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Z101 in an RV-10
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Kellym



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1700
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

PostPosted: Sun Sep 05, 2021 12:48 pm    Post subject: Z101 in an RV-10 Reply with quote

Agreed, however, in most cases it is to deal with two electrically
dependent ignition systems, and/or an essential bus for avionics. I
don't believe the case of electrically dependent fuel system has come
up, at least not recently.
Given your engine needs air, spark and fuel vapors, do you really want
fuel and spark to be dependent on the electrical system?
With the fuel system you both have to have the controllers powered and
both fuel pumps powered, and a means to cross feed power to them.
I'm more comfortable with a plane set up so that if there is any
electrical problem I can just shut off the master and get to nearest
suitable airport without needing electrics. Can only recall one time in
47 years of flying that I needed to do that, but was comforting to be
able to do. Just as limiting power to just an essential bus expands your
options to deal with situation.
Somewhat overlooked in the discussion is that the aircraft is to be
based in Canada, and there are times when the temperatures don't allow
work on an electrical system (ever pulled a battery at -40?) and
locations where spare parts might take a fair amount of time and money
to obtain. Likely remoteness and extreme temps can greatly influence
risks and your choices.
Kelly

On 9/5/2021 10:55 AM, Ken Ryan wrote:
Quote:
It seems to me that the issue of a reliable source of power has been
confronted and fully addressed in Bob's work.

"I think the real analysis is that you need two separate power sources
for the fuel injection and the ignition."


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johnbright



Joined: 14 Dec 2011
Posts: 165
Location: Newport News, VA

PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2021 4:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Z101 in an RV-10 Reply with quote

Some thoughts.

“… (low) chance of dual alternator failure…”

    I plan to fly periodically with the main alternator off to stress test the backup alternator in addition to a preflight functional check.

    Note the backup alternator has a shear coupling with a 500 hour/5 year recommended replacement interval per Vic Syracuse, Tempest says 6 years.

“… second alternators are 20A at most…“

    The B&C 410 and 425 put out 29 and the 462 32A at 2300 RPM on a Lycoming. At 2700 RPM it’s 32 and 35A respectively. Main advantage of 462 is more current at low RPM, ref spec sheets.
=============

Z101 supports fire-the-cockpit-master-off-engine-keeps-running if you fly with the engine bus alternate feed on. And master relay failure is benign in flight and discoverable at preflight.

I plan to fly with the engine bus alternate feed normally on but periodically off in order to stress test its diode feed path from the main bus.

You can easily add a 2nd stud at the opposite end of a Bussmann 15600 series fuse block to make the engine bus feeds from the battery and from the main bus separate, eliminates that stud as an SPOF.

RV-6A with SDS EFI+I and Z101 as a template, not flying yet.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 07, 2021 2:38 pm    Post subject: Z101 in an RV-10 Reply with quote

Quote:
In the RV-10, the battery and battery contactor are located in the tailcone.
Looking at the schematic, I will need to run a large conductor (probably 2AWG)
forward from the contactor to the starter.

4AWG is fine

Quote:
My concern is that the "fat wire tie point" for the battery bus, aux bus,
and engine bus will need a second large conductor run forward (my aux and
engine busses have decent loads due to IFR and EFII equipment). This
seems like it will add considerable weight...

"second large conductor", "decent loads", "considerable weight"
are not quantified. The best decisions are made with calculated
data. What are the loads on conductors to those busses from
their aux power relays?

Quote:
The only solution I can imagine would be to leave the battery in the tail
and move the battery contactor forward to the firewall.

No. Battery contactors go next to batteries as do
the aux power relays. See the (*) symbol on the
upstream conductors?

Quote:
This would leave a long length of unprotected wire

Not recommended nor necessary

Quote:
This might become more clear as I start to actually run wires but for now it seems less than ideal. Thoughts?

You have two aux bus feeders. I suspect 10AWG would be
quite sufficient . . . but do the numbers. What are the
loads and how long are they?

