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Mudfly

Joined: 04 Feb 2012
Posts: 37

Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2023 4:53 pm Post subject: Re: Primary Power Diagram RV-14

[quote="Mudfly"]Small changes to the Primary Power System diagram.  

Also added interconnect drawing for STBY Batteries.

Updated drawings attached.(UPDATE 2/7/22 -REMOVED INTERCONNECT DRAWING FOR STBY BATTERIES -- AFTER CONSULTING TCW, I WAS 

ADVISED MY DIAGRAM WAS WIRED INCORRECTLY)  Back to the drawing 

board for that system.[/quote]

Mudfly

Joined: 04 Feb 2012
Posts: 37

Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2023 12:38 pm Post subject: Re: Primary Power Diagram RV-14

I have made changes to the Primary Power system design.  I switched

from CBs to fuses as recommended my several.   I eliminated one bus

completely, and moved the Hot Batt Bus firewall fwd.   I am still reviewing 

fuse and wire sizing.  For Busses, I will be using the Eaton 15711-20-11A

for the Main Power Bus, and the Bussmann 156-14-20 for the 

Avionics/Essential Bus.   The Main Power Bus will be located in the cabin

on the fwd portion of the center tunnel.  There is a vertical post there in 

the RV14 that works well for fuses and CBs.  The avionics bus will also be

in the cabin located under the Rt side of the avionics compartment..just

above co-pilots knees.   It will be mounted with fuses facing the deck.  



One question I have regards the avionics relay.  I've read that some 

prefer a normally closed relay in case of switch failure.  Would it 

also allow less "wear and tear" on the relay during normal use?   

Most of the time, this relay will be closed which requires constant 

power to close the relay. Will this cause heat / pre-mature wear?   Just curious.    

Please feel free to reply with any observations/suggestions for this new 

design.

Sorry, still in eye test format.  

Thanks.

Shawn

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Ceengland

Joined: 11 Oct 2020
Posts: 379
Location: MS

Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2023 2:46 pm Post subject: Re: Primary Power Diagram RV-14

If you use a normally closed relay, it will be closed unless the coil is powered. If you need to 'load shed', then you'll be adding the relay load to shed the rest of the load.



My purchased RV6 has a center post under the instrument panel. It is an unbelievable pain in the backside (and back) every time I have to dumpster dive under the panel. I'd just take it out, but the builder routed every single wire going aft of the spar down that post. If the -14 console is there, you might want to give that some thought. ;-)



Can you maybe use a jpg attachment instead of pdf? That way we could see the image of the drawing without having to download & save it to our computers each time.

_________________
Charlie

Mudfly

Joined: 04 Feb 2012
Posts: 37

Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2023 5:22 pm Post subject: Re: Primary Power Diagram RV-14

[quote="Ceengland"]If you use a normally closed relay, it will be closed unless the coil is powered. If you need to 'load shed', then you'll be adding the relay load to shed the rest of the load.



My purchased RV6 has a center post under the instrument panel. It is an unbelievable pain in the backside (and back) every time I have to dumpster dive under the panel. I'd just take it out, but the builder routed every single wire going aft of the spar down that post. If the -14 console is there, you might want to give that some thought. 



Can you maybe use a jpg attachment instead of pdf? That way we could see the image of the drawing without having to download & save it to our computers each time.[/quote]



Thanks Charlie.

I'll have to think about the relay scenarios over coffee in the morning.   I 

have an essential switch that will load shed the main power bus.  The avionics/essential bus can then be powered by the stby alt or the batt.  I suppose there could be a situation where I may need to only shed the avionics/esential bus.      

However, unless there's a good reason to have the relay normally closed, I would prefer to keep it normally open.  I'm using a lighted honeywell AML34 rocker switch for the  avionics switch.  If I have to turn it upside down the lighted portion won't match the others in the row.   

Also, thanks for the idea to convert my attached pdf files to jpg.   I will

see if I can make that happen.  

Shawn

Mudfly

Joined: 04 Feb 2012
Posts: 37

Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2023 6:03 pm Post subject: Re: Primary Power Diagram RV-14

Attempting to attach jpg file of Primary Power system.

