crimp pins.
Bob . . .
////
(o o)
===========o00o=(_)=o00o=========
< Go ahead, make my day . . . >
< show me where I'm wrong. >
=================================
In the interest of creative evolution
of the-best-we-know-how-to-do based
on physics and good practice.
| | - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
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