10AWG is on the order of .04 lb/ft so two 8' runs
would add about 10 ounces. An 8' run of 2AWG is
right at 2 pounds; 4AWG is about 1.2 pounds. So
down-size to 4AWG and add two runs of 10AWG and
it's about a wash.

Your exact results may vary . . .


Bob . . .

Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"


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Watzlavick



Joined: 06 Sep 2021
Posts: 3
Location: Texas

PostPosted: Tue Sep 07, 2021 6:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Z101 in an RV-10 Reply with quote

I'm also considering Z101 for my RV-10 but I'm concerned about the always hot B-lead from the aux alternator to the rear mounted battery in a crash situation. I see 3 options: 1) add another contactor between the aux alternator and battery, 2) use Z-12 instead, or 3) don't fret about the hot B-lead. I've searched through the archives quite a bit and there doesn't seem to be a good consensus whether having an always hot lead with a rear battery is a really bad idea or not.

A different question if I may - With Z-101 and the aux alt off, if the battery contactor fails open (unlikely I know) but the main alternator is still running, the battery would then charge via the diode between the main and Endurance bus assuming that relay is closed. Depending on the battery charge state, It seems possible the charge current could blow the fuseable link between the battery and Endurance bus, taking the battery off line. Seems like a diode is needed between the Endurance bus and battery to prevent that. Or is the battery charge current sufficiently limited?

-Robert


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Ceengland



Joined: 11 Oct 2020
Posts: 378
Location: MS

PostPosted: Tue Sep 07, 2021 6:44 pm    Post subject: Z101 in an RV-10 Reply with quote

On 9/7/2021 9:05 PM, Watzlavick wrote:
Quote:


I'm also considering Z101 for my RV-10 but I'm concerned about the always hot B-lead from the aux alternator to the rear mounted battery in a crash situation. I see 3 options: 1) add another contactor between the aux alternator and battery, 2) use Z-12 instead, or 3) don't fret about the hot B-lead. I've searched through the archives quite a bit and there doesn't seem to be a good consensus whether having an always hot lead with a rear battery is a really bad idea or not.

A different question if I may - With Z-101 and the aux alt off, if the battery contactor fails open (unlikely I know) but the main alternator is still running, the battery would then charge via the diode between the main and Endurance bus assuming that relay is closed. Depending on the battery charge state, It seems possible the charge current could blow the fuseable link between the battery and Endurance bus, taking the battery off line. Seems like a diode is needed between the Endurance bus and battery to prevent that. Or is the battery charge current sufficiently limited?

-Robert
The 10ga aux B lead is protected by the 14ga fusible link. I didn't try

to read the Z101B notes, but I'd assume that wire sizes for the aux alt
assume a smaller alternator (typical B&C, etc vac pad mounted alternator
(at) ~30A max). The 10ga wire with 14ga fusible link should work for 30A.

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Watzlavick



Joined: 06 Sep 2021
Posts: 3
Location: Texas

PostPosted: Tue Sep 07, 2021 6:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Z101 in an RV-10 Reply with quote

Good point - after I sent the email, I started looking at charge currents and you're right - it's limited by the alternator output. I guess you could call the lack of a diode there a feature in that it allows the battery to be charged via an alternate path. It also seems like it would provide some load stabilization for the alternator.

-Robert


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A Lumley



Joined: 12 May 2021
Posts: 10
Location: Ontario, Canada

PostPosted: Wed Sep 08, 2021 5:00 am    Post subject: Re: Z101 in an RV-10 Reply with quote

Quote:
"second large conductor", "decent loads", "considerable weight"
are not quantified. The best decisions are made with calculated
data. What are the loads on conductors to those busses from
their aux power relays?


My engine bus currently has loads of about 27 Amps with both fuel pumps and coils operating. The aux bus is loaded to about 19 amps. Currently I am planning a 10AWG feeder into each bus from their respective relays and a 6AWG second conductor forward from the battery. These are conservative but I figure they'll be important connections should I ever need them so would prefer them a little larger.