Last edited by Mudfly on Thu Mar 16, 2023 5:50 am; edited 1 time in total

johnbright

Joined: 14 Dec 2011
Posts: 165
Location: Newport News, VA

Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2023 6:04 pm Post subject: Re: Primary Power Diagram RV-14

 	  Ceengland wrote: 	
		  â€¦ Can you maybe use a jpg attachment instead of pdf? That way we could see the image of the drawing without having to download & save it to our computers each time. 	




Iâ€™m happy with PDFs and if the JPG is large in pixels it will force the text in the thread to be small. Either way, I generally download an attached schematic. JPG will be fine for me if the fidelity is good. Maybe attach both.

_________________
John Bright, RV-6A, at FWF, O-360
Z-101 single batt dual alt SDS EM-5-F.
john_s_bright@yahoo.com, Newport News, Va
N1921R links

user9253

Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1908
Location: Riley TWP Michigan

Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2023 7:53 pm Post subject: Re: Primary Power Diagram RV-14

I prefer pdf also.

_________________
Joe Gores

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2023 7:23 am Post subject: Primary Power Diagram RV-14

At 02:38 PM 3/2/2023, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mudfly" <shawntedwards(at)hotmail.com>



 I have made changes to the Primary Power system design.  I switched

 from CBs to fuses as recommended my several.   I eliminated one bus

 completely, and moved the Hot Batt Bus firewall fwd . . . 	




    I note that you're planning a rather sophisticated

    (and expensive) regulator for the standby alternator.

    You also wire it per B*C suggestions to power regulator

    from the bus which is not firmly connected to the

    b-lead of that same alternator.



    In Z101 I suggest a dirt-cheap regulator for standby

    service powered from the battery bus. Probability of

    needing the stand-by alternator in flight is very

    low. It gets pre-flight tested and then 'stowed'.

    No o.v. protection necessary . . . the likelihood of

    an o.v. event less than 4 hours after a pre-flight

    test is low on a system already unlikely to

    see service under 'duress'.



    Further, powering from the battery bus keeps

    the s/b alternator available in every situation.



 

  	  Quote: 	
		  One question I have regards the avionics relay.  I've read that some 

 prefer a normally closed relay in case of switch failure. 	


    Suggest you consider Z-101 philosophy of diode

    fed normal power pathways with relays and/or

    switches required ONLY for abnormal situations. I.e.

    no switches or relays (other than battery

    contactor) in distribution pathways.



    Yeah, there are many airplanes out there with an

    AVIONICS MASTER switch.  An idea birthed onto

    light aircraft back in the 60's while I was

    building my aviation bona fides at Cessna.

    I bought into it back then . . . but completely

    discounted the concept based on dozens of

    troubleshooting, design and certification projects

    over the years.



    What are the planned instruments for reading

    alternator output? Technology of choice calls

    for hall-effect sensors as opposed to shunts.

    Further, know that alternator b-lead current

    is a trouble-shooting adjunct of limited value

    on the ground and no value in flight.



    You KNOW from having established and verified

    design goals what alternator currents are

    under various flight conditions. Observing

    and pondering those values in flight is a

    distraction. BUS VOLTAGE is your primary source

    of information on system operation with active

    notification of low voltage being the condition

    for transition between plan-A and plan-B.



 

 

   Bob . . .



   Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes

   survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane

   out of that stuff?"

Mudfly

Joined: 04 Feb 2012
Posts: 37

Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2023 5:47 pm Post subject: Re: Primary Power Diagram RV-14

[quote="nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect"]At 02:38 PM 3/2/2023, you wrote:

 [quote]--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mudfly" <shawntedwards>



 I have made changes to the Primary Power system design.  I switched

 from CBs to fuses as recommended my several.   I eliminated one bus

 completely, and moved the Hot Batt Bus firewall fwd . . .[/quote]



    I note that you're planning a rather sophisticated

    (and expensive) regulator for the standby alternator.

    You also wire it per B*C suggestions to power regulator

    from the bus which is not firmly connected to the

    b-lead of that same alternator.



    In Z101 I suggest a dirt-cheap regulator for standby

    service powered from the battery bus. Probability of

    needing the stand-by alternator in flight is very

    low. It gets pre-flight tested and then 'stowed'.

    No o.v. protection necessary . . . the likelihood of

    an o.v. event less than 4 hours after a pre-flight

    test is low on a system already unlikely to

    see service under 'duress'.



    Further, powering from the battery bus keeps

    the s/b alternator available in every situation.



 

 [quote]One question I have regards the avionics relay.  I've read that some 

 prefer a normally closed relay in case of switch failure. [/quote]

    Suggest you consider Z-101 philosophy of diode

    fed normal power pathways with relays and/or

    switches required ONLY for abnormal situations. I.e.

    no switches or relays (other than battery

    contactor) in distribution pathways.



    Yeah, there are many airplanes out there with an

    AVIONICS MASTER switch.  An idea birthed onto

    light aircraft back in the 60's while I was

    building my aviation bona fides at Cessna.

    I bought into it back then . . . but completely

    discounted the concept based on dozens of

    troubleshooting, design and certification projects

    over the years.



    What are the planned instruments for reading

    alternator output? Technology of choice calls

    for hall-effect sensors as opposed to shunts.

    Further, know that alternator b-lead current

    is a trouble-shooting adjunct of limited value

    on the ground and no value in flight.



    You KNOW from having established and verified

    design goals what alternator currents are

    under various flight conditions. Observing

    and pondering those values in flight is a

    distraction. BUS VOLTAGE is your primary source

    of information on system operation with active

    notification of low voltage being the condition

    for transition between plan-A and plan-B.



 

 

   Bob . . .



   Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes

   survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane

   out of that stuff?"[/quote]



Bob,  

Thank you for the thorough review and suggestions to my wire plan.   

Luckily, I am heading out to work for several days so I have some time

to try and figure it all out and come up with a revision.  



Regarding the regulator for the standby alternator.   I may have to 

keep that in my plan as I have both regulators already mounted,

 although not wired yet.  I will, however,  be changing the

standby field wire to the battery bus.  Think I had it that way several revisions ago and forget why I changed it.  



Removing the avionics switch is going to be more difficult.   I realize it's 

not required and just something else to break.  I've been flying a Citation

XLS for 23 years (probably has some of your ideas onboard).   It has 

an avionics switch that we are required to turn off during starts, even

with the APU running.   So for me it's just something I've always had.

With my setup, I would think an avionics relay failure in flight would

hopefully just be a nuisance...unless it caught on fire.   It would be more difficult if it failed on the ground after engine start.   That could keep me grounded a few extra hours.



Now about the shunts.  I understand the monitoring of amps during flight

is about as useless as oh, I don't know, an...avionics switch:).  

Again, just something I've always had.  I see the benefits of the 

hall-effect sensors and, if it looks like one will work ok with my garmin

stuff, I will be making that change.

Thanks again for all your help.  I'll have a new revision up in about 

week.  

Shawn

Mudfly

Joined: 04 Feb 2012
Posts: 37

Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2023 6:42 am Post subject: Primary Power Diagram 3/14/23

I have updated my Primary Power System diagram.  

Changes made:

* Removed two shunts and replaced with one hall effect sensor.

* Moved stdby alt field feed wire from avionics/essential bus to hot bat 

bus.

* Moved essential bus relay firewall fwd.

*Removed current limiter between bat contactor and essential bus relay. 

*Added 4-post bus bar between battery contactor and main power bus. 

*Reduced wire size from 4awg to 6awg on pri alt b lead.  



Pending:

*Possible removal of avionics switch and relay.



Questions:

* I moved the essential bus relay firewall fwd.   My thinking was it

 provides improved crash protection.  Is this a good plan, or was the 

30 amp current limiter I had in place on previous diagrams sufficient and keep the 

relay aft of firewall?  Do these relays hold up well FWF?

* The stby alt fied wire is now fed from the hot bat bus.  I show a 20awg

FLW protecting that wire.   Is this ok for through the firewall wires?  

*Is a FLW from the essential bus relay to the bus needed?