I've attached my current schematic which hopefully makes things clearer.


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RV-10 Schematic 1.0.pdf
 Description:

Download
 Filename:  RV-10 Schematic 1.0.pdf
 Filesize:  1.97 MB
 Downloaded:  234 Time(s)

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Watzlavick



Joined: 06 Sep 2021
Posts: 3
Location: Texas

PostPosted: Wed Sep 08, 2021 5:52 am    Post subject: Re: Z101 in an RV-10 Reply with quote

Thanks for posting the schematic. So appropriate sizing of the aux bus wires handles my second concern which is charging the battery through the main to aux diode. What are your thoughts about the always hot wire between the battery and aux alt? Without an additional contactor, there's no way to make the wire cold if needed.
-Robert


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A Lumley



Joined: 12 May 2021
Posts: 10
Location: Ontario, Canada

PostPosted: Wed Sep 08, 2021 6:08 am    Post subject: Re: Z101 in an RV-10 Reply with quote

I don't see a problem with that segment. The portion forward of the firewall will be protected by an ANL fuse. I don't think there's a way around having a smaller always hot wire that runs from the battery to the fat wire tie point which I plan to mount on the cockpit side of the firewall. By adding another contactor you're just adding another component and if I ever need to fly on battery alone, I don't want the additional current draw of an extra contactor.

I'm planning on using an EarthX battery so I figure if for some reason that hot battery cable was shorted to ground, at least the battery BMS would disconnect the battery hopefully preventing a fire. Although I think the best protection is to run that wire carefully with lots of mechanical protection in its own conduit or similar.


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Kellym



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1700
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

PostPosted: Wed Sep 08, 2021 6:13 am    Post subject: Z101 in an RV-10 Reply with quote

You might be interested that my entire load for Day VFR in my RV-10 is
13 amps, with 2 EFIS, IFR GPS/nav/com, 2nd com, transponder, strobes,
etc. Of course engine is zero unless I run the boost pump at about 8
amps. I don't get above 30 amps unless I am running landing lights and
pitot heat.
How big a primary alternator are you planning?

On 9/8/2021 6:00 AM, A Lumley wrote:
Quote:



> "second large conductor", "decent loads", "considerable weight"
> are not quantified. The best decisions are made with calculated
> data. What are the loads on conductors to those busses from
> their aux power relays?


My engine bus currently has loads of about 27 Amps with both fuel pumps and coils operating. The aux bus is loaded to about 19 amps. Currently I am planning a 10AWG feeder into each bus from their respective relays and a 6AWG second conductor forward from the battery. These are conservative but I figure they'll be important connections should I ever need them so would prefer them a little larger.

I've attached my current schematic which hopefully makes things clearer.




Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=503092#503092




Attachments:

http://forums.matronics.com//files/rv_10_schematic_10_972.pdf








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A Lumley



Joined: 12 May 2021
Posts: 10
Location: Ontario, Canada

PostPosted: Wed Sep 08, 2021 6:22 am    Post subject: Re: Z101 in an RV-10 Reply with quote

My calculations are definitely on the conservative side. I distributed the loads such that I could fly on the Aux bus and Engine busses alone in IMC if I were to lose the primary alternator or otherwise had to shut down the main bus.

My aux bus looks like this:

Pitot Heat (7 Amps)
GTN 750 Xi GPS/NAV/COM (3.45 Amps)
G3X PFD 1 (2 Amps)
3x GSA28 Autopilot Servos (1.5 Amps)
3x Trim Servos (1.5 Amps)
GMA245 Audio Panel (1 Amp)
GTX 45R Transponder (1 Amp)
GEA24 (0.43 Amps)
#1 ADAHRS (0.2 Amps)
G5 Backup (0.2 Amps)
GMC 507 Autopilot (0.2 Amps)
#1 GMU11 (0.1 Amps)
Annunciator Panel (0.1 Amps)
Total: 18.7 Amps

Ideally I could quickly leave IMC and drop the pitot heat.