*I'm still figuring out relay types.  I see most use a DPDT .  For my setup

could I use a SPST?  I'm looking at N.O. at 30 amp models.

Recommendations?

* I added a 4-post bus bar (Blue Sea System 2315 100 amp) between

bat contactor and main power bus.   Reasoning was based on the fuse

block I'm using (Eaton 15711-20-21A) has one stud for power

connections.

 My setup requires three 

wires; main power bus feed, pri alt field flw, and avionics relay feed.

I don't see a good way to make those connections on that single stud.    I have a good location for the 

4-post bus bar that will allow for clean wire runs and easy serviceability.    Thoughts?

Thanks, Shawn

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werner schneider

Joined: 24 May 2021
Posts: 57

Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2023 1:29 pm Post subject: Primary Power Diagram RV-14

On 04.03.2023 16:22, Robert L.       Nuckolls, III wrote:

     

      	  Quote: 	
		                At 02:38 PM 3/2/2023, you wrote:

               	  Quote: 	
		  -->           AeroElectric-List message           posted by: "Mudfly" <shawntedwards(at)hotmail.com> (shawntedwards(at)hotmail.com)

           

           I have made changes to the Primary Power system design.Â  I           switched

           from CBs to fuses as recommended my several.Â Â  I eliminated           one           bus

           completely, and moved the Hot Batt Bus firewall fwd . .           . 	
       

       

       Â Â  I note that you're planning a rather sophisticated

       Â Â  (and expensive) regulator for the standby alternator.

       Â Â  You also wire it per B*C suggestions to power regulator

       Â Â  from the bus which is not firmly connected to the

       Â Â  b-lead of that same alternator.

       

       Â Â  In Z101 I suggest a dirt-cheap regulator for standby

       Â Â  service powered from the battery bus. Probability of

       Â Â  needing the stand-by alternator in flight is very

       Â Â  low. It gets pre-flight tested and then 'stowed'.

       Â Â  No o.v. protection necessary . . . the likelihood of

       Â Â  an o.v. event less than 4 hours after a pre-flight

       Â Â  test is low on a system already unlikely to

       Â Â  see service under 'duress'.

       

       Â Â  Further, powering from the battery bus keeps

       Â Â  the s/b alternator available in every situation.

       

       	
     Hi Bob,

     

     I'm planing as well a Z101 version with the SB1B-14 instead of the     cheap regulator.

     Reason is, that with the SB1B-14 I can just switch both alternators     on for a single pilot IFR plane, so to lower the workload in case of     (rare) failure of the primary alternator.

     

     I guess there is no drawback on that except price (which is a small     percentage of the avionics price , but the Voltage sense taken of     the battery bus (Shawn you still have that on the essential).

     

     I still would go along the 101 route, having both alternators on a     separate switch and the essential bus feed via a diode matrix and     alternate feed path via relay direct from battery.

     

     I will share all of this in a few weeks when I have sorted out all     details in a separate entry in this list.

     

     Am I right with my thinking on this?

     

     Thanks for your support (I'm able to profit from since 23 years 

     

     Cheers Werner

Mudfly

Joined: 04 Feb 2012
Posts: 37

Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2023 6:31 am Post subject: Re: Primary Power Diagram RV-14

I think I'm nearing the end of my wannabe EE career and moving towards

production/installation.  

I'm attaching what I think will be my "final" plan.  I'm sure there are things

some would do differently.  I have run the realistic scenarios I can think of through my head and believe I have a plan for all.

It does have a couple of failure modes that will require simple checklist procedures to rectify.

I am pretty slow at installation.  If anyone notices an area that may be a

safety of flight issue, please let me know and I will make the necessary

changes.         

I appreciate the help from the members of this forum.   

Shawn

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STBY BATTS INTERCONNECONNECTS 3-16-23.pdf

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david(at)carter.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2023 7:38 am Post subject: Primary Power Diagram RV-14

1. I'd replace both ANLs with fusible links. I have the same pair of alternators set up this way. Simpler to install, marginally less weight.Â 2. Why two standby batteries when you have an aux alt? Standby batteries are limited in capacityÂ (run time) and add weight & complexity. Aux alt runtime = duration of fuel remaining. I added a TCW Intelligent Power Stabilizer instead to deal with any voltage sag during starter operation.Â 

---

David Carter

david(at)carter.net (david(at)carter.net)



On Thu, Mar 16, 2023 at 10:33â€¯AM Mudfly <shawntedwards(at)hotmail.com (shawntedwards(at)hotmail.com)> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mudfly" <shawntedwards(at)hotmail.com (shawntedwards(at)hotmail.com)>

 

 I think I'm nearing the end of my wannabe EE career and moving towards

 production/installation.Â  

 I'm attaching what I think will be my "final" plan.Â  I'm sure there are things

 some would do differently.Â  I have run the realistic scenarios I can think of through my head and believe I have a plan for all.

 It does have a couple of failure modes that will require simple checklist procedures to rectify.

 I am pretty slow at installation.Â  If anyone notices an area that may be a

 safety of flight issue, please let me know and I will make the necessary

 changes.Â  Â  Â  Â  Â 

 I appreciate the help from the members of this forum.Â  Â 

 Shawn

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=510427#510427

 

 

 

 

 Attachments: 

 

 http://forums.matronics.com//files/primary_power_system_3_16_23_242.pdf

 http://forums.matronics.com//files/stby_batts_interconneconnects_3_16_23_130.pdf

 

 

 

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david(at)carter.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2023 7:56 am Post subject: Primary Power Diagram RV-14

Sorry for the additional reply, but I noticed a couple more things:3. Safety of flight - put the autopilot servos on a pullable breaker that is easy to identify & easy to reach, rather than on a fuse.

4. No need for a Hobbs meter - that is a built-in EFIS function.Â 

---

David Carter

david(at)carter.net (david(at)carter.net)



On Thu, Mar 16, 2023 at 11:37â€¯AM David Carter <david(at)carter.net (david(at)carter.net)> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  1. I'd replace both ANLs with fusible links. I have the same pair of alternators set up this way. Simpler to install, marginally less weight.Â 2. Why two standby batteries when you have an aux alt? Standby batteries are limited in capacityÂ (run time) and add weight & complexity. Aux alt runtime = duration of fuel remaining. I added a TCW Intelligent Power Stabilizer instead to deal with any voltage sag during starter operation.Â 

---

David Carter

david(at)carter.net (david(at)carter.net)



On Thu, Mar 16, 2023 at 10:33â€¯AM Mudfly <shawntedwards(at)hotmail.com (shawntedwards(at)hotmail.com)> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mudfly" <shawntedwards(at)hotmail.com (shawntedwards(at)hotmail.com)>

 

 I think I'm nearing the end of my wannabe EE career and moving towards

 production/installation.Â  

 I'm attaching what I think will be my "final" plan.Â  I'm sure there are things

 some would do differently.Â  I have run the realistic scenarios I can think of through my head and believe I have a plan for all.

 It does have a couple of failure modes that will require simple checklist procedures to rectify.

 I am pretty slow at installation.Â  If anyone notices an area that may be a

 safety of flight issue, please let me know and I will make the necessary

 changes.Â  Â  Â  Â  Â 

 I appreciate the help from the members of this forum.Â  Â 

 Shawn

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=510427#510427

 

 

 

 

 Attachments: 

 

 http://forums.matronics.com//files/primary_power_system_3_16_23_242.pdf

 http://forums.matronics.com//files/stby_batts_interconneconnects_3_16_23_130.pdf

 

 

 

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werner schneider

Joined: 24 May 2021
Posts: 57

Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2023 8:16 am Post subject: Primary Power Diagram RV-14

3. or add a switch to power them off but I agree in case of AP problems

it is wise to have the possibility to power off the servos.



On 16.03.2023 16:55, David Carter wrote:

[quote] Sorry for the additional reply, but I noticed a couple more things:

 3. Safety of flight - put the autopilot servos on a pullable breaker

 that is easy to identify & easy to reach, rather than on a fuse.

 4. No need for a Hobbs meter - that is a built-in EFIS function.

 ---

 David Carter

 david(at)carter.net

 On Thu, Mar 16, 2023 at 11:37â€¯AM David Carter <david(at)carter.net> wrote:



     1. I'd replace both ANLs with fusible links. I have the same pair

     of alternators set up this way. Simpler to install, marginally

     less weight.