I expect in real life the engine will only draw about 14 Amps at cruise with only one pump running but I wanted to design things for worst case.

I'm planning a 60A primary alternator.


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Kellym



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1700
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

PostPosted: Wed Sep 08, 2021 7:20 am    Post subject: Z101 in an RV-10 Reply with quote

You don't need 3 trim servos. The pitch trim is all you need. You may
want aileron, but really neither rudder nor aileron is needed with an
autopilot. Once you get rudder fixed trim to fly straight and level in
trim, the forces for climb and descent are minimal. Especially since you
are planning on a yaw servo. Given your loads, you might want to explore
a 70 amp alternator..not a huge difference in cost, lets it operate on
lower percent of full load. Are you figuring nav lights and strobes in
your total? Probably under 3 amps if LED.

On 9/8/2021 7:22 AM, A Lumley wrote:
Quote:


My calculations are definitely on the conservative side. I distributed the loads such that I could fly on the Aux bus and Engine busses alone in IMC if I were to lose the primary alternator or otherwise had to shut down the main bus.

My aux bus looks like this:

Pitot Heat (7 Amps)
GTN 750 Xi GPS/NAV/COM (3.45 Amps)
G3X PFD 1 (2 Amps)
3x GSA28 Autopilot Servos (1.5 Amps)
3x Trim Servos (1.5 Amps)
GMA245 Audio Panel (1 Amp)
GTX 45R Transponder (1 Amp)
GEA24 (0.43 Amps)
#1 ADAHRS (0.2 Amps)
G5 Backup (0.2 Amps)
GMC 507 Autopilot (0.2 Amps)
#1 GMU11 (0.1 Amps)
Annunciator Panel (0.1 Amps)
Total: 18.7 Amps


Ideally I could quickly leave the IMC and drop the pitot heat.

I expect in real life the engine will only draw about 14 Amps at cruise with only one pump running but I wanted to design things for most case.

I'm planning a 60A primary alternator.




Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=503096#503096











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Ceengland



Joined: 11 Oct 2020
Posts: 378
Location: MS

PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2021 1:11 pm    Post subject: Z101 in an RV-10 Reply with quote

Also, trim load is *very* intermittent (extremely low total energy use),
and given that you can run one on a 9V transistor radio (remember
those?) battery, I'd want to verify even the .5A per servo number.
Same for comm; much lower continuous than when transmitting.
And I can't imagine me running both fuel pumps at once for any reason,
except TO/landing. If pressure drops, my technique would be switching
pumps rather than adding one.

On 9/8/2021 10:19 AM, Kelly McMullen wrote:
Quote:

<kellym(at)aviating.com>

You don't need 3 trim servos. The pitch trim is all you need. You may
want aileron, but really neither rudder nor aileron is needed with an
autopilot. Once you get rudder fixed trim to fly straight and level in
trim, the forces for climb and descent are minimal. Especially since
you are planning on a yaw servo. Given your loads, you might want to
explore a 70 amp alternator..not a huge difference in cost, lets it
operate on lower percent of full load. Are you figuring nav lights and
strobes in your total? Probably under 3 amps if LED.

On 9/8/2021 7:22 AM, A Lumley wrote:
>
> <andrew.lumley(at)sympatico.ca>
>
> My calculations are definitely on the conservative side. I
> distributed the loads such that I could fly on the Aux bus and Engine
> busses alone in IMC if I were to lose the primary alternator or
> otherwise had to shut down the main bus.
>
> My aux bus looks like this:
>
> Pitot Heat (7 Amps)
> GTN 750 Xi GPS/NAV/COM (3.45 Amps)
> G3X PFD 1 (2 Amps)
> 3x GSA28 Autopilot Servos (1.5 Amps)
> 3x Trim Servos (1.5 Amps)
> GMA245 Audio Panel (1 Amp)
> GTX 45R Transponder (1 Amp)
> GEA24 (0.43 Amps)
> #1 ADAHRS (0.2 Amps)
> G5 Backup (0.2 Amps)
> GMC 507 Autopilot (0.2 Amps)
> #1 GMU11 (0.1 Amps)
> Annunciator Panel (0.1 Amps)
> Total: 18.7 Amps
>


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johnbright



Joined: 14 Dec 2011
Posts: 165
Location: Newport News, VA

PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2021 3:42 pm    Post subject: Re: Z101 in an RV-10 Reply with quote

Re A Lumley RV-10 Electrical Schematic V1.0 from seventh post prior to this one.