     2. Why two standby batteries when you have an aux alt? Standby

     batteries are limited in capacityÂ (run time) and add weight &

     complexity. Aux alt runtime = duration of fuel remaining. I added

     a TCW Intelligent Power Stabilizer instead to deal with any

     voltage sag during starter operation.



     ---

     David Carter

     david(at)carter.net

     On Thu, Mar 16, 2023 at 10:33â€¯AM Mudfly

     <shawntedwards(at)hotmail.com> wrote:



         

         <shawntedwards(at)hotmail.com>



         I think I'm nearing the end of my wannabe EE career and moving

         towards

         production/installation.

         I'm attaching what I think will be my "final" plan.Â  I'm sure

         there are things

         some would do differently.Â  I have run the realistic scenarios

         I can think of through my head and believe I have a plan for all

Voyager

Joined: 30 Jun 2020
Posts: 77

Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2023 8:28 am Post subject: Primary Power Diagram RV-14

A switch is the approach I am taking.  Iâ€™d rather have a switch and fuse, than a breaker and it is less expensive to boot.



Sent from my iPad



 	  Quote: 	
		  On Mar 16, 2023, at 12:18 PM, Werner Schneider <glastar(at)gmx.net> wrote:



ï»¿                   3. or add a switch to power them off but I agree in case of AP     problems it is wise to have the possibility to power off the servos.

     

     On 16.03.2023 16:55, David Carter       wrote:

     

      	  Quote: 	
		         Sorry for the additional reply, but I noticed a         couple more things:         3. Safety of flight - put the autopilot servos on a           pullable breaker that is easy to identify & easy to reach,           rather than on a fuse.

         4. No need for a Hobbs meter - that is a built-in EFIS           function. 

         

         

         

                        ---

               David Carter

               david(at)carter.net (david(at)carter.net)

           

           

         

       

       

                On Thu, Mar 16, 2023 at           11:37â€¯AM David Carter <david(at)carter.net (david(at)carter.net)>           wrote:

         

          	  Quote: 	
		             1. I'd replace both ANLs with fusible links. I             have the same pair of alternators set up this way. Simpler             to install, marginally less weight.              2. Why two standby batteries when you have an aux alt?               Standby batteries are limited in capacity (run time) and               add weight & complexity. Aux alt runtime = duration of               fuel remaining. I added a TCW Intelligent Power Stabilizer               instead to deal with any voltage sag during starter               operation. 

             

                                ---

                   David Carter

                   david(at)carter.net (david(at)carter.net)

               

               

             

           

           

                        On Thu, Mar 16, 2023 at               10:33â€¯AM Mudfly <shawntedwards(at)hotmail.com (shawntedwards(at)hotmail.com)>               wrote:

             

              	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List               message posted by: "Mudfly" <shawntedwards(at)hotmail.com (shawntedwards(at)hotmail.com)>

               

               I think I'm nearing the end of my wannabe EE career and               moving towards

               production/installation.  

               I'm attaching what I think will be my "final" plan.  I'm               sure there are things

               some would do differently.  I have run the realistic               scenarios I can think of through my head and believe I               have a plan for all.

               It does have a couple of failure modes that will require               simple checklist procedures to rectify.

               I am pretty slow at installation.  If anyone notices an               area that may be a

               safety of flight issue, please let me know and I will make               the necessary

               changes.         

               I appreciate the help from the members of this forum.   

               Shawn

               

               

               

               

               Read this topic online here:

               

               http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=510427#510427

               

               

               

               

               Attachments: 

               

               http://forums.matronics.com//files/primary_power_system_3_16_23_242.pdf

               http://forums.matronics.com//files/stby_batts_interconneconnects_3_16_23_130.pdf

               

               

               

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johnbright

Joined: 14 Dec 2011
Posts: 165
Location: Newport News, VA

Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2023 9:00 am Post subject: Re: Primary Power Diagram RV-14

 	  david(at)carter.net wrote: 	
		  ... I added a TCW Intelligent Power Stabilizer instead to deal with any voltage sag during starter operation... 	




AFAIK GAD 27 does this.

_________________
John Bright, RV-6A, at FWF, O-360
Z-101 single batt dual alt SDS EM-5-F.
john_s_bright@yahoo.com, Newport News, Va
N1921R links

johnbright

Joined: 14 Dec 2011
Posts: 165
Location: Newport News, VA

Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2023 10:06 am Post subject: Re: Primary Power Diagram 3/14/23

 	  Mudfly wrote: 	
		  I have updated my Primary Power System diagram.  

Changes made:

* Removed two shunts and replaced with one hall effect sensor.

* Moved stdby alt field feed wire from avionics/essential bus to hot bat 

bus.

* Moved essential bus relay firewall fwd.

*Removed current limiter between bat contactor and essential bus relay. 

*Added 4-post bus bar between battery contactor and main power bus. 

*Reduced wire size from 4awg to 6awg on pri alt b lead.  



Pending:

*Possible removal of avionics switch and relay.



Questions:

* I moved the essential bus relay firewall fwd.   My thinking was it

 provides improved crash protection.  Is this a good plan, or was the 

30 amp current limiter I had in place on previous diagrams sufficient and keep the 

relay aft of firewall?  Do these relays hold up well FWF?

* The stby alt fied wire is now fed from the hot bat bus.  I show a 20awg

FLW protecting that wire.   Is this ok for through the firewall wires?  

*Is a FLW from the essential bus relay to the bus needed?

*I'm still figuring out relay types.  I see most use a DPDT .  For my setup

could I use a SPST?  I'm looking at N.O. at 30 amp models.

Recommendations?

* I added a 4-post bus bar (Blue Sea System 2315 100 amp) between

bat contactor and main power bus.   Reasoning was based on the fuse

block I'm using (Eaton 15711-20-21A) has one stud for power

connections.

 My setup requires three 

wires; main power bus feed, pri alt field flw, and avionics relay feed.

I don't see a good way to make those connections on that single stud.    I have a good location for the 

4-post bus bar that will allow for clean wire runs and easy serviceability.    Thoughts?

Thanks, Shawn 	




My thoughts re "Primary Power System 3-16-23.pdf":



Moving the esential bus relay firewall forward meets FAR 23.1361 which is good. The asterisks on Z101B imply the relay, bus, and diode are all FWF.



The standby alternator field and V Sense are still on the essential bus.

Rev 3-14-23 had the field on the battery bus and does not meet FAR 23.1361 because of the FLW, a relay would be required which is where putting it on the essential bus gets you a "free" relay. Z101B does meet the spirit of 23.1361 because it has a fuse, which cannot be used with a crowbar.

I measured 22 mA parasitic load in the V sense at 12.5V with Bus pin 6 disconnected, either SB1 or LR3, it will drain the battery if connected to the battery bus. If connected to the essential bus the setpoint will rise by the diode drop when the essential bus relay is open. Perhaps a double pole standby alternator swtich, one pole for Bus pin 6 relaly and one pole for V Sense and LV Lamp.



In normal ops the Batt/Esntl switch would be at Batt, the Pri/Stby Alt switch would be at Pri, and the Avionics switch would be on. If the Bat/Esntl switch is moved to Esntl the main bus stays alive with the now batteryless main alternator.

If the Pri/Stby Alt switch is moved to Stby the standby alternator's setpoint will go up by the diode drop.



In the fire-in-the-cockpit-main-master-off scenario you would move the Bat/Esntl switch to Esntl and the Pri/Stby Alt switch to Stby. This would power the essential bus at the standby alternator's stepoint.



I find written FMEAs to be a chore but I am not able to do them in my head.



I would make a table of possible switch settings and the result and seek a solution where the pilot does not have to ponder switches in an emergency and where no switch settings are a problem. What about a progressive main contactor/main alternator switch, an essential bus switch, and a double pole standby alternator switch with relay at battery bus for the field.



I vote no avionics switch and relay.