Voltage regulators...

    Grounds are redundant, should go to separate points, ref install manual, failure of one is benign and not discoverable in flight or preflight. I put physical inspection on annual check list.

    Voltage sense draws 22mA at 12.5V (LR3C-14, measured in off state), parasitic load on battery 1 AH in 45 hours. I put the one for the aux regulator on the engine bus, ref schematic in signature, folder 1).

    I'm curious what voltage setpoints have been chosen for the main and aux regulators.


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A Lumley



Joined: 12 May 2021
Posts: 10
Location: Ontario, Canada

PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2021 3:58 am    Post subject: Re: Z101 in an RV-10 Reply with quote

Kelly, good point about the alternating pumps. Of course normally both pumps will be operating for takeoff and landing. The bus will be sized for both pumps to be operating but if the main alternator fails I guess there’s no reason for more than one pump at a time.

John, the 2 grounds will be independently grounded to the same ground bus. I can show that better in the schematic however. Also I didn’t realize that the sense pin had a parasitic draw when off, is that in the manual? I’ll revisit that. I plan on having the same voltage set points for both regulators. The aux will be normally off. If the main fails, I’ll get a low voltage indication and will take the main alternator offline manually before engaging the aux alternator.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2021 9:20 pm    Post subject: Z101 in an RV-10 Reply with quote

Quote:

I'm curious what voltage setpoints have been chosen for the main and aux regulators.

Why so expensive a regulator on the aux alternator?
That regulator will see perhaps a hand-full of hours
operation over the lifetime of the airplane under
Plan-B conditions where the need for lv warning
and ov protection is vanishingly small. That
alternator/regulator gets preflight tested each
flight-cycle. I.e. every tank full of fuel.

Since plan-b operations are stand-alone and
short duration, a full-up alternator controller
adds no value . . . only expense and complexity.


Bob . . .

Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2021 9:24 pm    Post subject: Z101 in an RV-10 Reply with quote

Quote:


Voltage regulators...

Grounds are redundant, should go to separate points, ref install manual, failure of
one is benign and not discoverable in flight or preflight. I put physical inspection
on annual check list.

But not necessary on a metal airplane where the
regulator is mounted on a high integrity airframe
ground . . . dual wired grounds are indicated
for non-metalic airframes where no 'natural',
high quality ground is available.


Bob . . .

Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2021 9:37 pm    Post subject: Z101 in an RV-10 Reply with quote

At 09:22 AM 9/8/2021, you wrote:
Quote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "A Lumley" <andrew.lumley(at)sympatico.ca>

My calculations are definitely on the conservative side. I distributed the loads such that I could fly on the Aux bus and Engine busses alone in IMC if I were to lose the primary alternator or otherwise had to shut down the main bus.

My aux bus looks like this:

Others have already suggested adjustments
to this list. I would add this suggestion:

Download the form at:

http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Load_Analysis/Blank_Form.pdf

This is similar to the form I and others used in
load analysis required for type certification of
part 23 and 25 aircraft.

Use a page per bus. Make a list of EACH feeder from
the bus that includes function label, protection
size and wire size. Then fill the blank with the
ENERGY CONSUMPTION value for each feeder under
each flight condition.

Intermittent loads are not part of the energy
consumption study. This includes transmit
current of comm radios. Taxi lights, landing
gear pump motors, trim actuators, etc.

The sums at the bottom of the form are used
to validate size selection of each power source
for adequacy to meet energy management design
goals.
`


Bob . . .

Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"


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