Yes, the automotive relays hold up well FWF. Relays in Z schematics are B&C S8009-1 SPST 40A NO / 30A NC (equivalents are RC-400112-NN and 1432791-1) and B&C S704-1 SPST 20A NO / 10A NC (equivalent is T9AP5D52-12).



You might crimp multiple wires into one uninsulated terminal rather than adding studs. Ref https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1RhErTJKOWOL39Aw6lWJwQCgBQZzuCNf9GmS4MCgzcnc/edit?usp=share_link



It's easy to add a 2nd stud to the 15600 essential bus in order to remove an SPOF, loose nut opens both feeds. Snap the cap off, remove the bus strip, find the 2nd hex hole in the base for the stud head, notch the cap for the 2nd stud you add, reassemble. https://photos.app.goo.gl/ZKjbqnU3DfkUKNex2

_________________
John Bright, RV-6A, at FWF, O-360
Z-101 single batt dual alt SDS EM-5-F.
john_s_bright@yahoo.com, Newport News, Va
N1921R links

david(at)carter.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2023 10:48 am Post subject: Primary Power Diagram RV-14

 	  Quote: 	
		  

--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "johnbright" <john_s_bright(at)yahoo.com (john_s_bright(at)yahoo.com)>

 

 

 david(at)carter.net wrote:

 > ... I added a TCW Intelligent Power Stabilizer instead to deal with any voltage sag during starter operation...

 

 

 AFAIK GAD 27 does this. 	




John - you are correct. The GAD 27 does have a power stabilizer built in,Â up to 3.5A. I found in my load analysis that I needed (or wanted) more things to be protected than the GAD alone could handle. The GAD is only providing power protection for one GDU 460 MFD. The TCW IPS protects everything else on my CD bus - PFD, dual ADAHRS, EIS, magnetometer, 650xi GPS/NAV/COM, XM receiver, audio panel.

Â Â

chaskuss(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2023 11:16 am Post subject: Primary Power Diagram RV-14

What happens to your Hobbs count when either your EFIS dies or you upgrade your panel? Can you program the accumulated hours into the new unit??

            

                                                                                        On Thursday, March 16, 2023, 12:06:05 PM EDT, David Carter <david(at)carter.net> wrote:                

                



                



                Sorry for the additional reply, but I noticed a couple more things:3. Safety of flight - put the autopilot servos on a pullable breaker that is easy to identify & easy to reach, rather than on a fuse.

4. No need for a Hobbs meter - that is a built-in EFIS function. 



---David Carterdavid(at)carter.net (david(at)carter.net)





On Thu, Mar 16, 2023 at 11:37â€¯AM David Carter <david(at)carter.net (david(at)carter.net)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  1. I'd replace both ANLs with fusible links. I have the same pair of alternators set up this way. Simpler to install, marginally less weight. 2. Why two standby batteries when you have an aux alt? Standby batteries are limited in capacity (run time) and add weight & complexity. Aux alt runtime = duration of fuel remaining. I added a TCW Intelligent Power Stabilizer instead to deal with any voltage sag during starter operation. 

---David Carterdavid(at)carter.net (david(at)carter.net)



On Thu, Mar 16, 2023 at 10:33â€¯AM Mudfly <shawntedwards(at)hotmail.com (shawntedwards(at)hotmail.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mudfly" <shawntedwards(at)hotmail.com (shawntedwards(at)hotmail.com)>I think I'm nearing the end of my wannabe EE career and moving towardsproduction/installation.  I'm attaching what I think will be my "final" plan.  I'm sure there are thingssome would do differently.  I have run the realistic scenarios I can think of through my head and believe I have a plan for all.It does have a couple of failure modes that will require simple checklist procedures to rectify.I am pretty slow at installation.  If anyone notices an area that may be asafety of flight issue, please let me know and I will make the necessarychanges.         I appreciate the help from the members of this forum.   ShawnRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=510427#510427Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/primary_power_system_3_16_23_242.pdfhttp://forums.matronics.com//files/stby_batts_interconneconnects_3_16_23_130.pdf=========== -Electric-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List=========== FORUMS -eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com===========WIKI -errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com===========b Site -          -Matt Dralle, List Admin.="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://matronics.com/contribution===========

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